[Sean_A]

Melvyn

Can't you find a game with like minded golfers?  

While I agree that golf on its edges looks pretty rough these days, I don't fear this rise of events because most of it has been around for ages and so long as its all under control I don't care.  For cryin out loud, I don't take golf seriously enough to be put off by some hoopin' n hollerin' - folks are just enjoying themeselves.  The one part of modern golf I absolutely don't like is cart paths because they interfere with the game both visually and physically.  But I don't have to play courses like this - its a big world.  Now if we are talking theoretically, such as the divide between Mike Y's golfers and those who play golf, then sure, there is a lot I would personally change, but that doesn't make it right or better unless I am the only voter.  

Golf is certainly spiced up with traditions, but traditions shouldn't rule the game, at least not for those who don't want to be ruled in this way.  I say live and let live, and that is not because I fear for the game, I don't have any fear for the game and I truly believe that those who say they are in fear are nearly always those who are in the business.  I say live and let live because its a sound policy, indeed, more sound than the pound.  

BTW  I can think of few things better than firing up a cigar and swigging from a tin of lager as I play a leisurely 9 holes during a summer's evening.  So I can't go along with the alcohol deal.  Its bad for my karma.

Happy Thanksgiving

Ciao    

[Kalen Braley]

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html

[Kalen Braley]

Ahhh, here we go.  This photo is compliment of Joel Z... this looks about right.  The American golfer!! 

[Kalen Braley]

More hi-jinks from the Joel-ster.

The file is titled Melyvn.  Just Joshing big guy   

[Carl Rogers]

Boy , I thought I was a hard butt...

I think - believe there are cultural - religious reasons why golf started in Scotland and began to fluorish there in the world of John Calvin and the Presbyterian Church.  For every action there is a reaction.  In a highly simplified explanation, Presbyterianism was the result of the Reformation without the Roman Catholic church, (also the Scots of course could not go along with the Church of England).  Thus golf was the perfect 'pastime' for a people meant to suffer on earth and be redeemed in heaven.  

Clearly, some on this site, get upset when others do not show the proper level of suffering when it comes to golf.

I think the real problems of golf today are as follows in no particular order:
- slow play
- sandbagging
- environmental (using up too much water, pesticides, herbicides, fertilizer, etc)
- access - learning for youngsters, the real future of the game

[Joel Zuckerman]

I think the real problems of golf today are as follows in no particular order:
- slow play
- sandbagging

Yes!  I was surprised that in all the energy spent talking about boozing, reckless cart-driving and hooting/hollering, nobody mentioned the scourge of sand-bagging, OR--to call it quite plainly--cheating!

This is as virulent a disease as anything else out there, with the foot-wedging, gimme-putting, and convenient forgetting of stokes taken.  I wonder--why is it that nobody in the history of golf has ever said they made 5 when they really made 4?  Why is it ALWAYS the opposite?

[Rob Rigg]

Joel,

Cheating is specifically mentioned above in my statement about "modern" golf, along with etiquette.

[Tom Huckaby]

What's unclear to me is how the modern game means the death of the game, or is the Dark Age of golf.

Why must there be any one absolute way to enjoy this game?

I too have raced carts, drank too much, played cross-country golf, and done other things that would seemingly give Melvyn conniption fits.  But I have also played with hickories many times, gone to the UK to enjoy the links golf and atmosphere many times, donned plus fours, etc.  It's all golf to me, different ways to enjoy it, and I don't see how one is any better than the other, to be honest. 

And of course the greatest given of all is this:  one's actions just plain should never serve to the detriment of the enjoyment of the group. Add to the enjoyment, don't take away.  Keep that in mind and I think you'll always be OK.  Sometimes this might mean absolute adherence to the rules, walking, fierce competition... other times it might mean racing carts and drinking beer.  To everything, turn turn turn. 

In the end I think Sean Arble nails it:

Golf is certainly spiced up with traditions, but traditions shouldn't rule the game, at least not for those who don't want to be ruled in this way.  I say live and let live, and that is not because I fear for the game, I don't have any fear for the game and I truly believe that those who say they are in fear are nearly always those who are in the business.  I say live and let live because its a sound policy, indeed, more sound than the pound. 

Live and let live, for sure.

Happy thanksgiving to one and all.

And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the....

whoops!  sorry, tangent.

In the end, if this is the dark age of golf, well I'm pretty happy I'm living in it.  The lighter ages must have been something else though!

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gentlemen

Thank you for your response although some still have a way to go before actually understanding yet I believe that the Spirit of Golf is alive.

