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Melvyn Morrow

The Dark Age of Golf
« on: November 26, 2008, 11:24:32 AM »

IMHO our Game of Golf is really in crisis, we have been in The Dark Ages for years yet very few people have seemed to notice or are just not bothered.

We have introduced aids to get us over the course using all the excuses under the sun. Drunks are allowed to roam our courses upsetting and offending golfers. If that is not bad enough mature adults with total disregard for others and surely what can only be described as contempt for golf race carts on our golf courses. To compound the problem intelligent and able golfers have allowed themselves to fall into the trap of using artificial distance aids thus finding it difficult to wean themselves off these toys. An over exaggeration perhaps, but then perhaps not.

What saddens me even more is that on this site there are those who condone this behaviour. Accepting that drink is to be tolerated on a course as well as other activities and then have the audacity to say “calling golf and cart golf 2 different games seems ridiculous”. What’s ridicules is how we have allowed the standards in golf to fall to these levels. I accept the idea of equality but to achieve it by going down to the lowest common denominator is IMO the wrong way to go.

To those of you who feel that the current standards are acceptable and that they are not hurting golf, well all I can say it that is your right in a free society.  I therefore feel I would be wasting my breath if I tried to persuade you to the contrary. If there are any others on this site that feel that our game is being harmed, don’t hold back, speak your mind and raise the points with your friends & clubs/courses.

I maybe considered by many to be aggressive, insulting and generally anti anyone who does not agree with my opinions, but at least I am trying to point out the problems albeit as I see them. Will no others come forward, those who feel as passionately about golf as I do, will you not come forward and fight the good fight for all of us who still believe that there is something to fight for. Forget the flag waving. This is about golfers, wanting to play the game the way we were brought up with it. Or am I alone and only supporting my own interests & beliefs

Will there be any interest in history if we allow the drunks and the part timers to take over the game. In 10 years they may well be saying who is D Ross, Mackenzie, Tillinghast, Colt etc., etc., is this what you all want, if not then do something as clearly many don’t agree with my approach.

I will continue to voice my opinion, whether it appears to make sense or comes over as aggressive, because I believe that there is something there to fight for. Yet, my game in GB is not threatened as it is in other parts of the world, perhaps it has much to do with our club scene which still has a belief in upholding some sort of etiquette on the courses.

As for the architects on this forum, you also have a major part to play. Accepting commissions when you know that the concept is flawed before you start, hurts the game. Yes, you have to eat, and someone else will accept the job but that does not negate your own responsibility to yourself. If you want to steer us through these Dark Ages you must stand or fight from within. Agree or disagree with me, fine but you are the front. Or are you ultimately just making a living out of golf as the passion has been totally eroded due to the mundane courses developers require to sell their new houses? You are our first and last line of defence. What can you do to help revert the fortunes of our game of golf?
 
Melvyn

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 11:32:12 AM »
Melvin,

I take it you have never owned or operated a golf course in order to feed your family? Since, in essence you are asking people, both architects and owners, to make a financial sacrifice for the good of the game, tell us what financial sacrifices you have made to further this cause?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 11:47:56 AM »

Pete

I was expecting replies alone the lines you posted. 

You must decide what you believe is right or wrong for the good of your family.

I do not run a course or involved in running a course. But I have run a few small companies and one of the biggest problems in the modern world of business is forgetting what your core business is and who you are catering for and why.

How things are to be done, if at all, is why I posted this topic.

Melvyn

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 11:56:27 AM »
Melvin:

I highly respect and enjoy reading your opinions even though I disagree with many of them. 

On the drinking issue:  I highly doubt that is a new issue.  Did this ruin the game?



Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 12:10:18 PM »
Jason

All things in moderation, nothing wrong with a glass of Ginger Beer either.

Melvyn

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 12:10:28 PM »
Melvyn:

   I'm not sure what the factual basis is for your assertion that drunks are allowed to roam courses upsetting golfers.  This is certainly not happening at my club or anywhere else I have played in the US or overseas.

Likewise, with respect to your assertion that "mature adults with total disregard for others and surely what can only be described as contempt for golf race carts on our golf courses" I don't see this and I am confident that I see far more cart users in a year than you do.  I am a devoted walker and will continue to be for as long as I am physically able.  My father, however, is in his late 60's and has had two hips replaced and suffers from back problems.  But for the use of a cart, he would not be able to play the game.  He certainly does not race golf carts around our course with disregard for anyone.  Indeed, those that I know who use carts are almost all situated similarly to my father.  My club has a strong caddy program and we encourage walking. In fact, I do not like what carts do to the course but I'll be damned if I view my father or anyone else that needs to use a cart as a sign of the dark age of golf or that they are a sign of declining standards.  To the contrary, these are the people that taught most of us to love the game and appreciate architecture and but for physical infirmities would be walking.

