[Melvyn Morrow]

No comment - anything I say or write maybe considered by many on this site to be anti American, which is not true.

However I will submit an observation, the game of golf seems rather sick and may have lost its way, but you introduced the cart, so sorry you have to resolve that problem. I hope that it is soon as the infection has spread and has a fair hold on some of our courses in GB

If I say anymore I will be accused of all sorts, but I will say there are many courses in the UK that do not rely on cart revenue to stay in business and are more than happy to welcome golfers.  Perhaps one thing I have learnt here is that we play golf on our courses and if you want a ride we are told to seek out coach tours.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think golf is a far better experience if you walk and as a fit 30 year old never wanted a buggy even if it was free. I had a car crash and can now only play with a buggy, so I have seen both sides. Commercially carts/buggys are good earners and largely people have a choice anyway, so if you have the choice why an argument. However there is a slight flip side that certainly many of the Spanish courses and many modern ones are so hilly especially from green to next tee that the 'choice' is really taken away because they are unwalkable, negatively if you have to have a cart you have to pay and that inflates the green fee price which = being too expensive for some and that = less revenue.

[Craig Sweet]

I would rather see people playing golf than not....I'd rather see golf courses than not...

If the cart goes...golfers go....if golfers go, courses go..

[Rich Goodale]

Chip,
I bet your dad would play 9 holes or get a caddy.

I'm sure that cart revenue is equally offset by the paths and added maintenance and capital costs required - i.e. no net gain.

My course would have a few carts for those unable to walk - no paths.

Cheers

Mike

I'd be interested in finding out why you are so sure about this.  Everything I have read or even heard about anecdotally about this issue tells me that having carts (or a cart franchise) is a license to steal.  This is surely true on a course already laid out with firm enough cround to take carts (i.e. no significant assoicated capital expenditure).  If you need to spend money for cart paths, sheds, etc., maybe not, but I'd like to see the numbers proving that.

Over here in Scotland clubs and pros have been salivating over the prospect of getting carts onto their compact layout/compact turf courses, and are being increasingly (and disappointingly, to me) successful is satisfying this lust for additional revenues.  As the world economy continues to tank due to governemnt paralysis/incompetency, these pressurs are going to increase, to the detriment of the game (or even the "sport"--if you are so linguistically inclined).

 

j-p p

[Ken Moum]

Chip,
I bet your dad would play 9 holes or get a caddy.

I'm sure that cart revenue is equally offset by the paths and added maintenance and capital costs required - i.e. no net gain.

My course would have a few carts for those unable to walk - no paths.

Cheers

That's an interesting point.

Has anyone ever added up all the costs of carts?

Depreciation of the carts, paths and storage facility, maintenance, fuel/electricity and additional turf maintenance?

And of course there's the labor to "manage" carts during the day, including all those young people who work in the cart barn and pros shop.

With none of those costs, would a course save more than the carts bring in?

Oh, and another couple of reasons why Americans are so much more likely to ride than Scots.

The average highs in Scotland in July are 65 degrees , and few courses have large changes in elevation. Those are ideal walking conditions.

Here in Kansas our average temps in July more like 90 with high humidity, and the courses here are all much more hilly than linksland.

K

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don M,

True enough. It was late and I was sketching out the basics.  Plus, I forgot to divide the number of rounds into the half cart price, so the numbers aren't as impressive.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if for many courses, profit equals net cart revenues.

[Sean_A]

Melvyn

I don't think comparing the US and GB&I for carts is really a fair comparison.  The vast majority of courses over here are old and private.  The model is not the same as trying to make a profit which a significant percentage of courses in the States are trying to do and many privates use carts as a banked revenue stream (wrongly imo).  Its an apples and oranges deal.  The only places I really see carts over here are where there tends to be heavy American presence (guaranteed revenue), land/design which will take carts safely, older people and/or the odd public/resort course.  I personally don't care if carts are more heavily used or if more and more courses built are cart tracks - I can always avoid these places.  My real beef is with the awful cart paths and some GB&I courses now have these, but they tend to be public/resort courses.  I don't want to see cart paths installed as a way to make carts safe in all weather and times of year.  This is when things get out of control and the compromise becomes is imbalanced.  Most of the older folks I see using carts use the single deal which they buy.  I don't see a problem with that so long as they are sensible.  If you have ever been on one of these things you would probably agree that they aren't very comfortable on ideal golf terrain and most folks who have to buy these would rather walk, but alas, sometimes life deals harsh blows.  

Ciao

Ciao  

[PCCraig]

I would take a guess as to how a no-carts course survives. The GCA is so that it is worth walking for. There are many clubs that require walking now unless for a medical considtion, and players will do it if the course is good enough.

