[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Help me out please. How do you say that the 8th doesn't play downhill ?

I mean we played the same hole didn't we ?

I know what I have played on the half a dozen rounds I have played at the course. The hole drops a good bit from the varying tee boxes you play -- especially the two rear areas.

Yes, and I appreciate your understanding, of the argument I made outlining how big the green is at #8. People are frightened when they play the hole and for that Rider deserves considerable credit -- the green sits down and it looks like both sides of the canyon are CLOSING in so TIGHT to the actual target. That can prove to be considerably unnerving.

In regards to the 5th -- we do agree. The issue is a psych job thrown forward by architect Dennis Rider. The hole is really a par-4 because even from the back tees -- top players will have no more than a very short iron into the hole -- unless they encounter a rare headwind.

Tim, I've hit 3-metal into the green from the tips with a slight helping wind on more than one occasion. No doubt reaching the green with a driver is no small feat -- but my God, c'mon, we are talking about a par-4 hole. When should a play into a green of a par-4 hole be considered easy? Even the lay-up option doesn't provide an easy second shot with a wedge and that was my point to Andy on the merits of the hole. It can provide a range of score from 2 to 7 or 8. I see that as big time plus.

Tim, you are also spot on / re: tee shots at #12 and #14. The 12th is a great par-5 hole -- likely one of the best holes in Nevada. The tee shot invites the big play but if you turn the shot over to much from right-to-left it's H20 land ! The favored shot is a soft draw so you can reap the advantage of a longer roll out. The green is narrow and quite deep -- the best pin placement is on the extreme shelf in the far rear -- a superb pin placement because even if won were to hit the green in two -- which can be done -- the regularity of a quick and easy two-putt birdie is no cinch.

The 14th is no doubt man made and the ripples in the fairway look a bit out of place but overall -- the hole is a real bear -- generally you play the hole into a headwind -- on some days it can be extremely fierce. The approach is also no piece of cake -- the further left the pin the more club you'll need to get there.

You are abosolutely right -- two superb holes on the back side that few mention. I might also add the short par-4 13th is also well done.

Tim, your last point reflects what I feel about Wolf Creek -- it is adventure golf and quite fun to play even with the admitted shortcomings in the situations previously outlined by me and Andy.

Andy:

With all due respect ... "worthless" -- really?

I'm not a parrot -- if you want people to simply nod their head and agree with you -- point-by-point, suggestion-by-suggestion, I urge you to get a tape recorder and play back to yourself whatever it is you believe.

You have a certain take on Wolf Creek from a solitary play. Let me repeat -- a solitary play. I've played the place no less than a half a dozen times at different times of years with varying wind directions and velocities. I took the considerable time and effort to discuss all the elements you mentioned. If that offends your sensibilities -- then frankly you've ignored the details I provided.

I acknowledged those point in which I agree with you but I also offered my counterpoints based on the varying times I have played the course.

I have interest in what people say -- provided they can acknowledge the fact when information is presented that offers a very real difference of opinion that has credibility. No more ... no less.

[Tim Book]

Matt,

We did play the same 8th, but when you characterize the tee shot as a 'mega drop' I disagree.  It plays less one club from the 217 box.  5th and 17th are 'mega drops'. 

I also seem to like Thai food 3 days out of the week.  Lost Canyon, Mt. Woodson, Wolf Creek, Aviara, Lakota Canyon, Tobacco Road, Princeville, Club @ Black Rock, Bridges @ RSF, Landmark Oak Quarry, Oasis are all places I enjoyed and would return.

Maybe my tastes are driven by access?

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
We've discussed at least 20 different courses, this is not a Wolf Creek issue. Your tone at times comes across as arrogant at best, insulting at worst. Maybe its not intentional, but its not worth the frustration on my end. If you'd make your points without the ridiculous and unnecessary add-on comments then it might be worth continuing the debate as much of your architectural analysis is worthwhile to read--some of it we disagree on obviously--no harm in that. As it is, go ahead and make your points one more time for your own benefit. I'm done.

