[Ian Andrew]

I faced this decision last winter.

Another firm asked me to step in and assist them with large project. I was hesitant about the location of the work. It wasn’t that I don’t like travel or I’m unwilling to step into new cultures. It was a country that didn’t fit my political views.

I'll be frank because it will help the discussion more by doing so.

I didn’t really want to take the work – but looking me square in the face was financial security and a new golf course project that I deeply coveted. The land was good, I had some design freedom and more than one course to work on.

I could have passed on the work – but I did not. I made the decision based upon the fulfilling my final goal of a new project as a solo designer and the financial security it brought my family.

You can be the judge – but I can honestly say I think I compromised on my principles.

You only know how strong your principles are till you face that decision. I had walked away from renovation work where I didn’t want to be the one to make the changes that weren’t right – but faced with this much money and a project that I desperately wanted I was obviously able to put aside that principled stand.

The answer for me was NO.

(The project got delayed last spring.)

[Matthew Hunt]

I believe a Golf club of the type of the of Old Head should not have been allowed.

Does anyone was approved pre or post the European planning laws of 1995. If post-1995 should the UK courts be following this predecent?

[Tom_Doak]

Matt W:

I was born in New York City, and I love the place.  But if you watch stuff about NYC on overseas television you would be scared out of your wits about going there.  That was my point ... our sources of information are limited and biased, and you never really know until you go there yourself.

At the same time, depending on their tolerance for risk, some people could fairly determine that it is NOT safe to go to New York City.  The crime rate may not be higher overall than in Traverse City, Michigan, but I'll bet you the crime rate AGAINST TOURISTS is indeed higher, because there are a lot more people there to take advantage of tourists.  People who are fearful of going there are more likely to be unfairly targeted.

[Bill Shamleffer]

I realize this is different, but...

SCOTUS chased the owners out of 15 waterfront homes in New London, CT, by upholding, IMO, a bogus eminent domain claim for commercial public use.

Seems to me that governments and individuals are capable of rationalizing all types of behaviors for the right amount of $$$$$$$...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300783_pf.html

Meg

The Supreme Court did not "chase out" the property owners.  The Supreme Court held that the use of eminent domain as enacted by  those elected officials was not in violation of the U.S. Constitution.  Although the decision is debatable (if it wasn't it would likely not be before the Supreme Court), the end result was by the decision of the the voters and elected officers in Connecticut.  They were not FORCED to evict anyone, the decision just held that this is a State matter.

As was posted by Jim Kennedy, other states are also entitled to make laws that do not allow this type of use of eminent domain by those state legislatures.

[Mike_Young]

I feel much safer in NYC than I do in Reading, PA.

Ian,
My Dad did business in Moscow, Bulgaria, Romania during the 70's and 80's and their political views did not quite fit with us but I wouldn't say he compromised himself.  I think the issue has less to do with the political views of the other country and more to do with your own behaviour and the behaviour of the individuals with whom your are dealing on that particular project.  I am sure their are plenty of fine Chinease businessmen worth doing business with despite what you think of the countries politics.  There's a little too much drama in this discussion...maybe a little of much ado about nothing. 

Agree.....

[Craig Sweet]

Guantanamo would be better suited for playing golf than housing prisoners..beyond saying more about how I feel about war crimes etc, I'll leave it at that...

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

My father was born in the Bronx -- not far from Yankee Stadium. I enter the city no less than three times per week for work.

The idea about what people perceive overseas to me is irrelevant. You stated your own feelings when you said, it's not safe to go to NYC. Let me point this out that total visits from people overseas is at its peak now because of a wide variety of reasons -- the exchange rate being one of them plus the nature of what people see as being a plus when visiting. If they thought it was a real problem they'd opt for other destinations.

You clarified your original statement but I read your first post on the subject quite clearly.

Tom, my "sources of information" are not "limited and biased" -- I reference using FBI stats and they say quite clearly that NYC is among the safest places to be when held against other comparable cites in the USA. Just check out where Phoenix stands or Houston or Philadelphia, shall I go on.

If people continue to believe that NYC is the same place as depicted from the 60's and 70's then they frankly are clueless on what is happening there now.

Tom, you say the crime rate against tourists is higher. Really? Is that just your gut talking or do you have some sort of info to base that upon? Check out the stats for tourist related crime in places like Miami or Los Angeles. As a percentage of total population the reality of NYC-based crime is far smaller.

Go through Times Square on just about any day and see the police presence. It's there and in full force. If you know NYC as it is today you would not be making such flippant comments on what is going on there now, with all due respect.

[MargaretC]

The Supreme Court did not "chase out" the property owners.  The Supreme Court held that the use of eminent domain as enacted by  those elected officials was not in violation of the U.S. Constitution.  Although the decision is debatable (if it wasn't it would likely not be before the Supreme Court), the end result was by the decision of the the voters and elected officers in Connecticut.  They were not FORCED to evict anyone, the decision just held that this is a State matter.

As was posted by Jim Kennedy, other states are also entitled to make laws that do not allow this type of use of eminent domain by those state legislatures.

Bill ~

You're absolutely correct.  My description was inaccurate and demonstrated my bias regarding CT's use of eminent domain in this case.

Meg

[Anthony Gray]

Craig:

If the Dalai Lama says it would be bad for us to boycott China en masse, then why do you want us to not build golf courses in China?

