[Kyle Harris]

  Bunkers were made by sheep. Sod faces are an attempt to maintain them. There is nothing unnatural about that.

   Anthony

Yes there is, the whole point of 'maintenance' is to counteract nature.

[Anthony Gray]

  Bunkers were made by sheep. Sod faces are an attempt to maintain them. There is nothing unnatural about that.

   Anthony

Yes there is, the whole point of 'maintenance' is to counteract nature.

  Kyle,

  You would not have a course without maintenance.

        Anthony

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kyle

The early bunker on TOC had a habit of filling with water something to do with the water table. Old Tom had some of the problem bunkers filled in reducing the original depth thus resolving the problem. A natural process in time with the aid of the winds would have filled the bunkers anyway, all the Keep of The Green did was speed up the process for the convenience of the golfers. Maintenance is a loose term it’s not just about maintaining the status quo but encompasses many procedures including preventive works.

However, as we all know all things are not black or white, things change with age, but I feel that some common sense needs to be injected into this site if we are going to have meaningful debates. I could argue many points on the same basis but it would not be productive just antagonistic. Surely that is not what this site wants.

I enjoy golf the way it was introduced to me. I use clubs from the 80’s because I am happy and comfortable with them. I use the modern ball because that is what is available. I would love to see the game worldwide revert to Hickory shafted clubs and the gutty ball, but that will not happen, does not mean I am wrong, just in the minority. I would love to see technology used to re-invent the gutty so it would not shatter and Hickory that would not loose its head or break. I know that Hickory games are available but its not common practice.

If by chance we have not expressed ourselves clearly then why not question the comment before jumping in feet first. There is certainly a difference in the language we speak & write and at times interpretation is taken not in the manner it was initially intended. React with a strong statement will inevitable be countered with an equally strong statement and the quality of the debate suffers. I am certainly not innocent but at times my comments are a statement which has been misunderstood and some have considered rightly or wrongly as criticism or an insult. I have for my part been more that happy to apologise when I believe I have overstepped the mark.

I think we all know what Anthony meant and I have taken it on board that way.

Melvyn

[Andy Hughes]

I just want to be clear on what is meant by unnatural when it comes to bunker shapes, like a circular bunker. Is it that sand blowouts in nature are never perfectly round, or that you believe that the round shape is itself an unnatural shape?

Kirk, I am not sure if you are asking me because I started kvetching about the perfectly round bunkers?  If so, my issue is actually twofold:
1. The picture of the Road Hole bunker (and there are many others at TOC) shows a hazard that could never be confused with anything that occurred naturally. (Having said that, it does not detract from the playing qualities of the course.)
2. Some on this site have railed against those courses that in their minds go against nature or are created by removing what nature provided and creating something new manually.  They have talked about the soul of the land or the course, or the different feeling they have on one type vs the other.  I am curious if that applies to all courses, or some courses get a free pass from that type of criticism by virtue of location or age or history. 

EDIT: I realize I did not even answer your question. It is that there are no natural sand formations that I have seen that have the perfect shapes and sharp edges exhibited by TOC bunkers today.

[Andy Hughes]

I like all styles of courses but I favor the "natural ones". I prefer golf only courses like Pac, TOC, The Honors, etc. These courses provide a better experience for me than say Pinehurst. Pinehurst is a great course but the houses lessen the experience.

Anthony, most of that makes perfect sense.  I am sure most would agree.

However, TOC begins and ends in the town itself, with buildings all about. Parts of buildings are used as aiming points, you intentionally hit over a 'railway shed' and you may find yourself on roads in several places. Does that not have any impact on you as it does at Pinehurst or elsewhere? Is the experience not lessened for?

Is your feel or sense of place at all impacted at TOC by the appearance of the bunkers, or would you feel just the same if the bunkers had a more natural appearance? I wonder how Melvyn feels about that?

[TEPaul]

"It is that there are no natural sand formations that I have seen that have the perfect shapes and sharp edges exhibited by TOC bunkers today."