Tim,
I'm with you on #8. Its downhill to be sure, but no mega-drop. It plays minimum 200 yards from the blue tees, which is a bit too long for the target IMO , even for most single digit handicaps.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Here's the flip side -- if you care to consider such things ...

YOUR tone comes across as whining and crying about people who don't
march in some sort of exact step with what you believe to be true.

I pointed out the DOWNHILL nature of the 5th and 8th holes at Wolf Creek and you come back with this answer -- that my answer was only "fair" -- how bout my answer is dead on accurate and that your initial discussion of the holes and the carries involved was a bit lacking for total accuracy -- we are talking about a hole with no less than two less clubs that one would normally play for a 217-yard shot -- in addition you get desert dry air and then you have a green which you erroneously believe is not sufficiently large enough ("for the target') to handle such plays.

You get offended by my "tone" but c'mon please nuff of the child reactions that you give back with your murky qualifiers on the various comments I have made. 

I don't appreciate people realizing certain courses have been analyzed through the benefit -- I would consider multiple visits such a plus -- and that any first time plays may need a bit more understanding through the eyes of people having had that opportunity.

When I make comments that don't mimick what people say it becomes a very tired and predictable response for people to throw a tantrum that my intentions are less than honorable. I take considerable time to respond in the greatest of details -- with accuracy being a foremost consideration. If I'm wrong I say so -- I expect no less in return. Last I checked -- this was an adult site -- not a baby sitting one.

Tim:

Andy may not understand the fact -- as you correctly noted -- the size of the green at the 8th is more than sufficient to handle any decent shot that's played. Those who are spooked by the hole are intimidated by the surrounds of the canyon which give the distinct impression that the hole is more narrower than it actually is. That's a plus to the architect Dennis Rider in creating that "fright" within the golfer's heads.

If you can point out for me where I specifically said said the hole features a "mega-drop" --  please cite the reference. I know the elevation drop is at last two clubs for sure - so when people play the hole from the 217 yards markers the OVERALL NET distance needed is much less - let me point out that desert air also assists in further reducing the shot from any of the tees there. One further thing -- there's no problem in people playing from other tee boxes as needed -- happens all the time for people playing across the pond in windy conditions so that the overall qualities of a hole are within the scope of players less able to make such adjustments.

In regards to your final comments -- there are people on this site who see classical school designs AS THE ONLY WAY GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE DESIGNED. Clearly, preferences are at play here and while I too enjoy such layouts I also like to try the edgy and really different layouts that offer a far different vision on what golf can be. Wolf Creek gets little fanfare when you see what Shadow Creek gets in Vegas. Yet, Wolf Creek provides a unique spicey adventure -- not all the holes are slam dunk successes -- I've opined on a few as well as you and Andy -- but the sum total of the fun factor is what makes playing there so incredible -- as well as the stunning desert views you get from any number of vantage points when there.

[Mike Mosely]

matt, I've never been a big fan of Vegas.  Can you do a Myrtle/HH list?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike M:

Be happy to -- but I don't have as much depth of knowledge as I do with Nevada.

Can you tell me what you think of those two areas you mentioned?

Would you want such a listing to feature all courses or those that are only public ?

p.s. Mike, you said you are not a fan of Vegas courses. Fair enough. What have you played in Nevada and how long ago was it ? Thanks ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Would you prefer that I call half your comments rubbish as you do mine? I try to give you some credit even when I think you're totally wrong as point of courtesy--you might consider trying that from time to time instead of dismissing others opinions as rubbish.

Personally, IMO your comments are only "accurate" in your own mind--its a subjective exercise so "accuracy" to me is a meaningless term. I've already stated what I think of Wolf Creek and I think you're wrong on a number of accounts which I've already spelled out--including:

The 8th green being of sufficient size--its deep enough but not nearly wide enough to accept a long iron shot considering the penalty surrounding the green.

