[Mike_Young]

IMHO golf is basically lost right now....with not much direction.....so many of our courses from the last 20 years are not built for the game as much as they are an amenity to housing developments and resorts......if most had to operate solely as golf courses and not lost leaders they would never make it.......we talk about how many core golfers are out there.....BUT I have never heard this question answered directly and independent of all the other jibberish......  HOW MANY GOLFERS WOULD ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME TODAY IF THEY COULD NOT RIDE?  My assumption is that if it were not for the golf cart the percentage of our population that plays the game has decreased significantly.  Not sure the DG can realize that but it seems to be the norm around the places I see.

[Chip Gaskins]

Mike-

Good topic.  I can provide a few data points.

1) I have (and still do) think often about trying to build a world class golf course on sandy soil.  And after dozens of financial modeling exercises with private, semi-private, resort, or public....golf cart revenue is hard to turn down when trying to make the math work.  As long as folks don't mind the $10-20 extra on top of green fees then golf developers will charge it.  Like it or not.  Bandon being the exception in the U.S.

2) I would happily play a course that only allowed walking, they just don't exist where I live.

3) My dad, 66 year old retired cancer survivor who plays 4-5 days a week from the 6300 yards tees and shots mid 70s would stop playing the game tomorrow if he could not ride in a cart.  He plays all winter long with his cart cover and his propane heater.  Pretty hard core, but he still rides.

Chip

[Andy Troeger]

There's no way to answer this hypothetical (short of making it happen), but it would be curious if the "cart-rider" group would quit golf if they could not take their cart, or if they'd just walk. There would be a lot of courses that would go under because they are not walkable (for enough people to stay in business), but there are plenty of older, inexpensive municipal (and other) courses that would probably benefit other than the loss of cart revenue.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike,

Why does golf continue to "work" without golf cars in the UK, but not the United States (Canada, and elsewhere)? I don't have a definite answer... but, it's a good question.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Andy makes a good point on a number of courses that have been built in the last 25 years in some of the more demanding terrain -- you can include much of what you see in plenty of places in the mountain time zone -- as well as places located on property that is extremely demanding -- see Mountain Air in Burnsville, NC as one clear cut example. The only people walking that place would have had to have received training from either the Airborne Rangers or Special Forces.

No doubt housing sites have "stretched" out paths in order to push in more available frontage on golf course property.

Keep in mind, many caddie programs have long since vanished at a number of the top tier clubs -- save for the few that have maintained this honorable tradition. The cart has become de rigueur when playing golf for so many people.

Mike, just realize if carts were outlawed tomorrow -- the courses would simply raise the base rate to play to make up for the financial shortfall.

As far as percentages are concerned -- I'd dare say at minimum impactec would be no less than 25% to as much as 50% -- possiblly even more.

People can bitch all they want about carts but they have so infected the overall nature of the game that they cannot be weeded out across the board. Those on this site who cry out for their extinction live in a fantasy world where botton line realities are simply chucked out the window.



 

[TX Golf]

Of the 20-25 friends of mine that I would classify as "occasional golfers" I could see around 7-10 of them not playing if they couldn't use a cart. It has nothing to do with them being lazy, but just that to them golf is a fun way to hang out with friends, relax, enjoy the weather, and drink some beer. Hauling their bag around for four hours would not happen. I agree with Matt's projection of 25-50%.

Robert

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
I think that is a good question and have often asked myself the same.  I think it is several reasons....1.  I don't think they usually build courses where they should not be built....2. the maintenance and overall operating budget is much cheaper.....thus they can operate on much less.....

As an example....our course now has 50% walkers....while many of us  think that is great...the club is trying to encourage more riding and we are an old walkable course.....today...great day for walking....could get no one to walk.....this example shows me that those that would walk are walking.....so it would be fair to say that probably 50% of or players would not play.....oh well....

[Anthony Gray]

  My home course goes threw a houseing developement and is impossible to walk because of the distance between the holes.

  Anthony

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I think it's a bit naive if less people took carts and as a result those courses would then not need them the net result would be a cheaper game for all of us.

Courses today are so hooked on the revenue stream that's been created that they would simply bump up overall rates to make up the difference.

Mike, carts in the USA are part and parcel of the game we call golf in 2008 --soon to be 2009.

