[Kenny Baer]

What would the pros do to PV, or Cypress, or NGLA, or Pacific Dunes, or whatever.  Pros being able to shoot low scores should have NOTHING to do with anything.  Even though CK isn't easy for pros.

[Anthony Gray]

    I assume that for a course to be top 10 it would need to be a "championship course" which it is not. I believe Tom Doak could have made it that way but thankfully that was not the plan.

    Pebble Beach has had majors I think.

    Anthony





 

[Kenny Baer]

"Pebble Beach has had majors I think."

R U Serious???

[Kalen Braley]

I'd have to agree with the group on this one.

This is a damn fine top 20 list:

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
St. Andrews Old
Augusta National
Pebble Beach
Shinnecock Hills
Royal County Down
Murfield
Oakmont
Merion (East)
Sand Hills
Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
Pacific Dunes
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
NGLA
Pinehurst #2
Royal Dornoch
Turnberry Ailsa
Seminole

And no disrespect to CP, but its hard to see it breaking thru against courses like these so soon. The TV event was a really nice start, but no doubt its needs more vetting.

[David_Elvins]

  In the top 10 list. I see no resort courses.

   Anthony

Pac Dunes and Barnbougle Dunes are both resort courses that are knocking on the door of the top 10.  Pebble Beach is a resort course.
Its not impossible for a resort course to get in there.

When Tom Doak designs a resort course it might be better than his non-resort work because he makes more of an effort ot make them playable.

[Carl Rogers]

I always thought you had to give a course 10 years before you could rate it.

Postulate the question:
Does the setting of a course improve the ranking of a course??

It usually does I think?!?!

1. Cape Kid may well prove the inverse of that in its overpowering setting may make it difficult to assess its design quality.  
2. It was not intended to be a gut buster of a course for really good players.

I agree it seems like a place to play before you die.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

I don't really think Cape Kidnappers is too easy for the premier player.  It wasn't "set up" for the Kiwi Challenge at all ... they didn't grow the rough in or grow it high or anything, and they kept the greens slow just in case it got windy.  Four tour pros played it on a dead calm day, and the scores were 65-66-71-74.  (That's six under, five under, even par, and three over.)  And that's on a calm day.

I would suggest that, under similar circumstances, Cypress Point, St. Andrews and even Shinnecock might be equally yielding.

Kenny:

There are two reasons why Cape Kidnappers doesn't get many nominations for a top ten list. 

The first reason is simply that it was built after the top ten were already in place ... it's hard for any modern course to knock off those entrenched at the top, because there's not much wrong with any of them.  (However, if you assumed that some modern courses were in the top ten, it would be hard to knock them out, too.)

The second reason ... if the course has a weakness, it's in the lack of diverse recovery play.  Some really wayward shots are simply GONE ... no recovery, just reload.  (True of Pebble Beach, too.)  But the lack of sandy soils means there are only two types of grass ... short, or thicker than hell and a crapshoot to recover from.  Most great courses are much more interesting than the average course in recovery play ... and Pine Valley is #1 because it has more interesting recovery shots than any course.

However, it is good to know that at least one or two people DO think Cape Kidnappers belongs in the top ten.  Back in September the Telegraph (UK) rated the course #1 in the world!  (Royal County Down was #2, Pebble Beach #3.)  See:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ultratravel/2633125/The-worlds-top-ten-golf-courses.html


I don't really take that seriously, but I do take it as a compliment.

[David_Elvins]

Tom Doak,

Did seeing the pros play it, make you re-evaluate your appreciation of the course at all?

[George Pazin]

I haven't played any of those so this could sound dumb...

Oakmont vs. Cape Kid

Personally I would rather play Cape Kidnappers anyday.