Please understand I am not against change and neither was Old Tom (the example of the Feathery v the Gutta Percha ball). Golf does stand still, it moves with the times but that does not mean change for change sake. Each change must be looked at in detail and the potential consequences considered before allowing change. My concern is that Carts, electronic aids, etc. have been allowed on our courses but without proper care or consideration. No thought of the potential problems that they in their own right may cause. Example, the humble cart, a good idea to help those who need them to play the game, but no one seemed to consider the heavy impact of the cart, cart tracks and the way they scar the course, nor was it at the time considered a method of transporting healthy golfers or those with booze, perhaps with the exception of a hipflask.

Distance Markers followed by electronic distance aids again initially just to give a guide as to the distance to the pin, but in the early days no one again expected that the modern golfer would more or less worship at the distance shrine. Both have in their ways corrupted the game (I accept the wording my not be to your choosing), but it was not intentional. We or should I say those that approve these items need to look at the bigger picture, to try and understand the potential problems as well as the benefits. This takes time and requires a resolve to protect the game and its core values. This resolve is what I believe is actually missing, money appears to be the core interest of our Governing Bodies.

Football, Rugby, Cricket has utilised new technology without the need to change the size and shape of their playing areas, I believe that also applies to baseball and basket ball. Equipment has been updated but not to the determent of the game or the players.

I would accept most clubs/balls as long as it is a standard through the world and designed with some consistency and longevity.

I have an interest in the game that probably goes further and deeper than most on this site. Some may understand, although many may not. So it is for this reason that this will be my last post.

Enjoy your golf, but try and remember why you started playing in the first place and if it was through your father, then you may be able to understand me a little.

Melvyn

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvyn:

You have to trust us; we do understand you and the unique position you have for family reasons.

You just also have to try to understand that for many of us, the world of golf and the world in general is quite different that what you aspire to, and what you would have us aspire to.

If it indeed is an all or nothing, take it or leave it, my way or the highway, then I suppose the highway it must be.  Our world is not like yours; this is not 1870 nor is it Scotland.  Our realities are just plain different than yours.

Hopefully you can come to understand this, and see that the spirit of golf did not end in 1870... but rather evolves and takes many different forms.

But most hopefully this latest statement declaring your last post is the same as all others preceding it; that is more a statement of frustration than fact.

Again all the best to you, Melvyn.  Here's hoping we read much more from you.

TH

[Marty Bonnar]

Melvyn,
first of all, I must say that you are correct in everything you say, and in the main, I have a tendency of agreement with all of it,

but...

I would like to add some other material to the mix, if I may.

I have golfed, dined, lived, DRANK!  with many of the fine gentlemen and ladies of this website on both sides of the pond. To a man/woman, they are people who, I unequivocally guarantee, you would find to be of the best kind. They, like you and I, have the very best interests of our game at heart. They appreciate the art, history, culture and very soul of our joint pastime as well as, if not better, than you or I. (for they have enjoyed the benefit of distance in time and space from the somewhat claustrophobic atmosphere of British golf).

Please trust me when I say that (here I had begun a list of all the wonderful people I have met via GCA, but had to stop when I realised I have not the mental capacity for remembering so MANY people that I might omit a good friend and thus be hugely embarrased). They LOVE our game, its many facets, the grounds upon which it is played and especially the history and tradition which it possesses.

However,
they unfortunately have to live in their real world (whether they like it or not)...one of organised play, of fixed tee times, of proscribed cart use, of the ever invasive effects of technology, of the more insidious effects of modern life of the computer-savvy influx of this generation. WE live in a daft ever-developing environment. Yes, we can protect and encourage PROPER traditional values, but us old buffers have to accept that for our game to survive, perhaps other versions of it will have to evolve.

Perhaps golf has to adapt Darwinianally - or maybe its just a religion?

very best as always,
FBD.

[Greg Krueger]

Melvyn, Do you mean your last post on this subject, or your last post period? I would hope your last post on this subject!!

[Rich Goodale]

why is it that nobody in the history of golf has ever said they made 5 when they really made 4?  Why is it ALWAYS the opposite?

How soon we forget Roberto "I am a Stupid!" DiVincenzo......

[Anthony Gray]

   Is golf affected by culture? Are the differences in society reflected in the way we approach golf? I approach the game differently when I am in Scotland as opposed to when I am in my neighborhood,

   Anthony

[Tony_Muldoon]

Boy , I thought I was a hard butt...