With respect to your view that the appreciation of architecture and the work of golden age architects is in decline.  Come to the East Coast of the United States sometime. Better yet, pay attention to some of the postings on this message board.  Contrary to your assertion, many many golden age club, including mine, have recently re-discovered the importance of their architectural heritage and are re-integrating design elements lost over time in an effort to recapture elements that made those courses great.  combined with this, the profile of architects like Mac, Ross, Flynn, Colt etc., are probably higher now than ever due to websites like this and a renewed interest in and appreciation for their work.

There is plenty wrong with the game Melvyn but a hell of a lot more that's right with it.  Stop posting and get out there and take a look.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 12:14:01 PM »

How things are to be done, if at all, is why I posted this topic.

Melvyn


It has been quite some time since landed gentry golfed over common ground, prepared by your ancestors, with tradesman carrying their clubs and I'm sure bottles, under their armpits. I doubt many involved were in it solely for the love of the game; namely participating to secure a livelyhood for their families. How exactly have things changed in these days? I had no problem paying 25 pounds to play your beloved Old Course on my honeymoon in 1986; I do however, balk at the 175 pound green fee that is now the norm. Feel free to make lowering the non-resident green fee at the Home of Golf your personal crusade to better the game! I wish you luck in your endevour.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2008, 12:15:56 PM »
I admit that I am a cart racer.  When I see a cart in front of me I just can't help but try to get where we are going faster through either speed or wits.  It never hurts to crouch way low to help aerodynamics as it works better than the ole rocking motion that makes little sense at all.  I do not know a single golfer who will not choose the fastest cart in the fleet if they are privy to the information.

Anthony Gray

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 12:21:09 PM »


  To All,

  After haveing golfed many places I can truly say that golf courses, resorts, and club memberships have different personalities. Personally my club is very informal and the golf IQ of the membership is low. At times I will do things there that I would never do elsewhere. When I am at a club/course that respects the game I behave with all do respect.

  One little story. At my home club occasionally I will wear orange plus fours for the heck of it. I would never wear these in Scotland or The Honors etc.
But at the home course some find it entertaining so I give them what they want. On a par five one day I went ahead believing that one of my playing partners was waiting for the green to clear. Insted he was laying up and hit a very poor shot. He loudly complained the rest of this hole that my pants distracted him. This continued on to the next tee. So at the next tee I was tired of it so I said "Let's see what your excuse is going to be on this hole." So I took my pants off and got a par pantsless compared to his bogey.

   I would never do this at the Buda Cup but I am playing Holston Hills in a week.

  I do understand Melvyn's point that we are looseing the sacredness of the game. But golf is subjective and means different things to different people. Fewer and fewer people are grasping the roots of the game.

   Anthony



Anthony Gray

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2008, 12:22:46 PM »
Jason

All things in moderation, nothing wrong with a glass of Ginger Beer either.

Melvyn

  I thought Ginger Beer has no alcohol.

  Anthony

« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 12:24:33 PM by Anthony Gray »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2008, 12:25:27 PM »
Jason

All things in moderation, nothing wrong with a glass of Ginger Beer either.
Melvyn

Melvyn:

We can agree on that one.  




Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2008, 12:27:05 PM »
Jason

All things in moderation, nothing wrong with a glass of Ginger Beer either.

Melvyn

  I thought Ginger Beer has no alcohol.

  Anthony



According to my Google search - traditionally brewed - 11%.  It can be made without Alcohol but I suspect the stand on the Old Course fell within the traditional category.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2008, 12:30:18 PM »
Rory

Pity you have not bothered reading my previous posts as you will have noticed that I have said that those that NEED assistance to play a game should be provided with the mobility to do so. I am pleased your father still plays cart assisted or not. My Uncle used a cart when he was in his late 80’s to play 9 holes as slow on his feet but then at 87 what you expect.

Is yours a private club?

As for getting out there I have taken two years off work (unpaid to research the 19th Century courses). Not just playing for my own pleasure but undertaken research for all the clubs. To date some 150 plus clubs have benefitted from items and information I have uncovered. 

As for drunks on carts, speak to clubs/courses ask they what problems have they experienced and listen to their answers. Carts are rolled and people hurt when investigated it was down to morons racing on a course with youngster playing. Lucky no deaths that I have come across yet.

Tell me “What are you doing for your club or the game in general”?

Melvyn


John Kavanaugh

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2008, 12:31:47 PM »
I believe that Ballyneal fits the model that Melvyn desires.  The great thing about the US system is that because of our private/public model a golfer can find any niche that they choose.  I know that if the clubs where I belong had to resort to allowing a bunch of tourist play so I could afford to play myself I would grow as disillusioned as Melvyn is with the game.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2008, 12:33:54 PM »
Melvyn, There are examples were the offenders  have been removed from specific courses after they ran roughshot over it. But, those examples are few and far between.

I know exactly what you are trying to say, and I'm of the school that doesn't condone the behaviors you speak of, but rather, realize the futility in trying to change it. Rule 35 is the only applicable solution should the problem be so aggravating.