The 5th tee shot is not a reasonable shot for the average golfer playing the white tee--the white tee is where most average golfers will play at Wolf Creek. Its an easy hole for a long hitter playing any back markers. That's a poor combination. The fellows I played with made solid contact and couldn't fly the creek

The 7th hole is drivable for perhaps 1% of golfers who play there, and I bet less than 50% of those that have the capability would try it in a medal play round. As Tim mentioned, holding that green with a driver (especially downwind) would require almost a perfect shot. I don't have that kind of distance control with my driver--especially with death past the cart path. Even if the ball stops its no easy pitch back. Its a good enough little hole, but its not drivable for anyone other than evidently you.

You obviously have every right to disagree with all those--and IMO you'd be wrong. That better? Lets just agree to disagree and get on with life.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Let me try one more time -- OK?

When I corrected you on some of your assessment on Wolf Creek all I get back from you is split hair movements with the likes of words "fair" or even murkier responses that fail to acknowledge that someone who has played the course no less than a half a dozen times might just have a bit more insight to offer.

Andy, I've acknowledged your points many times -- in clear and direct language -- not with the lawyer split-hairs talk you have provided in return.

Let's talk about the holes -- again. If people play the appropriate tees there are shot situations that can happen -- the 7th can be driver by players if they played the middle or frontal tees. The challenge becomes proportionate to what they can do. I didn't suggest that the 7th is driveable from the tips as a matter of right for all golfers.

Let's talk about the 8th -- you played the hole HOW MANY TIMES? I've seen the hole in different situations and the surrounding canyon walls do have the 'EFFECT' of making the target appear smaller. If you don't notice that then your one time visit was lacking in the other details.

We agree to disagree on the 5th and Tim backs me up on that point

I'll respond to the rest of your post later.

[George Pazin]

Try to realize that Nevada doesn't have that much available land to develop given the Federal Gov't ownership of so much of it.

Matt, you know I disagree with you on the golf elements of WC, so let's set that aside for the moment. I'm curious if you know anything about whether or not they had difficulty getting permitting to build the course. I'm a little surprised the canyons aren't protected in some way.

Thanks in advance; if you don't know anything or feel uncomfortable sharing, no big deal, just thought I'd ask.

[Andy Troeger]

I'll respond to the rest of your post later.

Please don't bother. We're not accomplishing anything with continuing discussion of 5, 7, or 8. We disagree on their merits. I think the 6th is the best of the bunch in that stretch.

You seem to think I find these holes to be poor--I don't. I think there are relatively minor issues with them--they're not holes I think are great. I'd take every par three at Black Mesa over the 8th at Wolf Creek, but I do think the hole works. I hope to see Victoria National because it would seem that the 16th hole there is very similar in its shot requirements.

If we're going to continue this at all lets at least get back to the golf course as you said. The 2nd as you mentioned is a fine hole, especially from the tee. Its visually intimidating and fairly exacting while still giving the golfer options and some room to play. The 1st is a nice enough opener--gives the opportunity to play conservatively or agressively and make a wide variety of scores. I don't think #10 or 11 are great but I don't necessarily find them duds either. The 10th looks much tighter from the tee than when you reach the fairway. The 11th is a fairly basic drop shot hole. The 12th is deceiving the first time you play it in that you are lured in going farther left than is advisable. I liked the approach to the 13th. The 14th provides a fantastic vista and reminds me a bit of #12 at Black Mesa. The 15th needs wind and a back pin to add interest--I can see how it would be a challenge in that situation. Otherwise, to a middle pin without wind its a boring wedge. I really liked the 16th and 17th holes. I could see #16 being underrated--it actually encourages the long hitter to hit driver and get it down to that 50-90 yard range. One can lay back but there's an element of risk there with clearing the ravine/cliff. #17 has all kinds of options including going for it in two--takes two very precise shots but its much more possible to do than hitting driver at the 7th. It seems like they ran out of room with #18--not much to it.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

I can't say for sure -- but I have passed on your question to a few people from The Silver State who might be able to say conclusively.

