[Joe Bentham]

#3 at Old Mac might be my favorite hole on the resort, and I've only played half of it.  

[Mike Erdmann]

My picks...

#1 - Trails
#2 - Pacific
#3 - Pacific
#4 - Bandon
#5 - Trails
#6 - Pacific
#7 - Pacific
#8 - Pacific
#9 - Pacific
#10 - Pacific
#11 - Bandon
#12 - Trails
#13 - Pacific
#14 - Bandon
#15 - Trails
#16 - Pacific
#17 - Trails
#18 - Pacific

[Peter Pallotta]

Gents - a question for any and all of you who have put together your "best 18" :

Would you say that the course you have thus created is better than any of the courses as they actually exist?  Would you rather play your course than any of the three already there?

I'd be really interested in any additional comments along with a yes and no...

Thanks
Peter

(and my compliments by the way - I wish I knew any ONE course half as well as you know those three)

[Wyatt Halliday]

Peter,

To answer your question...no, I would not rather play my composite than the three as a whole. For all of the similarities at the resort, the courses each stand on their own as different creations for better or worse. I think that's what makes them so special in their own right. Each course has its own specific aesthetic that is easy to distinguish after just one play.

For a different slant on this topic, I will TRY and post a most to least favorite list:

Hole#
1.   Trails             Pacific          Dunes
2.   Pacific            Trails           Dunes
3.   Pacific            Trails           Dunes
4.   Pacific            Dunes         Trails
5.   Dunes            Trails          Pacific
6.   Pacific            Trails          Dunes
7.   Pacific            Dunes         Trails
8.   Trails             Dunes         Pacific (Save your breath, I've already been slammed for this)
9.   Pacific            Trails           Dunes
10. Pacific            Dunes         Trails
11. Pacific            Dunes         Trails
12. Dunes            Trails           Pacific
13. Pacific             Trails          Dunes
14. Pacific            Dunes          Trails
15. Trails             Dunes          Pacific
16. Dunes           Pacific           Trails
17. Trails             Pacific           Dunes
18. Pacific            Trails            Dunes

If you assign a point value to the above (1 for 1, 2 for 2, 3 for 3), than the results are as follows:

Pacific:   28
Trails:    38
Dunes:  41

[Jim Nugent]

And a question related (I think) to Peter's: is there an actual composite course you could put together at Bandon, that would surpass the existing courses?  I mean 18 holes you could walk, that fit together logically, one after the other, without bizarre journeys between green and tee.

[Kyle Henderson]

1 BT
2 PD
3 BT
4 PD
5 BD
6 PD
7 BD*
8 BT *
9 PD
10 PD*
11 PD
12 BT
13 PD
14 BD
15 BT
16 BD
17 BT
18 PD

*Old Mac contenders, based on brief tour (awesome greens!!!)

Sums
BD:4
PD:8
BT:6

[Michael Dugger]

#1 BD
#2 PD
#3 BT
#4 BT
#5 BT
#6 PD
#7 PD
#8 BT
#9 PD

#10 BD
#11 BT
#12 BD
#13 PD
#14 BT
#15 BT
#16 BD
#17 BD
#18 PD

5 Bandon Dunes
6 Pacific Dunes
7 Bandon Trails

A lot of close calls, #4, #5, #10 & #11.  I think the collection of 12th holes is by far the weakest of all.   

[Michael Dugger]

I am not going to take this on, because obviously I'm biased ... although John Kirk might have given more holes to Pacific Dunes than I would!

I was just amusing myself trying to think how many holes on Old Macdonald will eventually make the list.

Of the ten we've built so far, I would say five are strong contenders:  the Short 5th, the Ocean 7th, the Biarritz 8th, the Bottle 10th [which I think is the one sure-fire winner], and the Road hole 11th.

Of the eight hole left, I think every one of them might contend ... well, maybe not the Leven 13th, which wouldn't compete for raw scenery with the 13th at Pacific Dunes ... but it might wind up being the coolest short par-4 on the property.  Of course, that's just in my brain right now, we'll have to see how it works out.

Tom,

I'm surprised you do not consider the 3rd (Sahara) in this discussion.  I thought that hole appeared to hold the a lot of potential. 

[Jason Topp]

I did this and it was funny to see how the pars of the holes came out - par 69 with 9's of 37 and 32.



