[JohnV]

The article below talks about some times when politics and golf course architecture didn't mesh very well:

http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article10030801.aspx

A quote from Barbara Hanley, who was a consultant on golf course design business issues:

“They have a moral responsibility, but in the real business world I can’t imagine one of the marquis designers turning down a job because he didn’t like the politics or the human rights record of some regime,” Hanley says. “Social issues just are not on their radar. They come in and every piece of land is the greatest, most unique land they’ve ever seen, and when things get complicated their checks have already been cashed and they’ve moved on. I’ve sat in on so many of these meetings and I felt like I better duck for all the b.s. that was flying around the room.”

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd turn it down, you have to live with the developer for a couple of years...could be very painful

[John Moore II]

In a situation like that one in the article, yeah, I'd turn down that job. But as far as a job within the United States, I could probably take any job. But as far as working for Raul Castro or something, I think not.

[Tom_Doak]

Forced removal of an entire village is not what I would term a "political issue," but I doubt the example cited is the only place where something like that has happened.  Lots of poor countries have ambiguous land-ownership issues ... so virtually any project in east Asia (or even Mexico) could have an issue over that kind of stuff, and that's pretty hard for golf architects to police.

Certainly, though, Cary is right in the sense that someone has to live over there and get the course built, so you don't want to get involved in a mess.

[Mike_Young]

Now say a company like Dole pineapple or someone came in a kicked out the small farmers in favor of a mega farm?  Would that be accepted.
What we do here is give the Native Americans reservations and then build the courses on their land...just the opposite....

Naw, I would not turn down a job based on political issues.....maybe humanitarian issues but not politics....

have any of you ever read the unibomber's manifesto?   www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html

not every country is into industrialization and issues arise but are they political, economic or humanitarian? 

[Rich Goodale]

A quote from Barbara Hanley, who was a consultant on golf course design business issues:

“They have a moral responsibility, but in the real business world I can’t imagine one of the marquis designers turning down a job because he didn’t like the politics or the human rights record of some regime,”

"The best of all the 'marquis' designers, IMHO, was the Marquis de Sade."

Jean-Paul Parodi

[astavrides]

good article.  thanks.

[BCrosby]

Striking about the article is how similar those disputes sound to the disputes from 250 years ago in England and Scotland over the partition of the "commons". The issues then weren't about developing golf courses, but the political issues, iirc, were similar. Both were about working out definitions of property rights.

Others will recall their British history better than I.

Perhaps I'm an outlier. I wouldn't take the job nor would I pay to play golf there.

Bob

   

[Craig Sweet]

 I asked this question back during the Olympics...would you do a job in China because of their politics toward Tibet...for example...or their human rights record...

I hope there's someone out there saying no when the Chinese come knocking...

[MargaretC]

I realize this is different, but...

SCOTUS chased the owners out of 15 waterfront homes in New London, CT, by upholding, IMO, a bogus eminent domain claim for commercial public use.

Seems to me that governments and individuals are capable of rationalizing all types of behaviors for the right amount of $$$$$$$...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300783_pf.html

Meg

[Kalen Braley]

Craig,

That stuff can be applied in almost any situation...even here at home.

"Would you work in America given the war and billions of taxpayers dollars they are spending in Iraq?"

[Craig Sweet]

Margaret....that was a bogus eminent domain case...a real stretch of "for the common good".....considering eminent domain essentially built this country...from utility projects, to the Interstate Hwy system, to our public school system, it was disturbing to see the Court rule the way it did in CT...

What if that had been a golf course in New London instead of office and commercial development?  

[Craig Sweet]

Kalen...slight difference...there is less separation between the government and corporations in China...often they are one and the same...in America we do have some separation....I can boycott businesses that profit from war...I can vote out a government that enters into a war I disagree with...and if I wish to be so bold, I can withhold tax payments that support a crooked government.

Consumer boycotts do work....only rarely do full on government sanctions and boycotts against another country work...in fact they often harm more people than they help...thousands died in South Africa due to boycotts, hundreds of thousands died in Iraq due to sanctions and boycotts....the Dali Lama said many Tibetans would die if our government enacted a full on boycott with heavy sanctions on China...