Is Oakmont a great golf course, yes, does it have interesting green complexes and tremendous history, yes, with the tree removal is it spectacular..yes.  Would you rather play there or on 600 ft cliffs jutting into the abyss with equal arch. interest, I would rather play on the 600 ft cliffs.  Oakmont is awesome but is the strategic interest of the golf course any better than Cape Kid?  From what I have seen of both, I would say no; those being equal then w/o question Cape Kid has superior setting; (my apologies to those who are big fans of the PA Turnpike).  A hole by hole comparison IMO CK wins 3 & 1.  The only thing Oakmont has going for it that CK does not is tradition and history; which has nothing to do with the course itself. 

I am crossing you off my Christmas card list...

Seriously, did you just do a hole by hole match play with a course you have only seen on TV?

The Burgh will never compare with the setting of CK, nor the setting of most of the others in the top 10 (or even top 100), but if you can't see the genius of Oakmont, wow, I feel sorry for you.

And I'll even add that CK may win 18-0 over Oakmont, but you sure can't tell that from the tube. To say Oakmont only has tradition and history over CK when you haven't played CK is just plain lazy thinking. Actually, it's not thinking at all, it's just emoting (which is very much in vogue these days, so you have that going for you).

[Tom_Doak]

Take it easy, George ... Oakmont is barely in the top ten itself. 

Kenny ... are you starting to see that the top ten is a moving target?  Those defending Oakmont insist a top 10 course has to be a championship course -- even though Pine Valley and Cypress Point are not.  Those defending Cypress Point insist that raw natural scenery is essential, even though Oakmont doesn't have it.  Those defending St. Andrews will point out the necessity for short game interest, even though Royal County Down doesn't have much of that; while those defending Royal County Down insist that a top ten course must require you to drive the ball well, even though St. Andrews doesn't.

[Mike Benham]

Where does CK rank amongst Doak's courses ... ?


Greatest does not mean most difficult, easiest, most fun or easiest to get to for a quick round ... part of the problem of any Top 10 list is a clear set of criteria to judge each course.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'd say the moving target nature of this kinda proves my point - that these courses just have SOMETHING that makes them great, as difficult to define as that might be... and cracking their ranks is just that much more difficult because of it.  You can't pin it on any one thing.

That being said, it is certainly not impossible; one only look at Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes.  What CK will seemingly always have going against it is lack of eyeballs... although hopefully that improves, via TV or otherwise.

TH

ps to Mike - great minds - I typed as yours got posted!

[Ash Towe]

I have played CK 5 times, in various conditions from sublime to a gale.  The scenary is just incredible, indeed it may be difficult to assess the courses merits because of what is around it.
The telecast has not played in NZ yet, I believe it will be Thursday of next week.  From what has been written I believe little if any of the front nine has been shown.  This is a shame as there are some superb holes and they need to be looked at so that a complete assessment can be made. 
Is it a top 10 course?  I dont know, as I have not played enough of the top 10.  It is certainley one of the most spectacular and definetely a must play at least once.

[Wade Whitehead]

I'll go out on a limb:

If anyone would like to arrange for me to play Cape Kidnappers, Oakmont, Pine Valley, and Cypress Point, I'll think about it, make a decision, and put this thread to rest.  I'll gladly play any of the other "Top 10" courses for comparison's sake as well.

WW

[Anthony Gray]

  In the top 10 list. I see no resort courses.

   Anthony

Pac Dunes and Barnbougle Dunes are both resort courses that are knocking on the door of the top 10.  Pebble Beach is a resort course.
Its not impossible for a resort course to get in there.

When Tom Doak designs a resort course it might be better than his non-resort work because he makes more of an effort ot make them playable.

   David,

  This is my point. Of the top 10 courses metioned I wuold think that you would score better on CK than those top 10.

         Anthony

[David_Elvins]

  In the top 10 list. I see no resort courses.

   Anthony

Pac Dunes and Barnbougle Dunes are both resort courses that are knocking on the door of the top 10.  Pebble Beach is a resort course.
Its not impossible for a resort course to get in there.

When Tom Doak designs a resort course it might be better than his non-resort work because he makes more of an effort ot make them playable.

   David,

  This is my point. Of the top 10 courses metioned I wuold think that you would score better on CK than those top 10.