Hole #1:  Pacific Dunes –4
Hole #2: Pacific Dunes – 4
Hole #3: Bandon Trails— 5 
Hole #4: Bandon Dunes— 4
Hole #5: Bandon Trails--  3
Hole #6: Bandon Trails – 4
Hole #7: Pacific -4
Hole #8: Bandon Trails4
Hole #9: Bandon Trails – 5

Hole #10: Pacific - 3
Hole #11: Pac Dunes - 3
Hole #12:  Trails - 3
Hole #13: Pac Dunes - 4
Hole #14: Bandon Dunes - 4
Hole #15: Bandon Dunes - 3
Hole #16: Bandon Dunes - 4
Hole #17: Bandon Trails - 3
Hole #18: Pac Dunes-5

I do not think that my composite course would be as good as any of the individual courses because my course would have less variety and I prefer a course to have a flow, like movements in a piece of music.  This would be more like a K-Tel greatest hits of a good year.

I also do not think a tally of the courses chosen reflect my preferences for the courses over-all that well.  More of my holes came from Trails and Pacific Dunes.  I literally would be equally happy playing any of the three courses. 

[JohnV]

#1 - Bandon Dunes
#2 - Pacific Dunes
#3 - Pacific Dunes
#4 - Bandon Trails
#5 - Bandon Trails
#6 - Pacific Dunes
#7 - Bandon Dunes
#8 - Bandon Trails
#9 - Pacific Dunes
#10 - Bandon Dunes
#11 - Pacific Dunes
#12 - Bandon Dunes
#13 - Pacific Dunes
#14 - Bandon Dunes
#15 - Bandon Trails
#16 - Bandon Dunes
#17 - Bandon Trails
#18 - Pacific Dunes

Bandon Dunes - 6
Pacific Dunes - 7
Bandon Trails - 5

If I rate them 1-2-3 as Wyatt did, the number get interesting as Bandon Trails has only 1 hole I'd rate third (#14), while Bandon Dunes only had one hole I'd rate second (#5).  Totals would be Bandon Trails - 32, Pacific Dunes - 35, Bandon Dunes - 41.

I remember speaking with someone and saying that I thought I'd like Trails slightly better than Pacific overall without getting analytical.  Now that I have, I came out with the same result.

[Tim Bert]

I have it roughly 10-4-4 in favor of Pacific Dunes.  It appears I'm biased...

I think #9 surpasses #12 as the worst option amongst the thre courses.  I choose #9 BD for the selfish reason of my eagle.  Neither of the other two do enough for me to overcome that personal moment.

I saw that I said 10-4-4 without listing the holes in November, so I thought I'd take a crack at this today to see if I get the same result (I've done this so many times in various forms and the answer changes day-to-day, though Pacific Dunes always ends up with the most holes.)

#1 - Trails
#2 - Pacific
#3 - Pacific
#4 - Pacific
#5 - Pacific
#6 - Pacific
#7 - Pacific
#8 - Pacific
#9 - Bandon
#10 - Pacific
#11 - Pacific
#12 - Bandon
#13 - Pacific
#14 - Trails
#15 - Trails
#16 - Bandon
#17 - Pacific
#18 - Trails

Pacific 11, Trails 4, Bandon 3

The funny thing is that I generally think I like the back nine at Pacific Dunes better than the front.  The individual tally just doesn't add up that way.

Of the ones I didn't pick Pacific, I could easily be swayed on 4 of them.  Put me in the John Kirk landslide camp.  Rest assured, I don't mean that to take anything away from the other courses, which I think are both really good.

[Ian_L]

Random thought: does Bandon Dunes get knocked down more because of its lack of shaping?  While Pacific and Trails have beautifully sculpted bunkers, Bandon's are quite simple.  I was thinking about hole #11, for example, which has several strategic options off the tee but doesn't look all that great compared to Trails' and Pacific's inland holes.

[Kyle Henderson]

Random thought: does Bandon Dunes get knocked down more because of its lack of shaping?  While Pacific and Trails have beautifully sculpted bunkers, Bandon's are quite simple.  I was thinking about hole #11, for example, which has several strategic options off the tee but doesn't look all that great compared to Trails' and Pacific's inland holes.

In many ways, BD appears more shaped IMHO. While the rivetted bunkers are less complex than some of the "erosion style" bunkers found on the sibling courses, they still require a lot of earthwork. The third green has an articficially regular wave pattern around it. The 4th, 6th, 11th, 12 and 15th greens are man-made plateaus that really dont tie in with their surroundings.

