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Anthony Gray

Pebble Beach Number 12
« on: November 22, 2008, 08:28:57 PM »


  This hole is crusified on this site. And in golf magazines. At times it seems that people think this hole is so bad that it detracts from the greatness of Pebble Beach as a whole.

   What would you do diferently to make the hole better?

   A downhill 170 yard par 3 what is the ideal green complex?

   Would it be more acceptablle if it played from a shorter distance?

     Anthony



PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 08:35:35 PM »
The 14th at Kiawah is better than the 12th at Pebble  ;) ;D
H.P.S.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 08:50:09 PM »
Andy,

This has been discussed ad nauseum as recently as a month ago. Go to search and check it out.

Bob

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 09:11:34 PM »
Andy,

This has been discussed ad nauseum as recently as a month ago. Go to search and check it out.

Bob

  Bob,

  All enybody did was critisize the hole. Noone offered suggestions to make it better.

  Anthony

 

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 09:14:13 PM »
The 14th at Kiawah is better than the 12th at Pebble  ;) ;D

  Pat ..... Agreed.......... Anthony........ The 14th is a great hole.....unless you miss the green..... I know personally.

 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 09:58:35 AM »
Anthony: 

I read somewhere (but am not sure if it's true) that the 12th at Pebble was originally supposed to be a Redan-type hole.  It might have worked if it had been, but the entrance on the right is not deep enough to land and bounce on the green, and the green is so firm it's very difficult to hit and hold.

Either the green needed a bit more tilt from back to front, or it needed to be a bit bigger, or there needed to be a more receptive approach.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 11:23:40 AM »
I am suprised this hole has never gone under the knife. Barebones with a downhill elevation it should have the makings of a good hole, but just needs some interesting bunkering. The left greenside bunker seems the ruiner, I only played pebble the once, does it not hide quite a bit of the green and is just crazy narrow from the tee?
Until the 5th hole reconstruction, the par 3 holes at Pebble (7th obviously excluded) were all rather bland in comparrison with the other holes. 17 is not great IMO either.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 11:51:59 AM »

I read somewhere (but am not sure if it's true) that the 12th at Pebble was originally supposed to be a Redan-type hole.  It might have worked if it had been, but the entrance on the right is not deep enough to land and bounce on the green, and the green is so firm it's very difficult to hit and hold.

Either the green needed a bit more tilt from back to front, or it needed to be a bit bigger, or there needed to be a more receptive approach.

Tom, Glad you brought that up. The hole does and can play exactly like a Redan. The front right bunker has a kick plate on it's green side that when struck, yields the same type of result as a well played shot to a Redan. I would always advise my realist loops to play short for the opening and if they got lucky they would catch the kick plate and roll onto the green and towards the flag. I've seen it happen thats how I know it's the proper play. For the pros, if they are that good, they should be able to find that spot too. However, most would not risk flirting with the bunker that closely. To me, that sounds like the strongest in fundamental principles. Risk, and get the reward.

From my reading of all the negativity surrounding the hole, the people doing all the ragging, have never figured out how to play the hole, so therefore do not like the hole. Even Jack Nicklaus.



Anthony, No one has offered how to alter the hole? You'll need to read Paul Cowley's thoughts on the matter, which I'm sure are on a thread about this hole. He was on the grounds crew there for many years. I don't agree with altering the routing of course or the hole, nor, do I believe the course is best evaluated with a hole by hole analysis. It's a controversial course that has lots of people, on either side, who are passionate and emoting on it's quality. If the course can create feelings of this magnitude, whether it's in a cornfield or not, it's a very good thing and of the highest quality.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 11:57:05 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2008, 12:02:38 PM »
I think what the hole needs is a small pond in front of it with a fountain like 18 at Torrey Pines and then everyone will love it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2008, 01:16:54 PM »
Adam:

I knew how to play the hole because that's how I had to try to play it when I was a kid ... I wasn't very good at spinning the ball, but I was pretty accurate. 

But you still pretty much have to get lucky to get that bounce.  Not even the pros are good enough to hit that spot with any consistency ... that's why they don't try for it.

P.S.  If nearly everybody thinks a hole sucks, that doesn't necessarily mean it's good.  Controversy means having people on both sides.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2008, 02:21:44 PM »

I read somewhere (but am not sure if it's true) that the 12th at Pebble was originally supposed to be a Redan-type hole.  It might have worked if it had been, but the entrance on the right is not deep enough to land and bounce on the green, and the green is so firm it's very difficult to hit and hold.

Either the green needed a bit more tilt from back to front, or it needed to be a bit bigger, or there needed to be a more receptive approach.