         Anthony

Of the 'top 10' course I am familiar with, I dont see anything particularly hard about The Old Course, Royal Melbourne, Augusta National or Cypress Point. 

Which just goes to show, as Tom Doak mentioned, that difficulty does not have much to do with course rankings.

[Paul_Turner]

A quick look at Ran's photos should confirm that County Down has plenty of short game interest.  (And remains playable in 20 mph winds)

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

I don't really think Cape Kidnappers is too easy for the premier player.  It wasn't "set up" for the Kiwi Challenge at all ... they didn't grow the rough in or grow it high or anything, and they kept the greens slow just in case it got windy.  Four tour pros played it on a dead calm day, and the scores were 65-66-71-74.  (That's six under, five under, even par, and three over.)  And that's on a calm day.

I would suggest that, under similar circumstances, Cypress Point, St. Andrews and even Shinnecock might be equally yielding.

    Tom,

  In an earlier thread I said that I liked the way CK was playable off the tee. I hopefully complimented you by saying it looks like you resisted placeing bunkers that would tighten the course and make it much more difficult to play, which in turn makes it less fun for the average player. I also said in this thread that if wanted it could play more difficult but that was not the desire of the dsign. But I believe when people think of a top 10 course they think of a "championship course". And from your comments and the TV it looks like the goal for CK was for a resort. I do believe that if you wanted to make it a "championship course" you would make it more difficult of the tee. Am I wrong?

   I will add that some will not agree with my criteria of a top 10 course it needs to be of "championship" status. For me the best course in the world is Cruden Bay but it is not a top 10 course or a top 10 on the Doak scale.


     Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

For most players, outside the architecture world, they would prefer to play a course like Cape Kidnappers before Muirfield and Merion no matter how outstanding the design is on both those places...

I've never seen it but I would think Cape Kidnappers gets your heart pumping on multiple occasions

   I totally agree with you Philippe. Given the choice I would take CK over the othes.


     Anthony

[Eric Smith]

Where does CK rank amongst Doak's courses ... ?

13

35

41

82

These are the current rankings of Tom Doak's courses in the World Top 100 according to GOLF Magazine.

Guess which one is Cape Kidnappers.  (27 in the world three years ago.) 

As far as the comparison to Oakmont (currently 9 in the world), in that same ranking in 2005, Oakmont was 14, so the spread was 13.  Some real go-getters within that 13 for sure, but CK is and was hanging with the best of the best.  It is still a baby, for heaven's sake.

That one at 82 gets lots of love and it's a baby too. 

Is it a good bet where IT is headed?
 

 
 

[Anthony Gray]

  Eric,

  Great post. Did you see how these guys are critisizing me. Help me Oprah Winfry. Help me Tom Cruise do some vodoo I am on fire.

  Anthony

[Tim Bert]

 
  It is just too easy for the premier player.


               Anthony

So is Cypress Point.

   Then why is it in the top 10?

  Anthony

I recommend "Alister MacKenzie's Cypress Point Club" by Geoff Shackelford as a good reference.

[Reef Wilson]

This reminds me of a conversation I had with some folks last week. If you forget age, history and mystique
courses would rank differently. These things have little to nothing to do with how the course plays. There is a reason no modern course is in the top ten. If you were to take Pine Valley and Pac Dunes, erase your impressions and knowledge of them, yet retain your general appreciation of golf courses and just make them course A and course B, go there and play them, how would they stack up? Where would CK be?

An impossible exercise of course, but interesting to realize how set in stone these lists are before a course like Kidnappers comes along.

On a personal note I eagerly await my next trip to NZ to check out CK!
Reef

[Chris Kane]

I wonder if the television-based perception of the GCA treehouse would be different if they were told that Cape Kidnappers was designed by Jack Nicklaus or Tom Fazio.

[Jim Nugent]

Now that more of the world has seen CK, here's hoping it gets more big events.  Presidents Cup, anyone? 

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