At Old Mac, there as a few bunkers that have almost no depth, just sandy shapes dut out of the grass. The winds will deepen these bunkers as they see fit. They required very little shaping.

My least favorite bunker (aesthetically speaking) at Old Mac is the Hell bunker on #6 which sports railroad ties. I'm told similar bunkers will be included in the final 8 holes.

[Matt MacIver]

I did a similar rating a while ago using the 4 -Star ranking system, thinking it was more fair way.  More points are better, and I came up with 53 PD, 53 BT and 49 BD.  Directionally that's exactly where I would have wanted them, though I could change my mind daily. 

I further set out separate my 4-Star system to only get a point for a) one point for a great driving hole; b) one point for a great 2nd / 3rd shot; c) one point for the green; d) one point for other.  But this system had flaws too, and I ran out of time.....

[Jim Nugent]

I asked this earlier and didn't get an answer (no interest?).  Are there any real composite courses you could put together at Bandon, that make sense routing-wise, and also could be outstanding courses?  Could you improve any of the existing courses that way?

[Ian_L]

Kyle, I didn't phrase my comment correctly.  What I meant was that the shaping is not quite as good looking as Pacific and Trails' are.   I did not mean to say Bandon is a more natural course, rather that the quality of the shaping is below its peers, which might get the course knocked down.

I asked this earlier and didn't get an answer (no interest?).  Are there any real composite courses you could put together at Bandon, that make sense routing-wise, and also could be outstanding courses?  Could you improve any of the existing courses that way?

Bandon Trails would be out of the question, but I could see the possibility of skipping from PD #7 to BD #8, then playing BD 4, 5, 7, and continuing on PD #8.  Or, play BD 8, 4, 5, 6, and continue on PD #11.  I don't really care to try to complete the routing, but it might be possible.  I'm not qualified to comment on whether such a composite would make a better course.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle, I didn't phrase my comment correctly.  What I meant was that the shaping is not quite as good looking as Pacific and Trails' are.   I did not mean to say Bandon is a more natural course, rather that the quality of the shaping is below its peers, which might get the course knocked down.

It certainly knocks it down a bit in my eyes, but I believe BD is still ranked ahead of BT in most of the major golf magazines.




[/quote]

[Matt_Ward]

Here's my take ...

In order of preference -- five points (5) per first place, three (3) for second and one (1) for third.

ONE OTHER NOTE OF DIFFERENCE -- I MADE IT A POINT TO MAKE SURE TMY ALL-18 FIRST CHOICES COMES OUT TO A PAR-71 COURSE.

1st hole                        10th hole
BT                                    BT             
BD                                   PD
PD                                   BD

2nd hole                        11th hole
PD                                    BD                             
BD                                    BT
BT                                     PD

3rd hole                         12th hole
PD                                   BT
BD                                   PD
BT                                   BD

4th hole                         13th hole
BD                                  PD
PD                                  BT
BT                                   BD

5th hole                         14th hole
BT                                   BT
BD                                  BD
PD                                  PD

6th hole                         15th hole
BD                                   BD
PD                                   BT
BT                                    PD

7th hole                         16th hole
PD                                  PD
BT                                   BT
BD                                  BD

8th hole                          17th hole
PD                                   PD
BT                                    BT
BD                                    BD

9th hole                          18th hole
BT                                    PD
PD                                   BT
BD                                   BD

Total Points Out ...           Total Points In ...

PD = 31                           PD = 29
BT = 25                           BT = 33
BD = 25                           BD = 19

TOTAL OVERALL POINTS ...

PD = 31 + 29 = 60
BT  = 25 + 33 = 58
BD = 25 + 19 = 44

First Place Votes Per Hole Selection ...

PD = 8
BT = 6
BD = 4

[Eric Olsen]

1 BT PD BD
2 PD BD BT
3 PD BD BT
4 BD PD BT
5 BD BT PD
6 PD BT BD
7 PD BD BT
8 PD BT BD
9 PD BD BT
10 BD PD BT
11 PD BD BT
12 BD PD BT
13 PD BT BD
14 PD BD BT
15 BT BD PD
16 BD PD BT
17 PD BT BD
18 PD BD BT

PD:  11 first place, 5 second, 2 third
BD:   5 first, 8 second, 5 third
BT:   2 first, 5 second, 11 third

Par 70:  37-33

[Mark Saltzman]

Using Matt Ward's scoring system, but adding in 0 points for 4th...

