[Patrick_Mucci]

The thread on the 13th hole at Somerset Hills got me thinking about the design perameters or styles associated with various designers.

The 5th and 13th greens at Somerset Hills have radical internal features.

Features unlike any I've ever seen on AWT courses.

While # 5 green on Ridgewood's East nine has multi tiers, not unlike # 7 at Friar's Head, I can't recall any AWT greens that contain the radical features found on # 5 and # 13 at Somerset Hills.

Why did AWT introduce these radical, man made contours ?

Are there other AWT courses that have radical internal contouring in the greens ?

Are there courses/features that represent a radical departure from other architect's typical work ?

[TEPaul]

"Are there courses/features that represent a radical departure from other architect's typical work?"


Pat:

I guess I would have to say that the 13th green at Hidden Creek, and particularly the very large mound near the middle of it is sort of a radical departure from the type of green or green feature that Coore and Crenshaw generally do. The reason it's a departure just may be attributed to the fact that apparently they asked or let their foreman on that particular project design that hole and green.

Perhaps the same kind of thing was true at Somerset Hills on #5 and #13 but I doubt there would be any way at all of knowing that at this point.

It seems to me on a number of projects even these days there might tend to be a green or two that for whatever the reasons sort of gets "let out" to someone or maybe a group of people to conceive of other than just the architect. Generally, for one reason or another all the features and details of the original concept may not make it all the way through some kind of review and collaboration process but usually some vestiges or overall idea may survive which makes it seem unique compared to the rest.

[Ronald Montesano]

There is some of what you address at Niagara Falls Country Club in Lewiston, NY.  The course underwent extensive surgery at the hands of RTJ Sr. at one point and Cornish at another, so I'm not certain how much of the internal green movement can be attributed to AWT.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Are there courses/features that represent a radical departure from other architect's typical work?"

Pat:

I guess I would have to say that the 13th green at Hidden Creek, and particularly the very large mound near the middle of it is sort of a radical departure from the type of green or green feature that Coore and Crenshaw generally do.


I think you mean the 8th green at Hidden Creek.
The 13th green is fairly flat.
You must have teed off in a shotgun and gotten lost on the golf course.

The reason it's a departure just may be attributed to the fact that apparently they asked or let their foreman on that particular project design that hole and green.

At my architectural get together at Hidden Creek Bill Coore explained how one of his staff conceived of the hole, with the "Lion's Mouth" bunker in the fairway and buried "Elephant" in the green.

I'd call that field flexibility, only made possible by not having an overactive ego, and, the ability to see the enhancement to the hole brought about by suggestions from others, including field staff

Perhaps the same kind of thing was true at Somerset Hills on #5 and #13 but I doubt there would be any way at all of knowing that at this point.

It seems to me on a number of projects even these days there might tend to be a green or two that for whatever the reasons sort of gets "let out" to someone or maybe a group of people to conceive of other than just the architect. Generally, for one reason or another all the features and details of the original concept may not make it all the way through some kind of review and collaboration process but usually some vestiges or overall idea may survive which makes it seem unique compared to the rest.

The 13th green at Somerset Hills is extremely unique for AWT, but, somehow, it fits the hole.

I often wonder, if like Frank Sinatra when he was challenged to make a hit out of "Old MacDonald", did so, to quiet his critics and challengers.

Could it be that someone challenged AWT to produce something completely unusual and out of character for him, not once, but twice ?

Could it also be that Somerset Hills represented a laboratory of sorts, with the Racetrack becoming an integral feature in some of the holes, the use of Dolomites, a Redan and other unusual features ?

Interesting stuff.

You also have to wonder how many other clubs had unusual or pronounced features that were lost over the years, primarily due to their departure from "accepted" standards in architecture.

[jim_lewis]

It seems to be "common knowledge" that Tom Fazio does not build cross bunkers. However, there are three positioned diagonally to challenge the second shot on the par 5 third hole at Forest Creek South. Except for the very long and the fairly short hitters those bunkers present a challenge for most players. Clear them and you have a short wedge into the green. They are quite deep, so if in doubt, the smart play is a layup leaving a 7 or 8 iron uphill to a 3 tier green with a false front. Ran's profile of the course includes a photo which shows the middle and left bunkers.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

Can you describe these radical internal features? I believe I may have some qualifying greens for you, but I'm not sure.

[TEPaul]

"I think you mean the 8th green at Hidden Creek."


Patrick:

I do indeed mean the 8th green and not the 13th. Let that be notated and sent to the Library of Congress to be formally recorded for posterity because that is the first time I've been wrong and you've been right in over a decade!

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, do you know for sure that Tilly designed those greens? 

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