Andy:

Frankly that's not the case at all with basically straight sand. There are plenty of sand formations completely created by the forces of Nature (almost exclusively wind) that are miraculously perfect shapes and remarkably sharp edges. We can see them in extremely large form in places like the Sahara Desert and in smaller form in natural dunes. There is a State Park on both sides of old A1A on the coast of Florida above the Jacksonville Naval Base which has thousands of these perfect sand shapes with incredibly sharp top edges. If the wind is really blowing you can actually watch the incredibly sharp top lines both evolving and devolving with the wind. The shapes that result are actually Nature's own architectural formulae in action. When you throw in some vegetation around this natural operation of the formation of sand shapes it gets craggy and random. Over the years I've spent a number of hours in there just watching this happen. It's truly beautiful to see these completely naturally formed shapes and even more beautiful to see Nature at work in the actual process of making them.

[Andy Hughes]

Tom, so I am clear on what you are saying, you saw sand formations being created that looked like this, with the finely manicured grass and the perfectly round shape?:

That's extraordinary.

Do you not find it a little odd that, as far as I know, bunkers at TOC did not appear so perfectly round and so finely manicured until the maintenance made them that way recently? For those who know better, are there any naturally formed sand blowouts in the dunes around TOC that look like the Road Hole bunker?  I am perfectly willing to be disabused of the notion but I do not recall ever seeing a natural formation like that anywhere near any of the courses I have played in Scotland (admittedly a number of years ago).

[Anthony Gray]

  Andy,

  No absolutes. I think the buildings at TOC add charm and do not detract from the golf. It is not the same as golfing in somebody's neighborhood.
You bring up an excellent point. There are man made features that appear natural. I am all for that. As far as bunkering at TOC I have never seen them as unnatural. The bunkering at Kiawah has very unnatural shapes but it fits the course and I like it. I do not think that it violates the spirit of the game but it does not belong on a links course.

     Thanks Andy for your input.

        Anthony

[TEPaul]

"Tom, so I am clear on what you are saying, you saw sand formations being created that looked like this, with the finely manicured grass and the perfectly round shape?"

Andy:

Come on now, of course that's not what I said or am saying.

Do you see that fine curvilinear line at the top of the revetting and the same at the bottom of the revetting as well as around the incoming part of the bunker?

That is all I'm talking about and I'm only talking about the natural ability of straight sand to form into that basic curvilinear line through the forces of Nature (sort of in the shape of an arc, if you know what I mean). I've never seen a complete and perfect circle made by Nature with sand just the basic curvilinear arc-like line on top which can be remarkably sharp in Nature.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Andy

Let’s get things into perspective. Not a catch question but what came first TOC or railways? That should answer most of your own questions.

As for round/pot or whatever you call these bunkers, I have see similar pot holes in natural rock formations or where the roof of a cave has collapsed forming a round pot hole - I will say that most are filled with water. Also I have seen natural layering of the sand/sediments which remind me of the sod lined bunkers. To me they are all natural and part of nature, but have been incorporated into a golf course. Yes they are not necessary natural on Scottish courses but may well become a feature on Mexican. But that’s splitting hairs, golf course are there for the public to enjoy and generate revenue, so there will (regrettable) be some features that are questionable, but if we want to play golf we have to accept them unless you have the money to build your own course – which I have not..

About time we introduced some common sense, but I am sorry you can’t seem to understand, pity really but then in truth why should I care or worry. I have the links courses I love near at hand. I’m not the one missing out on these wonderful enjoyable courses with beautiful views. Perhaps I am just fortunate, no just bloody lucky. 

As I said earlier we are talking about golf courses and I though my previous posts on this topic have made my opinions clear. May I respectfully request that you re-read my last 3-4 post on this subject.   

[Kirk Gill]

I realize I did not even answer your question. It is that there are no natural sand formations that I have seen that have the perfect shapes and sharp edges exhibited by TOC bunkers today.

The reason I asked this question is that nature provides us with a remarkable variety of shapes. I remember reading on this site that Mackenzie said that some of his bunker shapes were inspired by the shape of cloud formations. A natural shape, certainly, and his bunkering style is beloved by many (some of the recently posted pictures of his early design work notwithstanding). But look me closely in the eye......and what do you see? A perfectly circular iris, and a perfectly circular pupil. Natural shapes. Go to the fridge and see if you've got an egg in there. Nice ovoid, and perfectly natural.