No doubt if such a site were in NJ the probability in getting the needed permits would be extremely difficult -- if not impossible.

George, one other question -- when you played Wolf Creek do you remember the tee box colors you played? Can you, if memory allows, remember if the direction of the wind was helping you on the 1st and 2nd holes. I can answer why that is important when you respond.

Thanks ...


Andy:

Be sure to add such qualifiers as you have with your last post -- when you say such holes are not POOR -- the next time you post such a give and take discussion.

For all the pleading you make about me giving concessions -- which I have done on more than numerous occasions to you and others -- be sure to do likewise and move away from the tentative qualifiers you've used time and again.

Now allow me to delve into the course again ...

The 7th is driveable on more than 1% of the occasions when conditions permit. Generally, the prevailing wind allows for such things and I salute Dennis Rider for thinking along this way when the course was routed.

Let me point out another fallacy on your part - I don't expect people to play the tips -- those who can should. And only those who have sufficient control should even remotely contemplate that attempt. Wolf Creek is not sdloped in the +150 range for nothing.

If others wish to enjoy the adventure golf that Wolf Creek provides they can play the next tee boxes up and the situation changes dramatically because the distance to the hole is reduced to 281 and 263 respectively. Keep in mind -- another element you forgot -- the carry over the water is far less than the numbers I just mentioned ... you can likely reduce the number by 20 yards. Given what drivers and balls are able to do today -- I can see players thinking that they might be able to pull off such a play with a carry of 260 yards from the blue tees.

When you have desert air and a prevailing wind that helps you -- the thoughts of going for the green are certainly possible.

You assail my comments as being outrageous and solely geared towards me. I asked the folks at the course how many people have tried for the green and the response I got back is that when conditions allow it's attempted more than you might think.

You also stated the demands presented with a missed shot -- such as going long or even wide of the target. Well, that can certainly happen when you are deciding to take on such a demanding shot. My question to you is this -- should a drive into a par-4 be anything but risky? If the shot was too automatic then the very nature of the play itself would be far less than what the risk / reward dynamic needs to be. You'd also be skewing the hole to those with the length and put those who didn't go for it in a much lesser situation.

Let's discuss the 8th hole again -- shall we. The green length is 36 yards -- the front third of the green is also quite wide -- roughly 22-24 yards - the green does taper for the rear two sections but that sort of design device is not unique to Wolf Creek alone. Those who want to hunt for pins have to really play a superb shot to pull it off. At a number of the par-3's at Winged Foot / West the same concept is used -- but in a reverse manner.

Andy, you mentioned the 16th at Victoria National -- allow me to weigh in since I've played both. The hole at Victoria plays to a max of 208 yards with other distances checking in at 194 and 168 respectively. Water guards three sides and the lay-up point at the Indiana hole is in my mind even narrower to get to than what you have in Mesquite at Wolf Creek.

There's little doubt that among all the TF designed par-3 holes I have played the one at VN is among the most intimidating. The H20 practically is waiting to grab the slightest of errors. You see with the 8th at WC the canyon walls provide the fright factor to the players -- if you played the 8th from the 153 yard mark -- the nature of what the player SEES FROM THAT VANTAGE point is what makes the hole play far easier. You don't get that VISUAL CONNECTION when you play the rear two tee boxes and I salute again architect Dennis Rider by adding the uncomfortable feel factor as the player is setting up for such a shot.

We agree on #1 and #2 -- I think the latter is just a tremendous hole because it doesn't provide a cheap and easy bailout. So many times holes that provide for a bailout are really weak because the bailout has no risk attached to it -- the 2nd at WC doesn't give any free passes to any line of attack you decide upon.

In regards to the 3rd I'v weigh in on that already -- #4 is a good change of pace hole -- the uphill nature makes the hole play longer and the smart play is to the extreme left to give you the better angle.

