[Melvyn Morrow]

Tim

I like what I read, keep it up.

I seem to agree with every point, but be careful my endorsement may get you in trouble. Honest from the heart stuff and real common sense as well, just great.


Melvyn

[Charlie Goerges]

A couple points, as I have looked into these types of questions as a complete outsider to the business.

I agree with John, that you can't discourage cart users (in most cases) if you want to survive. But you don't want to neglect the non-cart users either. The "Cheap" are made up of several constituencies including: the young, the poor, the beginners of any age, in addition to those genetically cursed with cheapness no matter their financial standing. It would be bad to discourage people from playing because they are future customers period.

In any event, It seems pretty evident that it's easier for cart riders to play a course that is well-designed for walking than it is for walkers to play a course well-designed for riding.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

A few comments to your most recent post.

I don't think I'm stepping off the cliff of correctness when I stated that even the top tier private clubs in and around the metro NYC area have continually stepped up their usage of carts.

No doubt caddie programs exist -- some are more active than others -- but many of them are really lucky to have experienced help that offer anything more than bag toting 101 level type stuff.

Tim, you say my view is "discouraging." It's really not my view but an accurate assessment of the current landscape.

I know of plenty of old style courses where the proximity of the green just played and the following tee are close to one another -- usually less than 50 yards -- but the bulk of people still take the cart for a range of reasons I've previously mentioned as well as others.

In regards to courses being built in difficult areas -- Tim, that's part of the business model and those folks fronting the big time $$ necessary for them to happen were seeing the cart as the necessary link to maximize house lots and to have a course with the max in terms of sheer sprawl.

My point was really that the explosion of golf design into more demanding sites was not the straw the broke the camel's back in regards to walking. That movement was long underway years ago as old time clubs simply recognized the reality that caddies were no longer going to be the main connection between the course and the membership. The cart was accepted for that clear reality and it didn't hurt with the added $$ that the club's received too.

Tim -- I think it's great that you and other architects who favor walking can try to have a close connection between green / tee when playing. I just think it's an error to believe that even if the green sat 2-3 steps from the next tee that people would then automatically drop the cart and sling the bag over their shoulder.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC_Lyon:

I have to agree you are -- " ... a traditionalist, elitist ... "

With all due respect -- get real. Golf's growth to so many different places in the States is tied to the cart because without it the sheer number of courses built on extremely demandind sites could not happen.

I don't doubt the long standing culture of an Oak Hill -- but Oak Hill is more the exception (for plenty of good reasons I might add) than the rule.

The cart has been the means by which plenty of second home communities have blossomed. Now, please don't think that I see all such real estate development situations as a boom to quality golf course architecture. Far from it. Many of those are nothing more than pro forma layouts of little distinction but they have allowed the broader golf economy to expand in some fashion.

I share your passion for walking and slinging the bag over the shoulder -- but the cart inclusion here in American golf is part and parcel of the broader game. Like I said before -- thank heavens for the Keiser's of this world and for the private traditional clubs that still promote walking and caddies. Just don't believe that eliminating carts would prove helpful for the broader audience that sees them as necessary in order to play.

JNC, one last question -- does Oak Hill allow people to have pull carts to be used and if not -- why not? I agree w Jeff W -- they provide a walking connection and are not as tough on the turf or unsightly as electric or gas carts.

Like Jeff Mingay said above, it is hard to understand how a cartless game works in the UK but not in America.

Oak Hill does have pull carts which are very useful for golfers who don't want to carry their bag but still want to enjoy walking.  I think they are a good option.  My personal preference is to carry rather than push, but I have no problem with them at all.  I think part of this comes for working at a local club where, on Saturday mornings, all push carts are gone before one caddy gets a loop.  This, to me, is against the spirit of the game.

One example of a course where no carts works very well is Bethpage Black.  Golfers from around the country to play big golf course routed over rugged terrain without the use of a golf cart.  It is the hardest ticket in American public golf.  Why does it work?  Because the main selling point is the golf course, not the amenities that surround it.  Sure, very few public courses can have the pedigree of a Bethpage Black to back it up.  However, I believe great architecture alone will keep golfers coming back again and again, whether or not they know who A. W. Tillinghast is.

[Lou_Duran]

Answer:  Indispensable

While I would never force someone to take a cart if I owned a course, it would be financial suicide to prevent someone from renting one.  In my old group in north Texas, a full half would not play golf if required to walk during the cool weather months of the year, and probably 80% from late May through mid-September. 