Tom, Glad you brought that up. The hole does and can play exactly like a Redan. The front right bunker has a kick plate on it's green side that when struck, yields the same type of result as a well played shot to a Redan. I would always advise my realist loops to play short for the opening and if they got lucky they would catch the kick plate and roll onto the green and towards the flag. I've seen it happen thats how I know it's the proper play. For the pros, if they are that good, they should be able to find that spot too. However, most would not risk flirting with the bunker that closely. To me, that sounds like the strongest in fundamental principles. Risk, and get the reward.

From my reading of all the negativity surrounding the hole, the people doing all the ragging, have never figured out how to play the hole, so therefore do not like the hole. Even Jack Nicklaus.



Anthony, No one has offered how to alter the hole? You'll need to read Paul Cowley's thoughts on the matter, which I'm sure are on a thread about this hole. He was on the grounds crew there for many years. I don't agree with altering the routing of course or the hole, nor, do I believe the course is best evaluated with a hole by hole analysis. It's a controversial course that has lots of people, on either side, who are passionate and emoting on it's quality. If the course can create feelings of this magnitude, whether it's in a cornfield or not, it's a very good thing and of the highest quality.


Adam,

Here on GCA we hear much about course management skills, aiming right on No. 12 is the smart thing to do. I don't understand all the bitching about the hole.

Bob

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2008, 09:06:08 PM »


  Would the hole play better if it was shorter?

   What other courses have a downhill par 3 of around 180 yards? And have a better design?


   Anthony




David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2008, 10:04:45 PM »


  Would the hole play better if it was shorter?

   What other courses have a downhill par 3 of around 180 yards? And have a better design?


   Anthony





18 at Pasatiempo

13 at Victoria

15 at San Clemente

11 at LACC North (if played from the middle tees)

8 at The Creek

12 at Spyglass Hill

16 at Ojai Valley (despite the controversy)
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 07:43:22 PM »
Anthony Gray,

I think the hole is a nice par 3.

I think it suffers due to the company it keeps.

Everyone expects every hole at PB to be a knock out.

If a less than great to good hole exists, it gets panned.

I wonder if those criticizing the 12th would hold some of the holes on TOC to the same standards ?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2008, 09:00:38 PM »
Within the company Pebble Beach keeps, I would say there are no holes at Merion, Pine Valley or Shinnecock quite as mediocre as #12 at Pebble Beach...notwithstanding Adam's strategic kick plate...

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2008, 09:10:10 PM »

David S,

You suggest #12 at Spyglass is better than #12 at Pebble as a 180 yard downhill par 3?

I love many parts of Spyglass but #12 and #15 are probably, in this small mind, the weakest parts of that course. Pebble #12 allows for some strategy and gives some options whereas #12 at Spyglass does not. If the pin is to the right on Pebble, I can play safe to the right side and hopefully get on the green and have a decent putt. If the pin is left, I have a choice of playing safe to the right, taking a chance and challenging the front bunker (and those in back) but if I get into a bunker, I still have a chance of getting up and down. If I am in the drink at Spyglass, chances of a par are essentially nil.

Also, the tee shot on 12 Pebble calls for a draw which follows a hole which calls for a straight drive or a slight fade. Few shots on Pebble call for a draw and this is one.

Bob J

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2008, 09:50:11 AM »
Anthony Gray is wrong about the ongoing discussions about the 12th.  People have not articulated what is wrong with the hole. They all seem to just dismiss it as poor. Not one person has articulated why the hole is bad. They all seem to be religiously following something they read in a book, somewhere.   
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2008, 10:00:21 AM »
Adam,

You will notice in my post that I included Pebble Beach in the company of the best courses I have played in the United States.

Also, any suggestions I might make to "improve" #12 would be a bit of a reach considering I played the hole exactly twice 10 years ago...

Your "kick-plate" concept seems a bit heavy on the RISk and a bit light on the REWARD...

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2008, 10:03:48 AM »
Anthony Gray is wrong about the ongoing discussions about the 12th.  People have not articulated what is wrong with the hole. They all seem to just dismiss it as poor. Not one person has articulated why the hole is bad. They all seem to be religiously following something they read in a book, somewhere.   

  Adam,

  Read the opening again. The question is how do you improve it or design a downhill 180 yard par 3?

  Anthony





Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2008, 10:05:18 AM »

  Bob,

  All enybody did was critisize the hole. Noone offered suggestions to make it better.

  Anthony

 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2008, 01:45:23 PM »
I think what the hole needs is a small pond in front of it with a fountain like 18 at Torrey Pines and then everyone will love it.