The good news is that a certain small percentage of courses have hooked up their entire identity to the roots of golf through walking -- see Bandon Dunes as a classic example of this type. No doubt few courses can eschew the revenue lost but there is a market -- albeit a small but determined base of players -- that want such a connection to the game and it's likely such people like Mike Keiser, and possibly others, will seek to continue this unique element when playing such locations.

Just don't expect this element to blossom in some sort of epidemic -- although it would be nice to hope so for a whole range of reasons.

[Mike_Young]

Matt,
I am not saying yea or nea to carts.....I understand what they mean to the game and how they are mandatory for many of the newer courses.  And I agree with you as to how critical they are today.....What I am assuming is that so many of the guys I play with will not even consider walking and if you walk in the group they bitch that it slows them down.....I have even had a friend tell me he loves Caves over Merion because they have carts.....has no desire to play Merion again.....I sense we have an entire segment of the golfing population that fits this category.

[PThomas]

in the recent GD Ron Whitten wrote how, as a course owner for three years, he came to appreciate the revenue that carts brought in

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The "generation" of players today is as hooked on carts as Generation X and Y are with their various computer hardware. These are the same type of people who stand in line for hours because they need the most latest and up-to-date computer toy.

Like I said before -- there is a tiny but active element of course owners who will cater to the walking only crowd. Hats off to Keiser for being a big time proponent of the old time traditions.

Cart people see the cart as no less an essential element as the wooden tee or the post-round brew at the 19th hole.

[Mike_Young]

Matt,
So we could agree that as many as 50% of the golfers today would not play w/o carts.....

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - my guess is that the number of rounds played would drop by at least 50%, maybe even 75%. But the good news is that, since 75% of their customers will pay to ride anyway, owners shouldn't be worried about developing 'golf-only' facilities on small sites with old fashioned routings...

Why they HAVE been worried about it for the last 25 years is the question. 

Peter

[Tim Bert]

This is such a tough question to answer in the South.  I suspect that the % that would continue to play regularly without carts is somewhere in the range that has been thrown out so far - 25% to 50%.  It's hard to say for sure because so many courses in the South require carts.  I almost always walk, but I'm not a refuse to ride at all costs kind of guy.  If I'm playing 4 rounds in a weekend, I might ride one to save the legs.  If I'm playing with a guest or host that always rides, then I'll ride along most of the time.  Still, I love the walking aspect of the game.  One of the key criteria in selecting a club for me was a walking allowed any time policy.  I'm not sure if I could be a member somewhere that required carts at this stage in my life.

At my extremely walking friendly club, I'd guess that less than 50% of the people are walking.  It looks like a lot more than that in the mornings when I play, but by the time I'm walking off the course the carts are lined up and ready to go.  I'd guess that my club has a higher walking % than the average club.

The more I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if the % that would walk away is closer to 75% than 50%.   

[Lloyd_Cole]

Anthony

So, if the carts were all lost, destroyed perhaps by some green avenger, couldn't you play the course?

Wouldn't you  all be walking the same distance from green to tee, so pace of play wouldn't be  compromised, relatively.

Frankly, this is a future I might get a little tickle from... would the course then be labelled 'impossible to walk' or just 'crap'?

  My home course goes threw a houseing developement and is impossible to walk because of the distance between the holes.

  Anthony

[Tom Naccarato]

I guess I would have to lose more weight...Actually, I'm doing that anyway, but if I was disabled or something, I would learn how to crawl really good..... It might take me 8 hours to play a round, but I'd crawl 5 miles to play golf.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Chip,
I bet your dad would play 9 holes or get a caddy.

I'm sure that cart revenue is equally offset by the paths and added maintenance and capital costs required - i.e. no net gain.

My course would have a few carts for those unable to walk - no paths.

Cheers

[Lloyd_Cole]

Mike

Bravo.

Chip,
I bet your dad would play 9 holes or get a caddy.

I'm sure that cart revenue is equally offset by the paths and added maintenance and capital costs required - i.e. no net gain.

My course would have a few carts for those unable to walk - no paths.

Cheers

[Jeff_Brauer]

Chip,
I bet your dad would play 9 holes or get a caddy.

I'm sure that cart revenue is equally offset by the paths and added maintenance and capital costs required - i.e. no net gain.

My course would have a few carts for those unable to walk - no paths.

Cheers

Mike,

Not sure about the math there.