Matt Ward says:  "Mike, just realize if carts were outlawed tomorrow -- the courses would simply raise the base rate to play to make up for the financial shortfall."  Then he opines:  "As far as percentages are concerned -- I'd dare say at minimum impactec would be no less than 25% to as much as 50% -- possiblly even more."

If courses lost 25% to 50% of rounds (and maybe more if commited riders tend to play more rounds than walkers), then it would be impossible for the operator to raise the base price to make up for the loss of cart revenues from a mandatory walking policy.  It is really very elementary economics, which the "deniers" simply choose to ignore.

Course operators know the economics of carts very well.  Riders know that they subsidize Kavanaugh's cheapos.  As a charter member in this group, I am thankful for those folks who willingly pay $15-$20 extra to enjoy the same course I do, typically play faster, and sometimes fill in divots with sand that walkers create and leave unrepaired.

Whatever compaction and other damage carts are responsible for, I suspect that cart fees help fund the employment of two, three or more maintenance employees at many courses.  The "operating margins" in the 40% to 60%+ range of the cart fleet probably make it the # 1 profit center of a golf course.    With very few exceptions, golf courses which enjoy good economics are better cared for than those on the brink of bankruptcy.  Rather than condemning carts and riders, we should think of them warmly as we gather around for the Thanksgiving feast.

As to carts ruining the game and caddies being virtous, that's nonesense.  I've played a couple of world-class, breathtakingly beautiful courses and the entourage of four players, two to four caddies, and a couple of spectators made it look like a firedrill.  Choice is beautiful, though I do ascribe to the right to association.  Golf has much bigger problems than the use of golf carts.   

[Kenny Baer]

Answer: Way to critical

I don't have problems with carts per say but I do have problems with courses that will not let you walk a perfectly walkable golf course; in many cases I have told places that I would pay the cart fee if they would let me walk and they still won't, to me that is stupid.

I also have a problem with people who are just plain lazy and won't walk but for no other reason than laziness.  Them not walking makes it akward for me to walk.  If you are playing a fourball it makes it pretty akward if you refuse to throw your bag on the cart of the person who is riding by themselves.  I have no problems with carts just the fact that I want to walk everytime I play and probably am only able to 50% of the time because people are lazy and don't understand what is great about the game. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Kenny,

Just because you choose not to exercise does not make you lazy.  Fitness is just one of lifes many choices.

[Kenny Baer]

John,

I am pondering that one...

[Lou_Duran]

Kenny,

Your perspective is not uncommon.  But why should you care how someone else enjoys something?  Are they preventing you unreasonably from enjoying how you do your thing?  Do you believe that your understanding of what is great about the game is THE correct and only one?  I am not picking on you.  As I said at the outset, many feel as you do.

BTW, I've walked many times with three riders.  It can be awkward, and if it impedes the flow of play, I'll get in the cart and pay the fee.  It shouldn't be a matter of courtesy unless you are being invited to play and you accept.  Just like playing different tees within the group, most are flexible, some others are not.  It then becomes a matter of how badly you want to play with the group.  None of us should become so set in our ways that we preclude others from exercising their preferences, often at next to no cost to ourselves.  When we do, normally, we just cheat ourselves of valuable, positive experiences.      

[Mike_Young]

Tim, to be honest, I think too many Americans who do play golf are what Michael B described. They just want to play and have entertainment with all the food / drink they can handle when playing. The very understanding of these folks about golf is clearly on a different wavelength than the core people who post / lurk on this site.

Matt,
I understand what Tim is trying to say and I also think that what you are stating is how the overall across the country situation is leaning.   Most of the guys playing golf at our club....and yes I mean more than 50% and they are usually mid 30's to mid 40's...have taken the game up in or after college and use it as a means of comraderie.....cigars at the halfway house, coolers of beer and mixed drinks and the main tourney of the year is the member guest......the sad thing is these are the same guys in charge of making changes at some of the old courses ad they are complete dumbasses when it comes to golf.

[Tim Liddy]

One final point and we can quit beating this dead horse.  The majority of golfers, especially, in the private arena, are 50 years or older. Everyone else (any younger) is too busy making a living and raising a family. These guys will walk when they can, but many are getting bad hips, are too heavy, have bad feet or are not in good enough shape to finish the critical final few golf holes (especially if there are bets) without their legs getting weak (and killing their swings).

