[Tim Gavrich]

...did not belong to one of us, unfortunately.

http://www.pgatour.com/2008/r/11/04/masters/index.html

I feel kind of validated, since my submission was also a template hole.

[Ryan Farrow]

Ok. Can someone please explain how this dry riverbed of rocks will provide an "ecologically sensitive feature recognizing the aquifer issues of the San Antonio area. " while still being playable by the amateur. It just seems a little cheap to me.

[Neil_Crafter]

seems like the winner doesn't quite understand what a Redan is - he says his green is low at front left and rising to back rear. He calls it a Reverse Redan - perhaps not as we understand one to be i.e. mirror image, but rather with a reversed green slope. In other words, not a Redan at all.
And this was the best one?

[Ian Larson]

That's a bullshit design, can't wait to see the final product. How could any half informed architecture enthusiast even try to refer to that as a reverse redan.

[Matt_Cohn]

that hole really does look basically unplayable for 90% of golfers.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hmmmm...my guess is that Reverend Norman was consulted prior to the coronation and, with his blessing, Fitgerald's design was selected.  I'll ask the contrary question and "how is it that this dry river bed could fail to represent "an ecologically sensitive feature recognizing the aquifer issues of the San Antonio area"?  I wonder if the river bed starts and finishes on the boundaries of the par three, or if it continues on in each direction?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ian, Matt,

What is wrong with that hole, other than his claims that it is a reverse redan and that the dry river bed is an ecologically sensitive feature?

Without knowing the style of the rest of the course, I find it hard to belittle the hole. It fits the topography if nothing else... And what makes it impossible to play for 90% of all golfers Matt, anymore than the many Island Greens we know? OK, it does play quite long off the back but there are forward tees too.

[Michael Blake]

Looks like it sets up nicely for my game, which is probably like most golfers...a weak slice or block out.

Take the extra club or two, aim at left side, and let the block out work its magic. 

[Rick Sides]

No offense to the winner,but it really looks like it lacks detail.  I submitted an entry that had a lot more detail include green slopes, contours, bunker depth etc.  This looks like a hole that was put together in 10 minutes of a green with some rocks in between the tee and green.  I think that the entry was selected for aesthetic purposes over substance, which unfortunately seems to be a design trend these days.

[Anthony Gray]

  Pete Dye used this concept at Teeth of the Dog. On hole 2 the left side is all rocks like a dry river bed 3 feet below the fairway. Unplayable if you are in there.

 

[Matt Varney]

If that won the contest then I am glad I didn't enter a design.

I would love to see the site / property for this golf hole but, you could sketch that hole on a napkin in about 5 minutes at lunch.  Way too simple and I agree the dry river bed rocks with the one pot bunker looks like a Pete Dye copycat hole to me.  I understand the use of river rock but where is approach for the bad player that needs a short bailout shot?

How long is this par 3?

Did you all see the LINKS magazine contest?  That was a much better design contest and you actually got to design a nice par 4.  The winner got to work with Arthur Hills and his team on creating the design and construction of that hole.

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah, that seems like a pretty broad interpretation of the word redan.

[Paul Stephenson]

Hmmmm...my guess is that Reverend Norman was consulted prior to the coronation and, with his blessing, Fitgerald's design was selected.  I'll ask the contrary question and "how is it that this dry river bed could fail to represent "an ecologically sensitive feature recognizing the aquifer issues of the San Antonio area"?  I wonder if the river bed starts and finishes on the boundaries of the par three, or if it continues on in each direction?

Actually the hole is going to be on Dye's course.  Pete and Alice were on the selection committee.

I do agree that the "reverse" Redan comment should never have gotten past the editor.

[Ian Larson]

There are two problems with the design...

The first problem is that the reverse redan label was slapped on it. If they wouldnt have called it a reverse redan I would accept it a little more. The only thing "reverse redan"-like about it is the general shape of the green. The internal contours are not conducive to how a redan type green plays, the redans Im familiar with and have played. How does this incorporate any redan strategy? Theres no easy bail out approach or even a hillside to give the ball a kick towards the green. This hole creates only one shot option, go for the pin. Its nothing like a redan and its pretty remarkable that this went through the Dyes and Norman as being called one.

