[Garland Bayley]

Matt's overselling Black Mesa as usual.

There is little chance that it will become anything resembling Bandon.

They are already behind by having started with a cartball course.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Ignorance must be bliss in your world.

Have you seen the site for the 2nd coursr?

I have.

It's quite impresive.

Just because a course has carts and allows those to ride is not an indictment on the course.

Walking is permitted and many do it.

When you say there is "little chance" you must be speaking about your lack of understanding.

[Thomas Patterson]

I was REALLY impressed with BM and I would travel there to play it multiple times, just by itself.....add in a Tom D. design, on the landscape that is there and it's just icing on an otherwise very tasty cake!

[Craig Van Egmond]

A big plus to Black Mesa in my book is that it is still affordable for us mere mortals!   

I sure hope the 2nd course gets built.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I played BM a couple years back, as well as a local muni (can't remember name) ans was really impressed.  I think, given favorable economic times, there's no reason why this area can't be a Bandon-esque typs destination - especially if/when the Doak course gets built. In fact, the group that I travel with would jump at the opportunity to put NM in the rotation.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

Ignorance must be bliss in your world.

Have you seen the site for the 2nd coursr?

I have.

It's quite impresive.

Just because a course has carts and allows those to ride is not an indictment on the course.

Walking is permitted and many do it.

When you say there is "little chance" you must be speaking about your lack of understanding.

Matt,

Don't you get tired of shouting down people that disagree with you.

Ignorance and understanding have nothing to do with it, unless of course you think you are an omniscient god. Perhaps you don't understand YaBB God. That simply means you run off at the mouth too much. It grants you no special powers to know the future. My prediction of the future is that even with a Doak course at Black Mesa, it will never approximate Bandon. That is my best guess of the future based on my experience at Black Mesa. I won't go back there to play the Spann course. I feel I made a mistake going there in the first place due to the hype on this website.

One piece of my prediction is based on the fact that most every golfer can go to Bandon and enjoy his game there. That is not true for Black Mesa with all of its forced carries and endless walking circuitous paths around terrain they were unwilling to adapt to the walker. Just because they allow walking, and some people do it, does not mean it is a walking course. Since they adapt the terrain for carts and not walking, it is clearly a cartball course. That is a present day fact that you seem to be ignorant of.

[Alex Miller]

Don't you get tired of shouting down people that disagree with you.

So what are you doing Garland? 

[Garland Bayley]

Don't you get tired of shouting down people that disagree with you.

So what are you doing Garland? 

Educating! 

[Jerry Kluger]

I have not been to Black Mesa but there is a cost factor which weighs in its favor as well as location.  Bandon is fantastic but it has two things going against it: 1. remote location 2. cost.  There are plenty of gcaf nuts like us who will make the time to go to Bandon and will perhaps forgo other golfing opportunities to save money in order to pay for Bandon.  But I think the overall golfing population would not consider Bandon and would instead look at Myrtle Beach or RTJ Trail. 

[Bill_McBride]

I have not been to Black Mesa but there is a cost factor which weighs in its favor as well as location.  Bandon is fantastic but it has two things going against it: 1. remote location 2. cost.  There are plenty of gcaf nuts like us who will make the time to go to Bandon and will perhaps forgo other golfing opportunities to save money in order to pay for Bandon.  But I think the overall golfing population would not consider Bandon and would instead look at Myrtle Beach or RTJ Trail. 

Jerry, trust me, there are no RTJ Trail courses and little at Myrtle Beach (Stranz pair?) that can hold a candle to Black Mesa.

Fly into ABQ and 90 minutes later you're on the first tee.  That night you're pounding the margaritas and enchiladas at the Pink Adobe!   

[Jerry Kluger]

Bill: I agree with you but one course is hard to attract golfers on a golf getaway.  Bandon or Kohler are great but expensive so they are looking at the RTJ Trail or Myrtle Beach.  I have no doubt that BM offers better golf than RTJ or MB but it needs a second course so guys will stay for a few days and add to the local economy. 

[Bill_McBride]

Bill: I agree with you but one course is hard to attract golfers on a golf getaway.  Bandon or Kohler are great but expensive so they are looking at the RTJ Trail or Myrtle Beach.  I have no doubt that BM offers better golf than RTJ or MB but it needs a second course so guys will stay for a few days and add to the local economy. 

That's what the thesis was:  build the second (Doak) course and Black Mesa will be highly competitive.

And Santa Fe is a much better non-golf town than either Bandon or Myrtle Beach    or anywhere in Alabama!

[Garland Bayley]

Bill: I agree with you but one course is hard to attract golfers on a golf getaway.  Bandon or Kohler are great but expensive so they are looking at the RTJ Trail or Myrtle Beach.  I have no doubt that BM offers better golf than RTJ or MB but it needs a second course so guys will stay for a few days and add to the local economy. 

That's what the thesis was:  build the second (Doak) course and Black Mesa will be highly competitive.

And Santa Fe is a much better non-golf town than either Bandon or Myrtle Beach    or anywhere in Alabama!

I've got news for you people. Black Mesa is not in Santa Fe!

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Education?

OK --

My father used to say you can work with ignorance -- you just can't help stupidity.

You said Black Mesa is no Bandon. The reality is that Bandon was not truly special until Pac Dunes came along. The same can be said for the facility just outside Santa Fe if/when a Doak course is created.

You fail to really comprehend just how good Black Mesa is right now. The overwhelming number of people who have ever responded to when BM has been the topic has been nothing less glowing. Maybe you need to have the light bulb go off with you.