I think - believe there are cultural - religious reasons why golf started in Scotland and began to fluorish there in the world of John Calvin and the Presbyterian Church.  For every action there is a reaction.  In a highly simplified explanation, Presbyterianism was the result of the Reformation without the Roman Catholic church, (also the Scots of course could not go along with the Church of England).  Thus golf was the perfect 'pastime' for a people meant to suffer on earth and be redeemed in heaven.  

Clearly, some on this site, get upset when others do not show the proper level of suffering when it comes to golf.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the formation of the first Golf Clubs were all about the social activities and specifically the DRINKING.  The Honourable Company, The Blackheath Golfers etc. Detailed records exist as to their vast liquid consumption, frustratingly so for historians who'd prefer more info on their golfing habits.  I can't see the difference between an afternoons foursome after  bottle of Claret and a full glass of Kummel, a quick trip to Mrs Forman’s or  someone discretely consuming a six pack (as long as they don't leave the empties around). Social habits change their form. The quantities of Port consumed at the early Heathland courses was most impressive.

Mike has written an excellent post above, but if anyone would like to read about the adventures of someone who used his golfing abilities for Social Climbing read, The Autobiography of Alexander Carlyle.  Human nature hasn't changed one bit.  I don't have it here but I believe it was first published around 1810.

If the number of 'golfers' is to grow then more changes to the game will be necessary.  I anticipate that in the future there will be a lot more places where I would not want to play golf but that a significant number of courses and clubs that interest me, will remain.  I believe there are more ot the later than I will ever have time to visit.

Pollyanna Muldoon?

[Rich Goodale]

Boy , I thought I was a hard butt...

I think - believe there are cultural - religious reasons why golf started in Scotland and began to fluorish there in the world of John Calvin and the Presbyterian Church.  For every action there is a reaction.  In a highly simplified explanation, Presbyterianism was the result of the Reformation without the Roman Catholic church, (also the Scots of course could not go along with the Church of England).  Thus golf was the perfect 'pastime' for a people meant to suffer on earth and be redeemed in heaven.  

Clearly, some on this site, get upset when others do not show the proper level of suffering when it comes to golf.

I think the real problems of golf today are as follows in no particular order:
- slow play
- sandbagging
- environmental (using up too much water, pesticides, herbicides, fertilizer, etc)
- access - learning for youngsters, the real future of the game

Carl

My understanding is that the Scottish Reformation, whilst a generation or so after Henry VIII was very much against the Catholic Church, just like all Reformations of the time.  The Church of England in Scotland is and always was just a small rump set of expatriate congregations.  One only has to venture a short way from the 1st tee of the Old Course in St. Andrews to see the evidence of the anti-Catholic essence of the Scottish Reformation--the spot where Wishart was burned at the stake, the town Cathedral which was laid to waste (and in whose grounds Melivin's Great Grandfather is buried), etc. , etc.

My in-laws are Catholic, and every tgime they pass a beautiful Church of Scotland building that used to be Catholic (e.g. Dornoch Cathedral) are heard to mutter--"there's another trophy stolen by the pillaging Prods...."

Rich

PS--very much agree with you on sandbagging, but I would extend it to the heart of the problem, which is the general issue of handicapping.  Sorry to say this, Melvyn, but as far as I can see this abomination of the purity of games and/or sports was invented by the Scots.....

j-p p

[Garland Bayley]

Ahhh, here we go.  This photo is compliment of Joel Z... this looks about right.  The American golfer!! 

Kalen,

We know you went to minimal expense to have your portrait made. But, did you have to share it with us?

[Garland Bayley]

...
  Many golfres in the US use golf to escape the stresses of life. The course is a place where you go to unwind. Unwinding at times is more important than the gentelmans game of golf. This unwinding includes consumption of large amounts of alcohol and driving carts like a bat uot of hell.
...

I have to call BS on this. Ask you doctor which would relieve more stress. Walking a brisk 18 carrying a bag, or consuming large amount of alcohol and driving a cart.

You simply are making an argument for childish, selfish, self-absorbed behavior.

[Andy Hughes]

IMHO our Game of Golf is really in crisis, we have been in The Dark Ages for years yet very few people have seemed to notice or are just not bothered.
We have introduced aids to get us over the course using all the excuses under the sun. Drunks are allowed to roam our courses upsetting and offending golfers. If that is not bad enough mature adults with total disregard for others and surely what can only be described as contempt for golf race carts on our golf courses. To compound the problem intelligent and able golfers have allowed themselves to fall into the trap of using artificial distance aids thus finding it difficult to wean themselves off these toys. An over exaggeration perhaps, but then perhaps not.