I will be guilty of this every once in a while, if I'm playing a bland course just to play some holes, it doesn't always matter to me if I'm in a cart. However if I'm there to see the course, I would want to walk.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

I am certainly not against providing access for those who need assistance or mobility for whatever reason. Like you I am very much anti cart paths. I posted in another topic the following picture of a great gentleman using his own single seater around Belfairs GC nr Southend.



Perhaps if more individual carts were on offer those against carts and the paths my not voice their opposition so strongly. The problem is it is now part of the revenue train, clubs/courses milk it for what it’s worth, regrettable to the determent to the walkers and to the pleasure for the half hearted player.

I also accept your comment regards the difference between GB/USA. But it could be argued that the cart has allowed a drop in quality of the new golf courses and encouraged those not perhaps really interested in golf to play these - let’s call them questionable courses.

For golf to survive we must attract genuine golfers and their families, perhaps there is a lesson to be learnt form the GB club scene although I would not hold that up as the best example of GB management practices.

Perhaps there are too many course out there, perhaps many were compromised prior to conception by being built on to a development as a sweetener to sell the properties, perhaps numbers are required to keep these courses in business, but I feel that the only way to allow golf to survive is not to water it down but to make a firm statement, welcome to golf, this is how it is played and these are the rules and etiquette of the game. Those not wanted to participate can freely take their leave allowing those who want to play the game of golf ,to do so.

Revenue may fall, clubs may close, but one good point is that your game may be faster averaging the 3ish hour round.  It’s all down to individual taste. IMHO.

Melvyn

[Mike Nuzzo]

Ken,
There are a lot of walkers her in Houston.

Jeff,
Cart path edging
Cart Damage & Insurance
Lost pull cart revenues
How much does losing caddies cost each course? ....  I mean life long golfers ....

[jeffwarne]

Some obsevations-no judgements as I do my share of riding

Every year I see more and more carts on courses in the UK (I traveled with an elderly gentleman this past year in remote parts of Wales and only at two courses(out of 13) were carts not available (for anyone).
Not sure this trend will continue but...

Most courses that are "walking only " REQUIRE you to take a caddie so there's certainly no savings and while many a charming experience can be had with a caddie ,often times you're paying to be accompanied by at best an untrained chatterbox or at worst.....
This is even true at some of the best GCA favored caddie programs in the country.
Occasionally one wants to alone with their son,daughter, spouse or even a business partner and doesn't need/want the third party tagging along.
Caddies are wonderful additions, but only if you've chosen that experience on your own.
Interestingly, on a recent golf trip the only bad experience involved a caddie. (which we took to support the program)

It's interesting to me that people in the US make fun of pull carts and yet in the UK they're commonplace at the finest clubs.
I've come to like my Sun Mountain pull cart. (although they tell me it's a push cart)

The UK model is best, and if you look closely, the only people taking caddies are the tourists-the locals are pulling trolleys and motoring along.

Cart revenue is important but it comes at a cost -maintenance issues, building and maintaining paths, storage, labor etc.
Sadly some courses are unwalkable-maybe this recession helps them go away.

I often play in the evenings in a cart out of tiredness or a desire to race around, but that's really just laziness and could have the same amount of fun by walking fewer holes. (yet somehow on golf trips to the UK/Ireland I'm able to walk and pull 36 a day)

Of course much of this depends on the walkability of the course.

[Michael Blake]

HOW MANY GOLFERS WOULD ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME TODAY IF THEY COULD NOT RIDE? 

Mike,

NONE of my friends would play if they could not ride.  All in their 30's and early 40's.  All healthy.

They're much more concerned with 'hitting the ball,' rather than enjoying what the course has to offer.
They're much more concerned with how many beers they can stuff in their bag and store on the cart.

Nothing necessarily wrong with their reasons for playing.  It's just a totally different perspective and experience for them.

I cannot convince them to walk and sadly, I do not play with them much anymore.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Anyway... I have just bought 2 more buggies today to add to our fleet. We now have 18 buggies... hot days they are all out, cold days sometimes none.

[Kalen Braley]

I think kmourn makes an excellent point about temps and terrain.

While Scotland rarely gets into any kind of high temps, its the norm here in Utah for 4-5 months out of the year.  Then throw in there plenty of mountain'ish terrian and only someone who loves to punish themselves would walk a hilly course in temps that often get above 100 degrees in the summer.

As for myself, if carts were banned, I'd stick to the flattish and walkable layouts and have to forgoe the longer mountain'ish ones.  Oh yes and during those summer months, it'd be early morning tee times or bust! 