Many of the guys in my club use a pull cart, but more and more use golf carts because they are getting their exercise on the treadmill (and they do not feel guilty about it no matter how hard I try).

The weather also has a major effect especially in the hot months of July and August. I have also notice time is also a factor: My buddy and I can easily play 18 holes in 2 hours in a cart if we are in a hurry and do not run into another group –especially important as daylight becomes an issue in the Fall.

But the majority of the time and the majority of golfers walk at my club in Indiana. The golf course was built in the 20’s and the design is very walk friendly. The “walk in the park” is central to the enjoyment of the round.

Doesn’t everyone agree?  Sitting in a golf cart is half as enjoyable as walking.

[archie_struthers]

 


Unfortunately I'd say 50% is a low number...at Twisted Dune we offered huge walking incentives which were received unenthusiatically to say the least ...in fact many of our riding customers took umbrage that they were getting "robbed" .

Obviously really high level course ...the Pine Valleys ...Bandons ...etc can demand that people walk ...this works to some extent because most players are infrequent visitors and  "rough it"  just  for the privilege of being there and seeing the golf course....

however if this was an everyday course ..the demand for buggies would increase  dramatically  

remember too the "graying " of our customer base ....the lack of young participants and the good fortune that people are living longer and playing l...many can't walk but can play ...and given business these days ...most operators have to listen

[John Kavanaugh]

Doesn’t everyone agree?  Sitting in a golf cart is half as enjoyable as walking.

Don't agree at all.  Even at my age sometimes I get a smile on my face during our cart races.  There are some courses where it is a blast to drive a cart. 

[Bill_McBride]

One final point and we can quit beating this dead horse.  The majority of golfers, especially, in the private arena, are 50 years or older. Everyone else (any younger) is too busy making a living and raising a family. These guys will walk when they can, but many are getting bad hips, are too heavy, have bad feet or are not in good enough shape to finish the critical final few golf holes (especially if there are bets) without their legs getting weak (and killing their swings).

Many of the guys in my club use a pull cart, but more and more use golf carts because they are getting their exercise on the treadmill (and they do not feel guilty about it no matter how hard I try).

The weather also has a major effect especially in the hot months of July and August. I have also notice time is also a factor: My buddy and I can easily play 18 holes in 2 hours in a cart if we are in a hurry and do not run into another group –especially important as daylight becomes an issue in the Fall.

But the majority of the time and the majority of golfers walk at my club in Indiana. The golf course was built in the 20’s and the design is very walk friendly. The “walk in the park” is central to the enjoyment of the round.

Doesn’t everyone agree?  Sitting in a golf cart is half as enjoyable as walking.

You are right about old guys who are overweight and have bad feet. 

I am 66, was diagnosed with Type II diabetes a few years ago and now have diabetic ulcers under my big toes which manifest themselves as blisters.  I developed them on the first full day of a 10 day trip to Scotland in June, and yesterday when I tried to walk for the first time in 5 months - there they were again.  Luckily I was able to get word to the pro shop to send me out a cart for the second nine (shotgun start in a couples thing).

This is very discouraging.....but thank heavens for the cart.

[Kenny Baer]

"Your perspective is not uncommon.  But why should you care how someone else enjoys something?  Are they preventing you unreasonably from enjoying how you do your thing?  Do you believe that your understanding of what is great about the game is THE correct and only one?  I am not picking on you.  As I said at the outset, many feel as you do."

!) (Why should I care) I think you misunderstood my post; I don't care how someone enjoys the game but the fact that their enjoyment impedes on my enjoyment aggravates me, not being allowed or able to walk.

2) "Are they preventing you unreasonably from enjoying how you do your thing?" Yes they are; to me walking is one of the things I enjoy most about the game; it is a great opportunity to exercise while doing something I love.

3) "Do you believe that your understanding of what is great about the game is THE correct and only one?"  I believe that is a loaded question, in my opinion walking and exercise is part of the game, as much a part of the game as putting.  So do I think my understanding of what is great about the game is the only one, no, but my belief is that walking is part of the game, some people may not think that part (walking) is great but in my opinion it is still part of the game.  If someone tells me the best part about golf is riding in the cart that is their prerogative; if that is what they think is best than they are enjoying a different sport than the one I play.  The same way if I played two hand touch football and was talking with someone in the NFL and told them the best part of the game was being able to touch the other player and say they were down, they would say to me you are talking about a different sport.

[Michael Whitaker]

For those of you in the UK...