There are 17,000 or so golf courses in the United States, thousands more around the world. How many have drunks roaming the course offending others? How many of these thousands of courses truly suffer from people racing carts on them?  Presumably Melvyn you believe the number to be quite high as you call this the Dark Age and claim we are in crisis--what do you believe this high number actually is and what do you base that on?

To those of you who feel that the current standards are acceptable and that they are not hurting golf, well all I can say it that is your right in a free society.  I therefore feel I would be wasting my breath if I tried to persuade you to the contrary. If there are any others on this site that feel that our game is being harmed, don’t hold back, speak your mind and raise the points with your friends & clubs/courses.

Raise drinking on the course as causing a Dark Age of golf with my friends? And what should be my response when they call me a dolt and casually mention that drinking has ALWAYS been a part of the game and why is it suddenly today the cause of such crisis but not the prior several hundred years?

I maybe considered by many to be aggressive, insulting and generally anti anyone who does not agree with my opinions, but at least I am trying to point out the problems albeit as I see them.

See them? Where exactly do you see them? Where do you see the hordes of drunks roaming our courses, or the phalanxes of Andrettis racing about?

In 10 years they may well be saying who is D Ross, Mackenzie, Tillinghast, Colt etc., etc., is this what you all want, if not then do something as clearly many don’t agree with my approach.

Why wait 10 years?  Try it now--go ask some random sample of golfers who Colt is.  Wanna bet on the results?

I will continue to voice my opinion, whether it appears to make sense or comes over as aggressive, because I believe that there is something there to fight for. Yet, my game in GB is not threatened as it is in other parts of the world, perhaps it has much to do with our club scene which still has a belief in upholding some sort of etiquette on the courses.

So the problem you see, the excessive drunkeness and waves of racing carts, are not an issue where you are? Then where exactly have you been witness to such exhibitions?

[Rob Rigg]

Garland! Garland! Garland!

[Joe Hancock]

All I have to say is this:

High maintenance.

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

"There is a problem with golf IMHO"

Actually Melvyn, I think YOU have a problem with golf...it has evolved into something you find objectionable....so be it. 

Many, myself included, look at the changes and have either adapted, or moved on...

Yeah, I think there is a HUGE problem with golf....for the most part the best courses are too expensive for the average person to play...

I started playing golf when I was around 10 years old....I did it for something to do with my friends....and I continue to play golf today....to do something with my friends....sometimes that means we ride carts and drink, and act goofy....sometimes we have serious matches....most times we don't even keep score...and sometimes we don't hit from between the tee markers...and sometimes we give each other automatic two putts and move on....but no matter how we play, we have fun and enjoy our time on the course...

The ONLY problem I see with golf is the expense might keep me form playing and having fun...

[Anthony Gray]

...
  Many golfres in the US use golf to escape the stresses of life. The course is a place where you go to unwind. Unwinding at times is more important than the gentelmans game of golf. This unwinding includes consumption of large amounts of alcohol and driving carts like a bat uot of hell.
...

I have to call BS on this. Ask you doctor which would relieve more stress. Walking a brisk 18 carrying a bag, or consuming large amount of alcohol and driving a cart.

You simply are making an argument for childish, selfish, self-absorbed behavior.

  Garland ,

  I do not include my self in this group, but I witness it almost every weekend.

   Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

...
  Many golfres in the US use golf to escape the stresses of life. The course is a place where you go to unwind. Unwinding at times is more important than the gentelmans game of golf. This unwinding includes consumption of large amounts of alcohol and driving carts like a bat uot of hell.
...

I have to call BS on this. Ask you doctor which would relieve more stress. Walking a brisk 18 carrying a bag, or consuming large amount of alcohol and driving a cart.

You simply are making an argument for childish, selfish, self-absorbed behavior.

  Garland ,

  I do not include my self in this group, but I witness it almost every weekend.

   Anthony

As you probably understand, I do not include you in this group. I was just saying that I believe the medical evidence would indicate that their behavior is not a stress reliever that walking and play without excessive alcohol drinking would be. So let us not give the impression that they are relieving stress. I think that if you read Melvyn carefully he is not advocating no drinking on the course, just the excessive drinking. I have no problem with responsible drinking on course and it would seem to be a performance enhancer for some that I play with, or at least my wallet seems to tell me that.

[David Lott]

Melvyn--You need to get out more. If you don't like where you are playing, find another place to play. Your will be happier, and so will the drunks.

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