The 5th we agree to disagree -- keep in mind, top players would play this hole as a par-4 - I routinely hit 9-iron into the green and others would do likewise -- possibly even less.

We agree on #6.

Skip 7, 8 and 9 as already discussed.

I see three main weaknesses w WC -- the 10th is just a boring long hole. The 11th is an obligatory dropshot par-3 that is fairly unconventional and robs the player in being better crafted from a design perspective. The other downer is the closing hole -- you're right -- there's not much to it. A really neat short par-4 that could eschew the inane waterfall would work much better and cap the round in a fine manner. 

The 12th I've mentioned as a great hole. I also like the stretch of holes from #13 thru #15. Andy, when events are played the rear pins would be what you would find at #15 -- the front is simply there for playability reasons. Other short par-3's would need this element especially when a hole is exposed as this one clearly is.

#16 is a mixed back. Originally the extreme tip tee was to be where the 6th tee is now. That CARRY would be EXTREME TO THE MAX AND ONLY ADVISABLE FOR THE ZUBACKS OF THIS WORLD.

I like the blind element when you tee off because you can't see where the ball finished after landing. A so-so hole that could have better.

#17 is a superb par-5 and compliments the 12th in a superb manner. Plenty of risk and lots of scores are possible there.

Andy, don't know if you have played Shadow Creek but if you have -- then the fun factor and uniqueness of WC is the better course. No doubt the classic school lovers won't find much appealing with either -- but for those who want adventure and fun thrown together WC does provide that -- even with cart rides that remind me of Indiana Jones riding those mine shaft cars in the 3rd movie !

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Sounds like we agree on a majority of the other holes. I agree the 8th is a pretty simple shot from the shorter tees--the visual intimidation isn't there from that angle and its obviously only a short iron. It certainly is a hole that stimulates debate whether one likes it or not.

I like the format of the 5th at Southern Highlands better than the 7th at Wolf Creek. WC is basically an all or nothing shot and the percentages to me just aren't good enough to make it worth trying. At Southern Highlands one has to execute to get that good birdie/eagle chance, but the big miss left is still findable. I like the hole there because its a tough/delicate shot over the bunker to a green that's angled to accept the shot from the tee more than the one from the fairway. One can still make a big number, but the recovery option is nice.

Regarding my original post--its clear to me that I wasn't being overly critical of the holes but maybe it wasn't to anyone else reading it. Mea culpa if that's the case. That would explain why I didn't particularly understand the venom in your response--I don't think we're THAT far off save for the few details we've discussed.

I haven't played Shadow Creek--these are the only courses I've played in Nevada. I'd like to see SC once it re-opens. I wouldn't mind getting to other courses in Mesquite/St. George as well, but this was primarily a work trip with some golf squeezed in.

I wouldn't play Wolf Creek if the paths were wet--its an adventure on the cart paths under good conditions, that would be downright dangerous in spots.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The issue w Shadow Creek for me and a number of others is when you ask people what makes the place special -- the net result is tied to the actual creation of the place -- that's the undelying story -- not the specifics tied to actual holes themselves. I do like the closing trio of hole at SC but WC is both a creation story and what was CREATED there.

Too many raters have been swayed by the hype fomented by Steve Wynn. I salute him because he created the fanfare tied to the course and it still lives on to this day even though he is no longer associated with the property.

Andy, the 8th at Wolf Creek is ALWAYS on the player's mind when playing the course -- especially as you reach the 6th and 7th holes. Dennis Rider deserves credit for the sequence of holes -- think about the two holes that precede it -- the 6th is well done with its glorious perched tee hovering the Nevada basin -- the 7th is seen less so by you -- but I like the gamble element you encounter there.

What makes the 8th so special is the visual intimidation element I previously mentioned -- it really gets into the head of better players because generally when you have a long par-3 hole there's really little that will keep a player from making worse than a four (4). At the 8th at Wolf Creek you've got to have TOTAL confidencce in what you are hitting from the tee. The slightest wince in any manner, shape or form and you can spend a small fortunate in pencil marks on your scorecard. Believe it or not there's room to the right then many might fathom. It seems like a dangerous play because it disappears over the ledge on that side but it's a bit more user-friendly than attemtping to shoot down the left side.