  I hear the Dalai Lama stiffs his caddies.

    Anthony

[Kalen Braley]

Guys...

Is the safety or lack there-of of NYC really the point of this thread?  I think Tom D made the general overall point well enough. I've been out of the country a few times myself and in some pretty sketchy areas, but the unsafest I've felt is right here in the USA in Oakland, CA.

Now back to topic where one would feel conflicted in what job they would or wouldn't take....

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

The issue of NYC simply needed to be clarified - I think the point you claim Tom D originally made needed to be further explored and corrected from a 2008 perspective.

Nuff said ...

[Anthony Gray]

   In all seriousness a new course in China would help many people. My wife is from a third world country and grew up without hot water and electricity at nite. Her father was a caddy for many years. The resorts give good jobs to people that would otherwise struggle. So whatever your political beliefs are it is a humanitarian gesture to provide jobs and finances for others in oppressed areas.

   Anthony

[Charlie Goerges]

Not to minimize the harm or good a golf course or real-estate development can do, but the idea that such a thing could be so bad seems a bit out there. Practically every major retailing or manufacturing company in this country (or any other country for that matter) is in one of the countries mentioned. If one can't ethically support the economy of a country like China, then I don't know very many ethical people.

As long as you're not building a course in a country whose government is called a "Junta" I think you're fine.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

If you'll read back my previous posts, I didn't make any comparisons between New York and Miami, or LA, or Phoenix, or any of the other places you mentioned.

If it's safer than it used to be, hooray for law and order, but to tell you the truth I didn't really mind it before.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Here's your direct quote, "Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me ... it's not safe to go to Detroit or NYC either."

You're right Tom - you simply stated NYC is the equivalent of Detroit. That's not the case and I simply added if you checked FBI stats you would see NYC is one of the more safer places to be -- even more so since 9/11. 

I added the aforementioned American cites -- one can throw in places like St. Louis, Memphis, Atlanta and a few others -- where the overall crime rate (as a percentage of total population) is higher than the Big Apple's.

There's no "If it's safer" -- the fact and stats provide that conclusion.

[Charlie Goerges]

Matt and Tom,

I think you guys are talking past one-another on this one. The way I understood Tom's original post on the safety was that perception equals reality. If our state department puts a "no-go" label because of incidents of violence in another country (or just because of threats) it might unfairly tarnish that country as unsafe, even if it is safe. In the same way, a person could be led to believe that New York City (or any city for that matter) is unsafe if the only source of information were the news. (i.e. the person who refuses to go there because the only time he/she ever hears about New York, the news is bad.)

In neither case is the perception of danger based in a statistical analysis.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tourist still go to the Victoria Falls, both on the Zimbabwean and Zambian side. No harm becomes them.

Go to Harare and you may well find a totally different attitude. Not because of the people but because the murderous regime of Robert Mugabe makes it so.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

Charlie:

Thank you for stating my point better than I did.

[Mike_Cirba]

*

[Anthony Butler]

At the same time, depending on their tolerance for risk, some people could fairly determine that it is NOT safe to go to New York City.  The crime rate may not be higher overall than in Traverse City, Michigan, but I'll bet you the crime rate AGAINST TOURISTS is indeed higher, because there are a lot more people there to take advantage of tourists.  People who are fearful of going there are more likely to be unfairly targeted.

My first job in NYC (Worldwide Plaza 48th/8th) was in the early 90s before Guiliani got hold of the city. During my travels to and from the office, I was constantly amazed by the number of people who stepped straight from the Times Square Marriott with their pale legs sticking out of their pleated Khaki shorts (look completed by madras shirt and fake leather 'bum bag' containing wallet, room keys and passport) then proceeded to unfold a map right on the corner of 8th Avenue and 43rd Street.

It was the urban equivalent of a herd of zebras walking past the lions on the way to the watering hole.

So a more accurate comment might be the CRIME RATE against IDIOTS from out-of-town are high in NYC.

I lived there from 1989-1992 without a breath of trouble for me or my out of town house guests. The advice I gave them is only slight less important today... Wear black. Get a cool pair of sunglasses. Don't ask too many questions on the Subway. Figure out where you're going before you leave your accommodations and they'll think you're one of the locals.

As far as politics goes, I turned down the opportunity to start a business with a guy simply because he got too much of his information from the Drudge Report.

You can't be too careful.

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

When you advise that you "can't be too careful" -- I would dare say that advice would need to be taken to the next level for such ideal night time gathering spots as DC, Detroit, Atlanta, Memphis, Phoenix and a host of other big time cities.

No doubt things can happen just about anywhere -- but when you account for 8 million people in a limited area the prevalence and absolute risk of crime when in the Big Apple is far less than the stats say or that reasonable perception can infer

NYPD does a superb job and the escalation of foreign tourists is proof positive of the gains many see when coming to the Apple. No doubt the exchange rate has much to do with it but people won't visit anyplace if they feel their basic day-to-day safety is at-risk.

[Anthony Butler]

NYPD does a superb job and the escalation of foreign tourists is proof positive of the gains many see when coming to the Apple. No doubt the exchange rate has much to do with it but people won't visit anyplace if they feel their basic day-to-day safety is at-risk.

Matt,

How you can possibly say New York isn't the most dangerous city in the world? NY Giant Plaxico Burress just got shot by his own gun...

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