The second problem is the artistry and creativeness, there is none. And with all the plans the Dyes and Norman have seen over the years that is also pretty remarkable this one was chosen.

And is that a small pond right beside the tee? What is that?

I also think its funny that this guy lives right in Fazio's backyard down in Hendersonville, NC.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I do agree that the "reverse" Redan comment should never have gotten past the editor.

I'm happy it got past the editors. It highlights that these prizes are going to go to those with the best drawing talent, not to those with good design knowledge and ability.

BTW, since when do "dry riverbeds" lie on slopes above the low points of the land? Did water start flowing across slopes instead of down slopes? Isaac N would be either amused or outraged.

[Matt_Cohn]

Ian, Matt,

What is wrong with that hole, other than his claims that it is a reverse redan and that the dry river bed is an ecologically sensitive feature?

Without knowing the style of the rest of the course, I find it hard to belittle the hole. It fits the topography if nothing else... And what makes it impossible to play for 90% of all golfers Matt, anymore than the many Island Greens we know? OK, it does play quite long off the back but there are forward tees too.

Yeah, it's like 230 from the back tees, so the forward tees are...190? 200? 215?

[RJ_Daley]

Amatuer armchair architectue ain't what it used to be... 

[Charlie Goerges]

Let's call it an Inverse Redan

[Carl Rogers]

In all design competitions, the 'winner' is always a function for the judges attitude, assumptions, perspectives and how they got out of bed that morning, not the individual creating the winning entry.

I am clearly disapointed but of course but not surprised that my entry was not chosen.

My green shape was almost the same shape as this proposal but reversed. 
Other ('incorrect')assumptions I made:
- they wanted something theatrical...so I extended the pond toward the green, creating a dual-level hazard that would catch a shot right and short, a natural area surrounded the pond(s), that ran up to the fringe
-the existing slope was much too steep for a green and in particular the green speeds required for pro golf, thus the some shaping would be required, and that dirt was pushed up hill for fan viewing areas with a swale chipping area long and left defined by a short rock retaining wall
- the side hill run-up option was intentionally developed so the 155 yd hybrid shot could be attempted...

ce la vie

[Bill Brightly]

Worst part is the guy belongs to a Raynor course...he should know what a Redan is...

[Kalen Braley]

If anything, its a Redan that's been rotated left about 135 degrees around that front bunker.

So the lower back portion, is now the lower front/left side portion...and the upper front is now the upper/back right portion.

  

Still agree though with basic premise, there must have been something alot more interesting than this.  As is, it looks like a JN par 3 where a fade is the preferred play.

[Carl Nichols]

This looks like something I could've come up with in about one minute.  (And probably would've, since I'm left-handed and I find it much easier to hit a draw.)  Given my complete lack of talent in this area, that's proof to me that there must have been many better entries.

[Adam Clayman]

Other than the potish like bunker, the hole reminds me of some Arnie/Ed work from that golden oldie's era, the eighties/nineties. Where's the miss? The banana bunker appears to extend too far in the rear. 

[Tim Nugent]

Boy, miss a little - miss alot.  Been too busy for GCA and when I come back I see this???  You have got to be kidding.  This should be titled " David Letterman's top 10 'what's wrong with this picture'".  Wish they would have include the rest of the tees so I could see if just the forward tee was 6' below the back banana bunker ie. they're never going to see it until they're in it.  Notice the humpback contours in the back half of the green.  Does anyone really think Aunt Sallie's going to hold that bunker shot on the green?  Plus, those rocks are, by definition, a water hazard.  Nice relief from that!
As already noted, the rock stream is on a hillside above the swale, a piss-ant pond the size of what the forward tee should be resides on a 4' cross-slope and will be nothing more than a stinky, algrea breeding farm.  Let's not forget that the front "pot bunker" is too close to the green and has no depth to it.  If you want some depth, say 4', it will have to slide back and then be deeper than the bottom of the  rock stream.
Alas, don't fear - Pete will fix all these shortcomings,  Wanna bet the finished product is slightly different?  Good thing about these contests.  they allow me to justify my fee.

[Brett Morris]

Can the guys who also entered but missed out post their designs so we can all have a look?

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