So what is it that makes those shapes seem out of place on a golf course? It is NOT that they are inherently unnatural. Is it simply that they are too regular, and thus seem manufactured, even if the shapes are found elsewhere in nature? Is it as I asked above, that they simply don't look like a sandy blowout would look in nature? I have a hard time with that one, since the overwhelming majority of golfers have never in their lives seen a natural sandy blowout, anywhere, so they have no basis for comparison.

Or is it simply a matter of taste, based on experience and personal inclination?

[Andy Hughes]

That is all I'm talking about and I'm only talking about the natural ability of straight sand to form into that basic curvilinear line through the forces of Nature (sort of in the shape of an arc, if you know what I mean).

Tom, thanks for the clarification. My point has been in reference to the perfect circles the bunkers at TOC have become as illustrated by the picture of the Road Hole bunker I included, not individual little arcs. So while I appreciate your input I am not sure it is fair to say 'that's not the case at all', when the bunkers I am describing are in reality nowhere found in nature, Melvyn's protestations notwithstanding.

I think the buildings at TOC add charm and do not detract from the golf. It is not the same as golfing in somebody's neighborhood.

Anthony, truth be told I agree with you entirely, but I'll be darned if I know why, especially since golfing in someone's neighborhood is exactly what you are doing at TOC.  I have yet to figure out why it is charming at some places like TOC or North Berwick but a negative elsewhere, such as Pinehurst as you mentioned. I suspect it has something to do with age.

[TEPaul]

"Do you not find it a little odd that, as far as I know, bunkers at TOC did not appear so perfectly round and so finely manicured until the maintenance made them that way recently? For those who know better, are there any naturally formed sand blowouts in the dunes around TOC that look like the Road Hole bunker?  I am perfectly willing to be disabused of the notion but I do not recall ever seeing a natural formation like that anywhere near any of the courses I have played in Scotland (admittedly a number of years ago)."


Andy:

I'm definitely no expert on the history of architecture and maintenance practices of linksland courses like TOC but I believe the rather clean-lined bunker look you see today basically known as "revetting" is a relative recent look in the context of the entire evolution of golf course architecture and maintenance. I definitely do not think that look ever existed in say the 19th century or even the early 20th century. I know the board sleepers did but I don't think that clean revetted look did back then.
 
 

[Anthony Gray]

  Kirk,

  Circular shapes of sand do not occur in nature. But in all the times I have spent on links courses they have not appeared as unnatural.

  Andy,

  Bandon would not be Bandon if it had home sites. They even resisted placeing the clubhouse overlooking the ocean. I live on a golf course and the golf would be better if I didn't spend so much time in my neighbors backyards.

       Great points fellows......Anthony

[Andy Hughes]

Let’s get things into perspective. Not a catch question but what came first TOC or railways? That should answer most of your own questions.

Melvyn, I am going to have to go with curtain one and say TOC, though I don't see how that answers much of anything.  Because TOC was there before the rr then anything that is done to the course everafter is therefore of a natural appearance? That makes no sense and is surely not what you are implying.

As I said earlier we are talking about golf courses and I though my previous posts on this topic have made my opinions clear. May I respectfully request that you re-read my last 3-4 post on this subject.

I have done so, and I still think you are unable to apply your own standards to those you hold dear.  You posted before and after pictures of the Castle Course and have railed against it because the land was changed, presumably unnaturally, to change it from the farmland to a links course.  You have talked repeatedly about the need for courses to appear and be natural. But when one of the most noticable and key components of one of your favorites takes on a clearly unnatural appearance, your outlook changes. In that case, courses are 'there for the public to enjoy', or you point to a cave you have seen somewhere as justification for bunkers appearing as they never do either in nature or more specifically anywhere at all in the St Andrews region.
I believe your position would make more sense if it was applied more consistenly.  In the end, you love the courses you play and that really is all that matters, and I am happy for you (and a bit envious, of course).

[Andy Hughes]

But look me closely in the eye......and what do you see? A perfectly circular iris, and a perfectly circular pupil. Natural shapes. Go to the fridge and see if you've got an egg in there. Nice ovoid, and perfectly natural.