In 90% of the cases -- most people should be playing the 153 yard tees. The 214 marks are really only for single digit handicaps and the extreme tips are for even better players. I've played the 8th from the tips and had to face a headwind and literally beat on a 1-2 iron at times and it's so rewarding when you can get a ball near the target. Sometimes it pays to be cautious too -- I've seen players hit a 5-6 iron from the tips and simply decided to land well short of the green so that they can take score of 5 or more out of the equation. It's a very demanding hole and as I said previously, the architect built the fright factor through the concept of the canyons pinching in from both sides and from not being able to see the entire green target too.

One other thing before leaving -- the 13th is also a driveable par-4. The hole is listed at 350 yards but should players decide to cut the corner and head directly for the green it can be done. The "effective" distance is shortened considerably but there is a ton of danger for those who miss -- even by the slightest of margins.

I like the approach shot even if you do lay-up -- the elevation to the target is a good bit more than most think -- as much as two full clubs more although the green appears to be "right" there in front of you. A very deep target -- 40 yards in length -- and you simply must will yourself to hit sufficient club to get to such locations.

[Andy Troeger]

I thought about that as I was standing down in the fairway. The 13th is really low percentage, even if you're really good, can carry the ball a long way in the air. I could see how its possible. From the blue tee marker, I didn't think I could fly it that far (since the cliff is fairly high...its not just a matter of sheer length).

I do like the number of short par fours out there. The lack of overall length reminds me some of the older courses where its not 7500 brutal yards--you've got a couple of longer holes but many are half-par lengths. You can still make big numbers on all of them if you get careless.

I do like a lot about the 7th, the terraced fairway makes for layup options and the green is interesting. I just don't find it particularly enticing as a drivable hole.

I also used the bail out area to the right of the 8th--its not huge but its necessary to give the player some chance.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

So much on the decision at #13 depends upon the prevailing wind -- when it's blowing at 15-20 mph and if you get the ball really up in the air it can be done. No doubt the percentage for success is a good bit less than even #7. But the approach play from the safe area is no easy deal either.

You raise an excellent point -- Wolf Creek is barely at 7,000 yards -- if memory served, I think it might be just a tad less than that. How many modern courses can keep your attention without resorting to MEGA LENGHTS?

Andy, the thing I have learned to appreciate about Wolf Creek is the need to avoid steering the long shot -- that's where the trouble can bite you big time. When things get really windy on many afternoons you have to really understand your own limitations as a player because it's very possible that a big time score can happen. Some classic architecture preference guys will not like such a "live or die" consequence for their golf but when you think about it so much of golf is really match play situations and Wolf Creek is a gem of a layout for such up and down cycles that happen with each shot there.

The real weakness of the course is the 18th -- it's possible to have extended the tee further back -- but it's really a light weight given the wild rides you've encountered up to that point.

I hope to see your comments on Shadow Creek when you do play it. How that layout gets the lofty status is amazing to me.

[Andy Troeger]

Part of the reason I've critiqued the tees on a couple holes is that length issue. They don't even have that 6900 yard set of markers out there--to rightfully discourage people from playing them. I asked the starter and he said its fine to play from those tees if one is a scratch player--just not many people do. The blue tees are only 6300 yards--probably the shortest course I've played all year especially with a par of 72.

I don't see myself getting to Shadow Creek for at least a couple of years.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy --

Be a bit more fair with the statement on no back tees available. Plenty of courses across the pond prevent players from taking on such courses from the tips. They are still thought of and rated from such markers.

The folks at WC are smart to discourage such play because most people could not handle the task -- but it should not prevent people from playing there and frankly if someone does ask and can demonstrate the capability they are allowed to do so from the different times I have been there. That doesn't happen across the pond so easily.