Cost of cart paths - $600K
Net Debt (at 85 per 1000) - $51K per year
Maintenance Cost of Paths? - Negligible if concrete, plus some sod replacement, etc. at $20K
Cost of Lost Rounds - 10 month season, 1/2 rainy day per week, 20 days X 100 rounds X $40 - $80,000
Lost Cart Revenue Opportunity - 60% take carts on average, up to 100% if required.
Say 20,000 rounds at $30 = $600,000

Hmm, lets see, revenue op of $680K, expenses of $71K.

Seems like a clear winner, whether we like it or not.

A friend of mine lived in Germany for a while. When I opined that the US had no culture, he corrected me - we have a culture of convenience.

[Jim Nugent]

in the recent GD Ron Whitten wrote how, as a course owner for three years, he came to appreciate the revenue that carts brought in

Can someone tell me the financial arithmetic of carts?  Cost to buy, maintain, cost of installing and maintaining cart paths, extra revenues carts bring, that kind of stuff.


Thanks.

[Matt Varney]

This is a great topic.  I would say that 80% of the golfing public would almost stop playing if golf carts were not available.  I think the itch to play would get many of the remaining 20% but what would happen is courses would see a huge increase in 9 hole rounds.

If you think about walking it requires a course to have a fairly intimage routing from tee to green throughout the round.  You see these dumbass courses that are designed with 200 yards from the green to the next tee box.

Cart paths are ugly but without carts you would see many golf courses shut down from lack of play because few golfers love the game enough to walk and feel the ground during the round.

I love golf and course architecture and probably ride most for them time I play except for when I play 9 holes money games with friends during the week in the summer.

[Jon Wiggett]

Chip,
I bet your dad would play 9 holes or get a caddy.

I'm sure that cart revenue is equally offset by the paths and added maintenance and capital costs required - i.e. no net gain.

My course would have a few carts for those unable to walk - no paths.

Cheers

Mike,

Not sure about the math there.

Cost of cart paths - $600K
Net Debt (at 85 per 1000) - $51K per year
Maintenance Cost of Paths? - Negligible if concrete, plus some sod replacement, etc. at $20K
Cost of Lost Rounds - 10 month season, 1/2 rainy day per week, 20 days X 100 rounds X $40 - $80,000
Lost Cart Revenue Opportunity - 60% take carts on average, up to 100% if required.
Say 20,000 rounds at $30 = $600,000

Hmm, lets see, revenue op of $680K, expenses of $71K.

Seems like a clear winner, whether we like it or not.

A friend of mine lived in Germany for a while. When I opined that the US had no culture, he corrected me - we have a culture of convenience.

Jeff B,

how much are the carts costing to run, maintain and what about the storage facility costs? What about a course that does say only 10,000 rounds a year on top? Don't you think that there might be an increase in course maintenance costs? Won't there be an increase in insurance costs (in the USA surely not )

Mike,

Why does golf continue to "work" without golf cars in the UK, but not the United States (Canada, and elsewhere)? I don't have a definite answer... but, it's a good question.

Jeff M,

maybe it is because we are to tight to fork out the extra money I wonder how many golfers in the USA might not feel like paying that extra $10-$20 on top each round as money gets a little tighter?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Cost of cart paths - $600K
Net Debt (at 85 per 1000) - $51K per year
Maintenance Cost of Paths? - Negligible if concrete, plus some sod replacement, etc. at $20K
Cost of Lost Rounds - 10 month season, 1/2 rainy day per week, 20 days X 100 rounds X $40 - $80,000
Lost Cart Revenue Opportunity - 60% take carts on average, up to 100% if required.
Say 20,000 rounds at $30 = $600,000

Hmm, lets see, revenue op of $680K, expenses of $71K.

Seems like a clear winner, whether we like it or not.

A friend of mine lived in Germany for a while. When I opined that the US had no culture, he corrected me - we have a culture of convenience.

Jeff,
I also think its a clear winner but your math looks like some of the pro formas I've seen thru the years.

Cart storage facility? If it's in the basement of the clubhouse...major dollars.

It costs $$$ to pull 'em out every morning and wash and put 'em away. Someone has to maintain them as well. And power or fuel adds up.

Lots of hidden costs and not many courses get $30 a head for riders, or 20,000 riders a year.

I agree that carts are here to stay and are a revenue source, just not the slam dunk you made it seem.

[Mike_Young]

Trivia.....from one of the golf car companies.....did you know a tire last almost twice as long on asphalt as concrete path?   

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