Kirk, that is a good example. But I have not objected to the fact that the bunkers are such perfect circles and that can never happen in nature. My problem with the perfect circles is that nature doesn't make sandy areas into perfect circles with the perfect maintenance around it, especially on a course that is supposed to be mostly au natural and virtually untouched by the hand of man.

So what is it that makes those shapes seem out of place on a golf course? It is NOT that they are inherently unnatural.

Kirk, I believe you have that exactly backwards. It is indeed because a sandy area like that is absolutely unnatural that makes it seem out of place. The shape itself is possible naturally, but not in this context.

Is it as I asked above, that they simply don't look like a sandy blowout would look in nature? I have a hard time with that one, since the overwhelming majority of golfers have never in their lives seen a natural sandy blowout, anywhere, so they have no basis for comparison.

But the majority of golfers are not discussing it, Kirk and Andy are.  Also, I suspect you are wrong about the majorities take on sand blowouts--I have never seen a wallaroo but if I did and it had a perfect sphere for a head it would look unnatural to me

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

The sod or riveted bunkers go back to the 19th Century, some months ago on here there was a topic on North Berwick which I believe Bill posted some photos of sod lined bunkers as well as Hell Bunker. The Hell Bunker circa 1891-5 photo showed a sod bank on part of the bunker.

Melvyn

[Melvyn Morrow]

Andy

I am not justifying anything on TOC all I am actually saying is that items you describe as not natural can be found around the world in their own right  - formed by Nature. I am not saying anything more.

I will repeat that a course IMHO should blend in with its surroundings be natural so as you look away from the course you still see the contours/features of the land either by looking left or right (excluding the sea of course). It should give you a balance and harmony that the eye can follow. The Castle Course is in the middle of farm land (again excluding the sea) and does not blend in with the surrounding land.

As for TOC is stand on its own merits, I have no intentions of defending it or the modern mods.

Clearly you don’t understand my feeling nor do you seem to care how a course sits on the land, I DO. The point perhaps is to me the land matters, and that also applied to the earlier designers. I am not saying that there is a course somewhere in a section of land but that the course needs to reflect the nature of itself and the adjoining land, that is what I look for in a course – you may well be looking for something else.

I have no real opinion on pot bunkers or sod layers to maintain the bunkers, they are there whether I like them or not, they do a job and it seems to maintain the bunker in good shape but by using natural materials. The point is that the course is part of its environment and TOC certainly fits that profile.
 
Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

  The shapes on The Castle Course are unnatural and obviously man made.
While the shapes of Kingsbarns which was constructed in the same way are more natural and provide a purer golfing experience.

 Anthony

 

[Kalen Braley]

  Circular shapes of sand do not occur in nature. But in all the times I have spent on links courses they have not appeared as unnatural.

 

Anthony,

This has to be the whopper of everything you've said on here.  You admit they don't occur in nature, but yet claim they don't appear unnatural?  I'm honestly not sure how you could come to a conclusion like this.

The reality is we all have our baises. Some prefer round oval revited bunkers that are obviously man made.  This is all fine and good, I don't have a problem with it.  But seems silly to bash other courses for man-made architecture and use TOC as the poster child for naturalness.

And whether a neighboorhood existed before or after the course was put in, it makes no difference in my book. They are still there and still take away from the man vs nature concept that so many claim to highly regard.

I'm sure TOC is an exceptional experience and I can't wait to have a chance to get over there and play it. But the hypocrisy of TOC being the shining example seems over the top when it suffers from the same weaknesses that other courses are being criticzed for.

[Kirk Gill]

  Kirk,

  Circular shapes of sand do not occur in nature. But in all the times I have spent on links courses they have not appeared as unnatural.

I agree completely. That's what starts to get to me as the whole subject of "natural vs. unnatural" in golf course design is discussed. I've read a number of Tom Doak's posts on this subject, and I think he has a very specific idea of how he wants his courses to interact with the land they occupy, and I really enjoy reading those posts and looking at his work and seeing how his philosophy is made real upon the ground.

And yet I personally am not repelled by bunker shapes and tie-ins between course and surrounds where such efforts as Tom Doak's were never envisioned or attempted. Again, I think this issue tends to revolve more around personal taste and expectations than it does any kind of immutable law.