[Rich Goodale]

Anyway... I have just bought 2 more buggies today to add to our fleet. We now have 18 buggies... hot days they are all out, cold days sometimes none.

Interesting, Adrian

When I lived in Florida, the only days I took a buggy was when it was too hot.  When it was cold (i.e. boiling by UK standards) I walked.  Maybe you can arrange a trans-ocean swap between England and Florida?

[Adrian_Stiff]

HOW MANY GOLFERS WOULD ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME TODAY IF THEY COULD NOT RIDE? 

Mike,

NONE of my friends would play if they could not ride.  All in their 30's and early 40's.  All healthy.

They're much more concerned with 'hitting the ball,' rather than enjoying what the course has to offer.
They're much more concerned with how many beers they can stuff in their bag and store on the cart.

Nothing necessarily wrong with their reasons for playing.  It's just a totally different perspective and experience for them.

I cannot convince them to walk and sadly, I do not play with them much anymore.

Michael- You are definetly right in as much as certain groups are insistent on riding and I think the number is growing, the game is changing and like so often whilst this forum is often together on issues we still are very much a minority opinion in the whole golf picture. The 'cart' market is there and contributes $$$$ to golf.....golf needs those dollars

[Eric Smith]

Is what they're doing at places like Palmetto Dunes a compromise? 
I guess with these, they COULD eliminate the need for cart paths. And still gain rental revenue.

[Anthony Gray]

Is what they're doing at places like Palmetto Dunes a compromise? 
I guess with these, they COULD eliminate the need for cart paths. And still gain rental revenue.

  Eric,

  You have to hate these things. Carts can do much more property damage than these things.

   Anthony

[Sean_A]

Sean

I am certainly not against providing access for those who need assistance or mobility for whatever reason. Like you I am very much anti cart paths. I posted in another topic the following picture of a great gentleman using his own single seater around Belfairs GC nr Southend.



Perhaps if more individual carts were on offer those against carts and the paths my not voice their opposition so strongly. The problem is it is now part of the revenue train, clubs/courses milk it for what it’s worth, regrettable to the determent to the walkers and to the pleasure for the half hearted player.

I also accept your comment regards the difference between GB/USA. But it could be argued that the cart has allowed a drop in quality of the new golf courses and encouraged those not perhaps really interested in golf to play these - let’s call them questionable courses.

For golf to survive we must attract genuine golfers and their families, perhaps there is a lesson to be learnt form the GB club scene although I would not hold that up as the best example of GB management practices.

Perhaps there are too many course out there, perhaps many were compromised prior to conception by being built on to a development as a sweetener to sell the properties, perhaps numbers are required to keep these courses in business, but I feel that the only way to allow golf to survive is not to water it down but to make a firm statement, welcome to golf, this is how it is played and these are the rules and etiquette of the game. Those not wanted to participate can freely take their leave allowing those who want to play the game of golf ,to do so.

Revenue may fall, clubs may close, but one good point is that your game may be faster averaging the 3ish hour round.  It’s all down to individual taste. IMHO.

Melvyn

Melvyn

While I don't applaud the building of courses in strange places like the desert or mountains, I don't have a beef with it other than the airy fairy pie in the sky the land can't sustain what folks are doing to it philosophy.  I agree that golf needs proper core players to survive, but I don't think the game is any danger at the moment.  What is in danger are the jobs of folks in the business.  Remember, the folks doing the most groaning are those in the business.  For them, if he game isn't growing, its dying.  I don't mind the rubber band of growth snapping back a bit, but at the same time I don't want to see people lose their jobs.  I figure its cheaper for me to keep fat/unsustainable courses in dopey places going rather than to pay higher taxes in government relief.  At least I get the choice not to spend my money at courses which don't interest me.

I can vouch for Jeff Warne's ability to get his troops around an area in lightning quick time.  Stonewall Jackson's Shenandoah Valley Campaign of 1862 had nothing on Winged Warne's Welsh Wanderings of 2008.  It is the stuff of legends, though some might have called it a death march!

Ciao

[Tim Liddy]

If a golf course is designed correctly, with the white tees very close to the previous green, it becomes easier to walk than it does to ride. In these cases where the golf course is designed correctly, typically the old classic golf courses, I think you will find that more golfers walk than ride.  When this basic rule is ignored (typically housing development golf courses) more golfers will ride –which is what many owners want anyway because it generates revenue - and explains many of the awful golf courses built in the past 30 years.