1: BT, PD, OM, BD
2: OM, PD, BD, BT
3: OM, BD, PD, BT
4: BD, PD, OM, BT
5: OM, BD, BT, PD
6: PD, OM, BD, BT (wow, what a collection of holes...)
7: BT, BD, OM, PD
8: BT, OM, PD, BD
9: PD, OM, BT, BD

Total Points Out. BD = 16, BT = 17, OM = 27, PD = 21

10: OM, BD, BT, PD (wow)
11: PD, BT, OM, BD
12: BT, BD, PD, OM
13: BT, OM, PD, BD
14: BT, PD, BD, OM
15: PD, BD, OM, BT
16: BD, OM, PD, BT
17: PD, OM, BT, BD
18: OM, PD, BT, BD

Total Points In. BD = 15, BT = 21, OM = 21, PD = 24

Total Points:
1) OM = 48 w/5 x first place
2) PD = 45 w/5 x first place
3) BT = 38 w/6 x first place
4) BD = 31 w/2 x first place.

OK, that surprised me  

[Brad Isaacs]

So of all the holes on all the courses, hole 18 is the weakest hole at the resort??? Bb

[Michael George]

Here are my rankings:

1: BT, OM, PD, BD
2: PD, BT, OM, BD
3: OM, PD, BD, BT
4: PD, BD, OM, BT
5: BD, OM, BT, PD
6: BD & PD (tie), BT, OM  
7: OM, PD, BD, BT
8: BT, OM, PD, BD
9: PD, BT, OM, BD

Total Points Out. PD - 27, OM - 22, BT - 18, BD - 14

10: PD, OM & BT (tie), BD
11: BT & PD (tie), BD, OM
12: BD, BT, PD, OM
13: PD, BT, OM, BD
14: BT, OM & BD (tie), PD
15: OM, BT & BD (tie), PD
16: BD, OM, PD, BT
17: BT & BD & PD (3 way tie), OM
18: OM, PD, BD, BT

Total Points In.  BT - 22, PD - 22, BD - 19, OM - 18

Total Points:
1) PD = 49
2) BT = 40 (wins tie breaker with OM for more 1st place votes)
3) OM = 40
4) BD = 33


The exercise worked for me as this is exactly how I rank the golf courses......but I still believe that each course provides a totally different experience and each could be preferred by different players.  For instance, I think:  (a) PD may be the best test, most scenic and did great job with inland holes, BT may be the best combo of playability and test, OM is the most fun, and BD is the most playable.

[Mac Plumart]

1   Bandon Dunes
2   Bandon Trails
3   Bandon Trails
4   Bandon Dunes
5   Bandon Trails
6   Pacific Dunes
7   Old Mac
8   Pacific Dunes
9   Bandon Trails
10   Old Mac
11   Old Mac
12   Old Mac
13   Pacific Dunes
14   Pacific Dunes
15   Old Mac
16   Bandon Dunes
17   Old Mac
18   Old Mac


I've got Old Mac winning 7 holes;

and Pacific and Trails winning 4;

and Bandon winning 3.

I think the best collection of holes at the resort might be the set of 17th holes.  All really good.  IMO.

[Jeff Tang]

That was fun.  My favorite holes by course are below.  Interesting that I don't have any par 5's listed.  Guess I really like the par 4's at the resort, and some of the 3's are my favorite 3's anywhere.  Works out to be a par 67.

Going into the exercise I would rank my favorite courses at the resort in order as PD, BD, OM, BT.  I ended up with 7 fav's on PD, 5 on BD, 4 on OM, and 2 on BT so that holds to form.

Tough Calls -

For me the 9th hole was difficult as none of the 9th holes for me stand out.  I went with PD not necessarily because I love it but because the others I'm not crazy about.  It was between BT and PD on that one.

The 13th was also difficult because I really like the 13th at BT.  But, how can I not pick the 13th at PD.

Picking between the 18th at PD and OM was tough as well, really love both of those holes but the tee shot on OM is strategic and the second shot a lot of fun hitting into that bowl so it gets the nod.

Also interesting that I picked holes 15, 16, and 17 all from BD, a strong finish although a bit of a let down with the 18th there.

1 BT
2 PD
3 OM
4 PD
5 BD
6 PD
7 OM
8 OM
9 PD
10 PD
11 PD
12 BD
13 PD
14 BT
15 BD
16 BD
17 BD
18 OM

[Mark Saltzman]

What makes 4 and 13 at Pacific Dunes great?

Would 4 be a more interesting hole with the left side fairway  bunkers removed?

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