[mark chalfant]

Matt

Thanks for the very thorough analysis of Nevada golf.  Im hoping to play my first rounds in the state by fall 2009. I was wondering what you think of the Weiskopf course near Henderson (Raspberry Falls ? ).  Many friends have told me to play Coyote Moon near  Reno, but im not sure it's within the Silver State. Two of my friends (near scratch players) told me that Southern Highlands has a big helping of well designed holes. Conversly they felt  Cascata lacked " tangible design  strategy and had uninspiring greens"

Thanks for any info

[Matt_Ward]

Mark C:

Coyote Moon is actually located in CA -- just over the stateline with NV by a few miles. I have played it and would encourage people to check it out if they need an immediate golf options in the Sierras.

Regarding the Weiskopf course at The Falls at Lake Las Vegas Resort I've played the course and I see a number of items that are good -- mainly with the front nine because it's not adversely effected by the severe grade changes you have with the inner half. The 9th and 18th holes are both fairly pedestrian in character. Plenty of people have opined on the more hilly holes on the inner half - namely, the three holes of 12, 13 and 14. I liked the first of the trio but the other two were simply force fed into the terrain -- the 13th would play better if a drive-for-the-green option were remotely possible -- it's not. The downhill 14th is nothing more than a give away hole to the stronger player with little real risk involved when going for it.

The front side is not as severe but has the better lay of the land for more consistent holes and their overall presentation -- although the exit area from the 8th green which empties you halfway out on the 9th hole and then you must reverse yourself and head back in the direction from where tee shots are being hit is a forced situation that could have been rectified.

If one were to play Lake Las Vegas the Weiskopf layout would not be my first choice. Head to Reflection Bay or the private South Shore for a better overall time.

Mark, your friend are spot on with Southern Highlands -- offers a good combination between desert golf and classic design elements that should work well with traditionalists looking for something beyond the stark outlines you often get with desert golf.

Cascata is a treat for those who want gorgeous expansive views but I found the time there to be more about opulence -- how much man can spend to entertain man with all the other extras. The golf has its moments -- the uphill 2nd is quite demanding - but the totality of Cascata is another Rees Jones effort that I have seen countless times before. For those who have not had the pleasure then a round at Cascata may prove to be worth the fees charged.

[Mike Mosely]

Mike M:

Be happy to -- but I don't have as much depth of knowledge as I do with Nevada.

Can you tell me what you think of those two areas you mentioned?

Would you want such a listing to feature all courses or those that are only public ?

p.s. Mike, you said you are not a fan of Vegas courses. Fair enough. What have you played in Nevada and how long ago was it ? Thanks ...

PLayed a handful, much more in SC.  I'd have to think too much right now to cull all the titles I've played out there...about a dozen.

Do public in MB/HH, maybe top ten or 15.

[George Pazin]

George, one other question -- when you played Wolf Creek do you remember the tee box colors you played? Can you, if memory allows, remember if the direction of the wind was helping you on the 1st and 2nd holes. I can answer why that is important when you respond.

Thanks for inquiring about my questions regarding permitting.

I could be wrong, it was 7 years ago and my memory is colored by vertigo from the day , but my recollection is we played the tees in front of the tips (I'll look to see if I still have my yardage guide). We were told the tips were only open for tournaments. For the most part, these tees were manageable for me, with the exception of the par 3 8th (? - I think it was the 8th, the long par 3 to the almost invisible tiny little green by the creek). That shot was just too demanding for me, and there wasn't much bailout area that I can recall. I hooked one left of the green into no man's land, moved up a set and hit again somewhere up around the green, missed it by a foot or so.

I don't recall much wind at all that day. If it was there, it wasn't more than a club or so.

[Matt_Ward]

George P:

From what I have been told -- when Wolf Creek was built the environmental regulations were not as stiff as they have become since then. I was also told Nevada is still a good bit easier to develop when compared to sister states such as California and Arizona. I can't verify that but likely others with more expertise can weigh in.