I've sought out courses for varying reasons and have learned that Municipal golf is not for everyone. This goes to the heart of Tom Paul's Big World Theory. It's just such a pity the bozos who think that how they play is who they are is so rampant in golf's modern era.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 12:36:17 PM »
Melvyn,

What specifically are you doing or have you done to combat these ailments you ask us to join you against?

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 12:50:07 PM »
I don't think there is any doubt that Tiger drops an F bomb on the course now and then.  Is this also a product of the dark ages or did Melvyns gene pile also use similar terms of disgust.  If not, when did this practice start?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 01:14:54 PM »

Peter

If you have a problem with paying for TOC, then I suggest do not play it. There are over 48 courses in Fife alone some great course which will give you a lot of enjoyment. As for the rest of Scotland there are many small clubs with 9 holes with Honesty Boxes, again great fun and during the week rather quiet.

Back to TOC, I am afraid the links is owned by the public who through an Act of Parliament has bequeathed the running of it to The Links Trust. If you have any problems please address them to the General Manager. I can’t help or have any influence, sorry.

Adam

What can be done, the choice is do nothing and wait and see or try and look to see if there is anything that can be done. I don’t have the answer, I was hoping to get some constructive suggestions but as usual on this site its have some fun or bemoan a topic because some consider it an attach against them or their game. Its becoming a total no win situation.

Jim

Apart from raising the topic on this site very little, because of the general apathy of many Secretaries or Management Teams. Today we are looking at self interest and have not yet looked at the overall direction the game is heading. As for leadership very little seems to generates from the Governing  bodies, who should be looking into the matter. But when raised some points with the Scottish Golfing Union, they also suffer from slow response ( I believe that means apathy). I was hoping that some form of general consensus may result from this topic, but so far the subject has hardly been discussed.

John

I am not disillusioned with Golf, far from it, in fact as I mentioned I am well protected by our club system and am fortunate to be able to play nearly all the GB courses.

Many GB cubs allow guest to play, and I believe that is most generous of them. They are certainly very careful and golfers are expected to behave like golfers. The Club system in GB is great and I totally support their efforts and what they offer the average golfer including guests.

John, one day you may show that you actually do care and be able to stop hiding behind this mask of what appears as contempt to me.

Melvyn



Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 01:16:25 PM »
I can well understand Melvyn's angst, I have seen more boorish behavior on Scottish golf courses than anywhere else in the world and to spoil his day further, the culprits were Scottish.

Bob

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2008, 01:18:00 PM »
Melvyn

Do you like any courses that are not links?  If so, which ones?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2008, 01:22:01 PM »

Many GB clubs allow guest to play, and I believe that is most generous of them.


Do you honestly believe that fees are collected for reasons other than revenue?  I have even changed my stance against unaccompanied play knowing that one foresome one day is equal to two months of my dues.  My change in opinion does not come from a sense of generosity towards the unaccompanied player when in fact I thank them for their generosity in choice.



Jeff Spittel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2008, 01:22:47 PM »
I find that sometimes a couple of adult beverages is just what the doctor ordered when I'm not playing my best, either walking or riding. Ergo, the terms "swing grease" or "Nicklaus in a can".

If you are a responsible adult, you should be able to handle a couple of cocktails on the course without racing carts or acting like a drunken buffoon.
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2008, 01:26:23 PM »
Melvyn,

To a certain extent, I believe you have the wrong audience for your message on this site. My impression is that most here would naturally avoid places where such drunkenness and poor etiquette would happen.

I have been at a resort course where I was forced to listen to the constant stream of loud obscenities from the drunken group in front of me. I considered quitting, asking for my money back, and leaving. However, I had spent a significant amount of time and money getting there for my one time experience so sucked it up and soldiered on. However, I will never go back.

Sometimes there are incidents in the news that reflect very poorly on the courses where they occur. I have to wonder whether the owners/operators understand that kind of news may impact their revenue in ways they do not forsee, nor can overcome.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2008, 01:35:58 PM »

Bob

Sorry to hear that, but then that’s not my experience. I don’t think I can group them as English, American, Canadian, Scottish etc., but just groups of loud & rowdy drunks.

Paul

Why the interest, but I like Bridge of Allen, Pitlochry, Killin, Crieff, Tarland, Strathpeffer Spa, then Gleneagles many times when my father was alive – but not recently. There are others but I trust that gives you the information you seek. Plus many in England. Not played any in Wales. Also lived in Northern Ireland including Royal Belfast plus, no you only want no links.

Melvyn

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Dark Age of Golf
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2008, 01:43:33 PM »

Garland

I take your point and I think I will be taken my opinions in another direction. I expect they will again fall upon the deaf.

Yes like you I will not return to those courses if it attracts the rowdy type. I enjoy golf and want to relax and enjoy my game either with friends or by myself.

Melvyn

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