[MargaretC]

What if that had been a golf course in New London instead of office and commercial development?  

Craig:

My bias is showing, but I'd rather have the waterfront CT land used for a muni than an office/shopping complex...  Even still, IMO, it's no less wrong for a government to kick folks out of their homes for purely commercial purposes regardless as to how it improves the tax base.

Meg

[Tom_Doak]

Craig:

If the Dalai Lama says it would be bad for us to boycott China en masse, then why do you want us to not build golf courses in China?

I am probably naive, but I do believe that golf at its roots promotes independence and freedom.  (However, I am sure that the Coca-Cola Company would say the same thing about drinking Coke.)

Have you ever been to China?  One of the scariest things to me is learning recently how many places our State Department believes it is "not safe" for Americans to travel.  Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me ... it's not safe to go to Detroit or NYC either.

[Jim_Kennedy]

MargaretC,
One good thing emanating from this case: over 40 states have taken action to avoid the same situation that happened in New London.

[Matthew Hunt]

Some people still think Northern Ireland is a 'Dangerous' place but in reality it is more crime-free than all but 1 US state, people can mis-judge a country.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom, the DL was asked if women and children would die if the US, and the rest of the world, placed heavy sanctions on China over their policy toward Tibet...he said yes...much as innocent people died by the hundreds of thousands in Iraq and South Africa...he said, do not boycott, do not place sanctions on China...but put pressure on them as appropriate...

How appropriate is it for a US business to do business with the Chinese is up to each and every business...that is a decision you have to make....I happen to be a firm believer that many small acts add up in the large scheme of things....not buying grapes for example...it took a long while, but drew a lot attention to the plight of the farm worker and eventually worked...

[Bill_McBride]

Striking about the article is how similar those disputes sound to the disputes from 250 years ago in England and Scotland over the partition of the "commons". The issues then weren't about developing golf courses, but the political issues, iirc, were similar. Both were about working out definitions of property rights.   

Painswick Golf Club is on common ground.  You always have to be on the lookout for picnickers and dog walkers, and they have the right of way.

[Bob_Huntley]

John,

I know someone that was offered what seemed like a lucrative package to represent a project in Europe. Before accepting, he made enquiries of the locals and found a very deep seated hostility toward the owner/developer concerning ancestral rights of way.

He declined the offer.

Bob

[Chip Gaskins]

Craig-

I have been to China though I don't have a horse in this race (thread) per se but I would like to hear your views on Guantanamo Bay?

Thanks,
Chip

[John Moore II]

Craig-

I have been to China though I don't have a horse in this race (thread) per se but I would like to hear your views on Guantanamo Bay?

Thanks,
Chip

What views on Guantanamo? The prisoners or the base itself? I'd really rather not address either one because of the political undercurrents that go with discussing things like this.

[Tom_Doak]

Bob:

Incidentally, we ran into that same problem when we were working on a routing for the Old Head course years ago ... the hostility in the local community toward fencing off the land [even though it had always been privately owned but publicly trod] to turn it into a golf course ran VERY deep.

As a result I was not too sorry when we wound up not getting the job.

But, to go back to Craig's point, that was an individual situation that I couldn't have known much about in advance.  In another circumstance, I might already have been under contract to do the job when I found out what was really going on.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

You are joking when you say, "it's not safe to go ... or to NYC either."

Tom, check out the FBI stats for crime in the Big Apple and you'll find it's one of the safest places to be for a large community. I can list a number of sunbelt areas -- like Phoenix and a few others -- where the overall crime rate is much higher.

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob:

Incidentally, we ran into that same problem when we were working on a routing for the Old Head course years ago ... the hostility in the local community toward fencing off the land [even though it had always been privately owned but publicly trod] to turn it into a golf course ran VERY deep.

As a result I was not too sorry when we wound up not getting the job.

But, to go back to Craig's point, that was an individual situation that I couldn't have known much about in advance.  In another circumstance, I might already have been under contract to do the job when I found out what was really going on.

Tom,

I was the person approached.

Bob

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