***

Regarding the course questions --- I wonder how much the cart rides had on your overall assessment of the course? You did mention the 8th hole in your post -- if you had played the hole from 153 yards would it have made a difference in your mind concerning the playability of that hole?

[George Pazin]

Regarding the course questions --- I wonder how much the cart rides had on your overall assessment of the course? You did mention the 8th hole in your post -- if you had played the hole from 153 yards would it have made a difference in your mind concerning the playability of that hole?

Yes on the 8th hole - I found it much more playable with a short iron.

The cart rides influenced my experience, but I'm not a rater and don't really even have an internal rating systems, so I don't think they affected my opinion of the course that much.

To trot out the most worn out cliche of the last few years - it is what it is (the course, that is) (Hey, that almost sounds like a Dr Seuss line - is that good golf writing or bad?)

I can't comment on how WC's quirkiness compares to quirkiness overseas, as I haven't been overseas yet. I can say that what I would call a large portion of the quirk - hitting from unbelievably elevated tees - is not a form of quirk I like. To me, that is a skill that is 100% experience related, and for a part time golfer like yours truly, it's just not that much fun. Give me a handful of rounds and I'll hit fairways from those perches fine - actually, I did okay even that one round - I just don't think it's fun.

Maybe this will sum up my thoughts on WC: the only hole I really found compelling was the par 5 12th. I found the journey down the hill and then up the shallow grade back up to the green interesting. The par 4 14th was pretty fun, too. The rest was indeed quirky, but not what I personally would consider fun quirk.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Thanks for your candor on the 8th if played from the 153 yard boxes.

The usage of elevated tees is often done to provide the golfer with both added visibility and for the extra sense of power / control that comes from such perch-like tees. George, you are really the odd man out when you assess elevated tees - nearly all high handicap players that I have ever seen or talked to usually likes them for the elements I just mentioned.

I don't doubt there needs to be an adjustment made when playing from such areas because the effect on yardages / carries, etc, etc.

You made a case against Wolf Creek as not being "fun quirk" but I dare say that should you play across the pond you would be playing courses with quirk of a similar kind -- albeit without the cart rides. No doubt not every hole would feature tees planted high above the ground below but ones that would require a high degree of skill and be quick to punish those who do less than what is required.

One of my arguments about quirk is that American players give it broad license for their quick trips to such places -- when they are located in places like Ireland, Scotland, etc, etc. Places those same places here in the States and it's likely you and others would pan them as being out of touch.

A great example is both the Klondyke and Dell Holes at Lahinch. Take the Ireland tagline out of the address book and slap on one from Mesquite, NV and many people quickly leap from the pro to the con side.

One other thing -- "fun quirk" presumes some form of fairness and an avoidance of randomness. I see quirk as being a random situation which means no matter the skill factor employed there is a good chance for an odd bounce or some such other accident waiting to happen. I chuckle because people who play overseas readily accept such situations but when back in the States they see such similar situations as badly contrived.

Final note on Wolf Creek -- you lobbed the word "fun" in your assessment but at no time did you say anything at Wolf Creek was "unfair."

I have to add this -- Oakmont is not considered "fun" by many people -- including myself -- but I would not call the course "unfair." See what I mean ...

[Matt_Ward]

Someone sent me a post offline -- have to mention a worthy alternative to Wolf Creek when in Mesquite -- well, there's two worth a look for those who want something of comparable quality but not as intense or severe.

Try either ...

Falcon Ridge -- a much shorter and less ferocious course just minutes from Wolf Creek

or ...

Head to Oasis and play the Palmer layout there. One of the better AP designs I have played -- loved the canyon holes even they are quite tight. The perched tee box on #18 seemed really out of character.

Sad to say they altered the original uphill par-5 to be a par-4 now.

Of course -- for those wanting more golf options -- St. George is only up the road by 30 minutes and you do pass via I-15 through the Virgin River Gorge -- incredible scenery!

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