[JNC Lyon]

If a golf course is designed correctly, with the white tees very close to the previous green, it becomes easier to walk than it does to ride. In these cases where the golf course is designed correctly, typically the old classic golf courses, I think you will find that more golfers walk than ride.  When this basic rule is ignored (typically housing development golf courses) more golfers will ride –which is what many owners want anyway because it generates revenue - and explains many of the awful golf courses built in the past 30 years.

This is true, classic courses promote walking simply through their routing.  However, this doesn't prevent golfers from talking carts.  I always cringe when I see people taking carts on the West Course at Oak Hill.  This is the easiest course to walk that I have ever seen.  The maximum green-to-tee distance is 30 yards.  However, people still take golf carts.  Why?  Laziness?  Certainly golf carts do not speed up play.  The tee to green pace is faster but it is murder around the greens.  There is no convenience for carts when greens and tees are that close together.  It is true that many older members have to ride.  Still, there are plenty of couples and younger players that take carts on a daily basis.  Would these people stop playing golf if carts were banned from Oak Hill?  Doubtful.  I think most people love the game too much to stop playing because they have to walk.  And if some people aren't devoted enough to walk a golf course if forced (with the exception of those whose handicaps prevent them from doing so), do we really need these people playing the game?  I know it is a traditionalist, elitist attitude, but golf is an outdoor sport meant to be played without the aid of electronics.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC_Lyon:

I have to agree you are -- " ... a traditionalist, elitist ... "

With all due respect -- get real. Golf's growth to so many different places in the States is tied to the cart because without it the sheer number of courses built on extremely demandind sites could not happen.

I don't doubt the long standing culture of an Oak Hill -- but Oak Hill is more the exception (for plenty of good reasons I might add) than the rule.

The cart has been the means by which plenty of second home communities have blossomed. Now, please don't think that I see all such real estate development situations as a boom to quality golf course architecture. Far from it. Many of those are nothing more than pro forma layouts of little distinction but they have allowed the broader golf economy to expand in some fashion.

I share your passion for walking and slinging the bag over the shoulder -- but the cart inclusion here in American golf is part and parcel of the broader game. Like I said before -- thank heavens for the Keiser's of this world and for the private traditional clubs that still promote walking and caddies. Just don't believe that eliminating carts would prove helpful for the broader audience that sees them as necessary in order to play.

JNC, one last question -- does Oak Hill allow people to have pull carts to be used and if not -- why not? I agree w Jeff W -- they provide a walking connection and are not as tough on the turf or unsightly as electric or gas carts.

Tim Liddy:

I don't buy your statement -- that if old time classic courses are designe correctly you "will find more golfers walk than ride." I live in the Northern NJ area and a number of the private clubs do try to have some sort of a caddie program -- but minus the very samll number (e.g. Baltusrols, Plainfields, Ridgewoods, of the world in my area) the cart is still king.

You make the point that only with the explosion of real estate developments did this surge really take off. Candidly, the demise of caddie programs came long before that and many private clubs -- even the most elite of tops -- have seen the necessity of the $$ that go with it. It would not surprise me that many Northern NJ private clubs would be lucky if 25% of their golfing populations walk on a consistent basis.

Tim, to be honest, I think too many Americans who do play golf are what Michael B described. They just want to play and have entertainment with all the food / drink they can handle when playing. The very understanding of these folks about golf is clearly on a different wavelength than the core people who post / lurk on this site.

[Jeff Goldman]

To those believing that riding a cart is part of the game for younger golfers, there is evidence to the contrary.  As a staid old club and strong supporter of the Evans program, we have long had a requirement during the season that you either take a caddie and walk or ride a cart.  

However, we recently had a dinner with some of our junior members (those under 35) to see how things were going and whether they had concerns, suggestions etc.  The chief request we got from them was to allow them to walk and carry during off hours with payment of a trail fee.  Since they wouldn't take a caddy anyways at those times, I suspect that we will approve the idea for next season.

[Tim Liddy]

Hi Matt,

Your view is discouraging. My experience is proper golf course design will encourage walking and minimize the need for a golf cart.  Much of it is in the details, too much to discuss here.

Your assertion that many sites would not be able to be built without golf carts is correct. They probably should not have been built. In my view, doomed to be a bad golf course from the start. Also, management is also a major factor in golf cart use.  In these great private clubs you mention, I wonder if the premium on service expands the use of golf carts.

[John Kavanaugh]

90% of people who walk and carry or use a push cart do so because they are cheap.  Golf can not survive on cheap people alone.  It is not so much the cart that is the problem, it is those who hate them that will end the game.  My point is that if this game is limited to guys who walk and carry every other revenue source will also suffer due to the tightness of the demographic.

People who pay for caddies are the opposite of cheap.

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