Andy, you bring up the notion of context, and context is in many ways the crux of this issue. It is within the context of the golf course that those round shapes seem to bug you, while the fact that there's a bunch of incredibly closely-mown grass around that is not often found in nature doesn't bother you, or the rest of us, at all. It seems perfectly natural to see all that short grass.........on a golf course!

The shapes created at the Castle course may bother Melvyn more on that bit of farmland where it was built than they would had they been created close to the sea, where tie-ins to the surrounding land (the context of the course) would more closely approximate reality (or am I off-base on this, Melvyn?).

I would posit, Anthony, that the "purity" of a golf experience, or the lack thereof, exists more in your own mind than it does anywhere on any golf course.

And Kalen..........well said.

[Anthony Gray]

  Kalen and Kirk,

  Let me explain it this way. I do not look at the road hole bunker and say "Wow that's unnatural". Although you have correctly pointed out that circular sand forms do not occure in nature. But I do look at say the bunker in the front of 17 at whistling straights and say "Wow that is neat, it adds to the hole I am glad Pete put it there." I guess some things just stand out more than others and these things are usually manmade. I am not saying that they do not belong in golf.

   Anthony

[Andy Hughes]

I am not justifying anything on TOC all I am actually saying is that items you describe as not natural can be found around the world in their own right  - formed by Nature. I am not saying anything more.

Where Melvyn? Where are all the places around the world where naturally formed sand blowouts or sandy areas that look like the Road Hole bunker?

I will repeat that a course IMHO should blend in with its surroundings be natural so as you look away from the course you still see the contours/features of the land either by looking left or right (excluding the sea of course). It should give you a balance and harmony that the eye can follow. The Castle Course is in the middle of farm land (again excluding the sea) and does not blend in with the surrounding land.

That is reasonable, and if that is one of your priorities---where in the surrounding land at TOC do you see such unnatural sand features?

As for TOC is stand on its own merits, I have no intentions of defending it or the modern mods.

Unfortunately, you have made that clear. Those things you criticize other courses for you will not even begin to apply to TOC.

Clearly you don’t understand my feeling nor do you seem to care how a course sits on the land, I DO.

I do understand; I am just baffled why you apply it is such a discriminatory fashion.

I have no real opinion on pot bunkers or sod layers to maintain the bunkers, they are there whether I like them or not, they do a job and it seems to maintain the bunker in good shape but by using natural materials. The point is that the course is part of its environment and TOC certainly fits that profile.

Again Melvyn, where in TOC's environment would you see this?

[Anthony Gray]

  Andy, What do you think about this natural feature? Would you put sand in the middle of it or not?

[Kyle Harris]

Anthony/Melvyn,

I think it is a very important debate and subject to actually sit down and define what exactly is natural about golf. Anthony hit the point perfectly, without maintenance there would be no golf course. Whether one likes it or not, maintenance of a golf course is inherently UNNATURAL. Grass must be retained at a certain length against the natural tendency for the plant to grow. Weeds and other naturally introduced plants must be killed in order to maintain playing conditions. Outside materials must be introduced or moved to provide bunker material and those bunkers must be maintained and restored periodically to set back natural erosion.

We often pontificate about natural features or natural golf. The very concept is an exercise in hypocrisy. The very nature of the game is that man has picked a particular piece of land over which the game is to be played. Since the tendency of the land is to develop away from conditions suited to the game, man's hand is made evident by nature. With the need for maintenance comes the need for economic considerations and both men and machine are utilized for the purpose. Cart paths and other roads are cried down in the view of the golf hole from some arbitrary point without consideration that such paths serve a tremendous purpose for daily maintenance traffic - with or without a golf cart using membership. Berms and other sharp features are often criticized without due consideration for the turf or maintenance practices needed in the area.

I hereby call for the suspension of the word "natural" from any descriptors of a golf course. As stated earlier, the very nature of the game is to take back nature's processes in order to preserve a certain playing condition. Unless one finds a location where the grass keeps itself at 1/8" very little is natural about a green site.

I consider golf courses to make high use of features which are "aboriginal" to the site where others call them natural. I am sure links golf uses the preponderance of aboriginal features, but they are by no means "natural."

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