How would golfers in the UK react if trolleys were banned?

How would it affect the number of players if everyone was required to carry their bag?

[Sean_A]

For those of you in the UK...

How would golfers in the UK react if trolleys were banned?

How would it affect the number of players if everyone was required to carry their bag?

Whitty

It would not go over well.  I think a substantial # of golfers would quit.  Golfers over here love their electric trolleys - they are nearly extensions of their cars.  I am even considering getting one!  I couldn't believe how much more refreshed I felt after rounds in Ireland after using one just about every game last summer.  My back felt much better too.  I think its a good solution for those who can't carry and don't want to pull a damn trolley about.  I haven't made the final decision yet because I am cheap and I enjoy all the short cuts afforded to carriers. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

For those of you in the UK...

How would golfers in the UK react if trolleys were banned?

How would it affect the number of players if everyone was required to carry their bag?

Trolleys are frequently banned in the UK, infact many golf courses at the moment are, as a general rule depending on how wet a course would be it would go something like this:
1. Course closed too wet
2. Course open carry only (some people carry half set)
3. Course open pull trolleys for seniors
4. Course open pull trolleys only, electric trolleys banned
5. Course open but buggies banned
6. Course open

I would say that very few players go out (maybe 20%)under carry only, but mainly because conditions would be pretty horrible.

[Adrian_Stiff]

JNC_Lyon:

I have to agree you are -- " ... a traditionalist, elitist ... "

With all due respect -- get real. Golf's growth to so many different places in the States is tied to the cart because without it the sheer number of courses built on extremely demandind sites could not happen.

I don't doubt the long standing culture of an Oak Hill -- but Oak Hill is more the exception (for plenty of good reasons I might add) than the rule.

The cart has been the means by which plenty of second home communities have blossomed. Now, please don't think that I see all such real estate development situations as a boom to quality golf course architecture. Far from it. Many of those are nothing more than pro forma layouts of little distinction but they have allowed the broader golf economy to expand in some fashion.

I share your passion for walking and slinging the bag over the shoulder -- but the cart inclusion here in American golf is part and parcel of the broader game. Like I said before -- thank heavens for the Keiser's of this world and for the private traditional clubs that still promote walking and caddies. Just don't believe that eliminating carts would prove helpful for the broader audience that sees them as necessary in order to play.

JNC, one last question -- does Oak Hill allow people to have pull carts to be used and if not -- why not? I agree w Jeff W -- they provide a walking connection and are not as tough on the turf or unsightly as electric or gas carts.

Like Jeff Mingay said above, it is hard to understand how a cartless game works in the UK but not in America.

We just dont get so hot here, not many days are above 20C, and many are below 10C. At that temperature walking keeps warm. During summer days the buggy rentals zoom up.

[JNC Lyon]

Kenny,

Your perspective is not uncommon.  But why should you care how someone else enjoys something?  Are they preventing you unreasonably from enjoying how you do your thing?  Do you believe that your understanding of what is great about the game is THE correct and only one?  I am not picking on you.  As I said at the outset, many feel as you do.
     

I think other peoples' use of golf carts does prevent others from enjoying a round of golf.  Some of my slowest rounds of golf are played behind a group in carts who have no idea what they are doing.  This is for two reasons.  First, they never learned the traditions of the golf that include walking.  Much of golf results from the natural flow of the game gained from walking a golf course.  This is why elderly and disabled persons in carts don't bother me.  Most of these individuals learned the game when it was walking only so they understand proper etiquette.  Second, most golfers do not understand how to play in a golf cart.  Those who do know how to play in a cart never take them.  This means many people waste loads of time driving different clubs across fairways, switching clubs, and walking to and from carts to greens.  So in these cases (and I can remember countless examples), the use of golf carts did deprive me of some (albeit not all) enjoyment of the game.

[Tim Bert]

90% of people who walk and carry or use a push cart do so because they are cheap.  

Kenny,

Just because you choose not to exercise does not make you lazy.  Fitness is just one of lifes many choices.

John,

Just because you choose not to spend money does not make you cheap.


Should we assume that 90% of people that choose not to exercise are lazy?  I'd guess that the % of people choosing not to exercise that are lazy is higher than the % of people choosing to walk that are cheap.

[Kyle Harris]

Lou,

In a more meta sense, cart riders have certainly ruined my ability to enjoy the game.

The market for the golf cart has allowed golf course owners to enforce mandatory cart rules. If there were ANY risk that such practices would deter people from playing, they wouldn't be in place.