Kalen:
Sure you don't want a bunker for the Sandman ;D ;) :o
Best
Dave

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 02:08:00 PM »
Adam,

You will notice in my post that I included Pebble Beach in the company of the best courses I have played in the United States.

Also, any suggestions I might make to "improve" #12 would be a bit of a reach considering I played the hole exactly twice 10 years ago...

Your "kick-plate" concept seems a bit heavy on the RISk and a bit light on the REWARD...


Sully, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

Thanks for admitting your experience on the hole in question. I did not view your list of great courses as placing Pebble among them, rather, compared to. You do seem hell bent on some other agenda. Are you sticking up for all your fellow pros?

As far as the risk of playing for the opening, where the apron is, I scoff at your assertion it's more risk. Firing at the flag is SOP for the high ball hitter. Do you know how many are successful with that strategy? Few! That strategy brings all sorts of trouble into play. From plugging into the front bunker to hitting the reverse side of the bunker and going over the green. Death in either case.

There is nothing the holes needs to be done to be improved. Paul's idea is the only way to change what has been a rather successful routing for 89 years.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2008, 02:28:30 PM »
The front right bunker has a kick plate on it's green side that when struck, yields the same type of result as a well played shot to a Redan.


How big is this "Kick-Plate"?

You suggest in the above post that it is merely the backside of a bunker that appears to be 10 - 15 yards from the nearest edge of the green, yet in your most recent response to me you are advocating the entire apron approach is the area that provides the risk/reward.

I was referring to the risk of aiming for the back-side of a bunker 15 yards away from the green. The reward being that the ball might just bound over out of the rough and onto the green if you can hit that spot...how big is that spot?


Within the company Pebble Beach keeps[/i], I would say there are no holes at Merion, Pine Valley or Shinnecock quite as mediocre as #12 at Pebble Beach...notwithstanding Adam's strategic kick plate...

Bold and italics added by me, but I think re-reading that line makes it clear that I was placing Pebble Beach within the company of the best courses I have played in the United States and then contrasting the lack of a hole quite so mediocre on its own at either of the other three.


As for your question... "Are you sticking up for all your fellow pros?"

???




As an aside...is it really dead over the green?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2008, 06:55:13 PM »

Anthony Gray is wrong about the ongoing discussions about the 12th.  People have not articulated what is wrong with the hole. They all seem to just dismiss it as poor. Not one person has articulated why the hole is bad. They all seem to be religiously following something they read in a book, somewhere.   

Adam,

I agree with you.

As I stated earlier, I think the hole suffers due to comparitive analysis with respect to the other holes at PB, but, on it's own, I think it's a good hole.

I too would ask, what's wrong with it ?

Some might feel it's not "flashy" enough.
Or that it doesn't have the same eye candy surrounding it.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2008, 07:24:12 PM »

David S,

You suggest #12 at Spyglass is better than #12 at Pebble as a 180 yard downhill par 3?

I love many parts of Spyglass but #12 and #15 are probably, in this small mind, the weakest parts of that course. Pebble #12 allows for some strategy and gives some options whereas #12 at Spyglass does not. If the pin is to the right on Pebble, I can play safe to the right side and hopefully get on the green and have a decent putt. If the pin is left, I have a choice of playing safe to the right, taking a chance and challenging the front bunker (and those in back) but if I get into a bunker, I still have a chance of getting up and down. If I am in the drink at Spyglass, chances of a par are essentially nil.

Also, the tee shot on 12 Pebble calls for a draw which follows a hole which calls for a straight drive or a slight fade. Few shots on Pebble call for a draw and this is one.

Bob J

Bob, yes, this small mind is suggesting that. ;) Make no mistake, 12 at Spyglass is not an ideal hole for me, but I do think it is a better hole. Keep in mind, we are comparing some of the more mundane holes between the two courses, so I agree w/ you in that respect. I don't think 12 at PB is as bad some make it out to be. I think Pat is spot on, the company it keeps makes it tough to be fair w/ it. As for the 12th at SH, I think the fact that the pin position dictates how much risk do you want to take in regards to carrying the water hazard makes it more exciting of a hole. And if it is cut up front, there is somewhat of a ala Redan green where it will run away from you if you are not careful. As for it requring a draw at PB, you are right, but that in itself is not enough to make it better than SH just because it requires a shot that is in the minority in relation to other shots there. In addition, you don't have to aim at the drink as you say. One can still make par without doing so regardless of where the pin is. I aimed away to the right, chipped to a middle pin placement and one putted. Aside from making 3 at the 4th, one of the only highlights of my round. :(
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

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