As an ardent walker, I have absolutely no clout. I used to call Lederach weekly to ask for the walking rate in order to at least give the perception that people would want to walk - but it's been three years and carts are still mandatory with no walking rate.

For every walker turned off by a mandatory cart rule, there are probably two riders waiting for that slot.

[Melvyn Morrow]

We are talking about golf, a game which from the start required walking.

I believe John’s quote IMHO shows the unacceptable face of carting.

‘Even at my age sometimes I get a smile on my face during our cart races.  There are some courses where it is a blast to drive a cart’. 

I have been accused of taking the high moral ground, of being insulting, but that remark, for me just brings the game into disrepute and belittles those who need carts to play. That is what is wrong with golf today and to see it on GCA.com by a senior member is just not acceptable in my opinion.

John, I certainly expected better from you.

Melvyn

[Eric_Terhorst]

90% of people who walk and carry or use a push cart do so because they are cheap.  Golf can not survive on cheap people alone.  It is not so much the cart that is the problem, it is those who hate them that will end the game.  My point is that if this game is limited to guys who walk and carry every other revenue source will also suffer due to the tightness of the demographic.

People who pay for caddies are the opposite of cheap.

The majority of golfers, especially, in the private arena, are 50 years or older. These guys will walk when they can, but many are getting bad hips, are too heavy, have bad feet or are not in good enough shape to finish the critical final few golf holes (especially if there are bets) without their legs getting weak (and killing their swings).

As a 50+ year old who prefers to walk and carry mostly because that's how I've played golf since I was 12 years old, I really enjoyed reading  these two offensive comments.  Thanks guys!

John, I presume you're just trying to bait us with that ridiculous comment.  Plenty of municipal course golfers carry their own or pull a cart because the only recurring golf costs they can afford are the greens fee, the balls, and a pair of shoes once in a blue moon--period.  That's a golf tradition going back hundreds of years, I think. 

Tim,  I'm pleased to see that you support better designs to enable walking, keep up the good work--but I don't recall Sultan's Run as being particularly walker-friendly.  In fact I think I almost crashed a cart on one of those steep paths...should you be careful what you wish for when you say courses shouldn't be built on difficult-to-walk properties?

[Tim Bert]

If a golf course is designed correctly, with the white tees very close to the previous green, it becomes easier to walk than it does to ride. In these cases where the golf course is designed correctly, typically the old classic golf courses, I think you will find that more golfers walk than ride.  When this basic rule is ignored (typically housing development golf courses) more golfers will ride –which is what many owners want anyway because it generates revenue - and explains many of the awful golf courses built in the past 30 years.

Tim,

Since you are weighing in and I believe you were involved in Wintonbury Hills, let me weigh in with a scenario that is most frustrating to me.  Wintonbury is designed to be walkable in my opinion.  There are some ups and downs but they aren't extreme.  The walk from 16 to 17 is a little longer than ideal because of the wetland issue, but it isn't that bad.

The first summer Wintonbury was open, I was turned down in my request to walk the course twice.  I was told it wasn't a walking friendly layout and that they had a mandatory cart policy.  I rode and I liked the course, but I didn't see a problem with walking as an option.

I continued to ask (as did others) and eventually they loosened the policy to you can walk, but you have to pay the same price.  I didn't have a problem with that option either.  Each time I asked, they "screened" me to warn of the difficult walk that would take place.  Essentially, they were driving cart traffic and it didn't even appear to be a revenue issue.

I haven't played the course in 3 years because I moved away from the region, so hopefully they've moved on now to simply accepting that some folks like to walk when they play golf on moderate terrain.  In my opinion while we should be concerned about turning cart riders away from the game (because the math wouldn't work due to the large numbers that would find alternatives without carts) we also shouldn't be discouraging walkers.

A few of us encountered a very similar situation at Pilgrim's Run in Michigan earlier this year.  The starter was downright rude about our interest in walking because we were first off the tee on a "riding" course.  We made the turn 20-30 minutes ahead of the next group, and finished the round  with a couple holes open behind us.  

If it is a revenue issue then hit me with the cart charge, but please give me a choice to walk unless you've built a mountainous course or something with 1/2 mile walks that simply won't allow for walkers.  I'm not going to try to make the case that walking is faster than riding because no walker is going to win a race against cart riders, but considerate walkers can certainly keep up with a reasonable weekend morning pace of play.

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