"Run with the mouth." Hilarious stuff -- the pot calling the kettle black. You have a great way to make permanent statements -- that Black Mesa can never be in the same league with Bandon. Happy to know, as I'm sure the mgmt is that you won't be going back there again. The spot ont he tee sheet you formaslly occupied is so quickly provided to others who relish what the course provides.

You're right Garland -- Black Mesa doesn't cater to the 25+ handicap set -- the kind who hit more ground balls and spray to the next state. Guess what? Neither does Pine Valley or a host of other top tier layouts.

Again, you throw forward all the old as the hills erroneous statements -- what forced carries specifically are you talking about. If people with little or no game play tees they should not be playing then the fault rests with them -- not the course. The walking at BM is no more demanding than what one does with bethpage State Park's black Course.

Truly, wake up and smell the coffee -- it's been on the table for quite some time.


p.s. Black Mesa is about 20 miles northwest of Santa Fe -- guess what Winged Foot is not in NYC too. Big ffreaking deal.

[George Pazin]

You're right Garland -- Black Mesa doesn't cater to the 25+ handicap set -- the kind who hit more ground balls and spray to the next state. Guess what? Neither does Pine Valley or a host of other top tier layouts.

Matt, I love when you make statements like this, it shows you only pay lip service when you say you observe how other "lesser" golfers handle a golf course.

You can watch, but you ain't payin' attention...

[Bill_McBride]

Bill: I agree with you but one course is hard to attract golfers on a golf getaway.  Bandon or Kohler are great but expensive so they are looking at the RTJ Trail or Myrtle Beach.  I have no doubt that BM offers better golf than RTJ or MB but it needs a second course so guys will stay for a few days and add to the local economy. 

That's what the thesis was:  build the second (Doak) course and Black Mesa will be highly competitive.

And Santa Fe is a much better non-golf town than either Bandon or Myrtle Beach    or anywhere in Alabama!

I've got news for you people. Black Mesa is not in Santa Fe!

Dear Snarkmeister,

Have you been there?

I guess you could say it's in Espanola.  It's 23 miles from central Santa Fe.

That's like saying Rustic Canyon isn't in Los Angeles, or one you'll understand, Wine Valley isn't in Walla Walla.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Thanks for enlightening the folks here on directions and location.


George:

That is so funny.

You genuflect on Oakmont which is as penal as can be -- more so than Black Mesa. Oakmont doesn't provide any relief -- extracts the slightest of miscues and beats up on the very "golfers" you champion.

George, let me break the news to you -- if someone is playing to a 25+ handicap and then bitches and moans about tee boxes that they HAVE NO STANDING on playing then I don't feel a freakin thing. How bout either practice more or move up a few tee boxes?

[Garland Bayley]

Bill: I agree with you but one course is hard to attract golfers on a golf getaway.  Bandon or Kohler are great but expensive so they are looking at the RTJ Trail or Myrtle Beach.  I have no doubt that BM offers better golf than RTJ or MB but it needs a second course so guys will stay for a few days and add to the local economy. 

That's what the thesis was:  build the second (Doak) course and Black Mesa will be highly competitive.

And Santa Fe is a much better non-golf town than either Bandon or Myrtle Beach    or anywhere in Alabama!

I've got news for you people. Black Mesa is not in Santa Fe!

Dear Snarkmeister,

Have you been there?

I guess you could say it's in Espanola.  It's 23 miles from central Santa Fe.

That's like saying Rustic Canyon isn't in Los Angeles, or one you'll understand, Wine Valley isn't in Walla Walla.

The comparison has been Bandon to Black Mesa. Where are you going to stay at Black Mesa and where are you going to do a relaxing round at the par 3 course at Black Mesa? Are you going to drive into Sante Fe for dinner and then back to the course to use the practice area? Are you going to simply spend your time at the resort without renting a car?

Black Mesa well never be a Bandon.
Bill, I think even you will agree with that unless you have been sipping some serious Kool-aid from Matt.

[Garland Bayley]

...
You said Black Mesa is no Bandon. The reality is that Bandon was not truly special until Pac Dunes came along. The same can be said for the facility just outside Santa Fe if/when a Doak course is created.
...

Come on Matt. Pac Dunes was possible, because Bandon was truly special. What Kool-aid have you been drinking.

[Garland Bayley]

Black Mesa vs Bandon

Talk to the retail golfer in Albuquerque that has been to Black Mesa, and he will tell you he doesn't have to go back, because he has Paa-Ko Ridge local. Talk to the retail golfer in Portland when Bandon started, and he had to get back to play Bandon Dunes again.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Bandon is a fine course but as we now know -- what followed has only helped keep the original course in the picture.

Black Mesa IS  a superb layout -- not withstanding your self-imposed ignorance.
Add a Doak layout to the mix with Santa Fe so close by and the rest speaks for itself.

Bill McBride said it so well. End of story ...

p.s. If / when a 2nd course is built the on-site housing elements and rentals would also be included.

No different than when Bandon exploded as momentum got going full tilt.

p.s. Ask most people here on this site and BM beats Paa-Ko hands down.

[Garland Bayley]

...
p.s. Ask most people here on this site and BM beats Paa-Ko hands down.

I'm not talking about the people on this site. I am talking about the average retail golfer that doesn't know his Tom Doak from his Robert Trent Jones.

Both places would go bankrupt if they could only draw on golfers from this site.

[Matt MacIver]

I think BM is better than BD.

I hope Tom's BM#2 is better than PD - but that's a REALLY tall order.

Santa Fe is great and is a better couples destination than Bandon (and way cheaper than Pebble). The new BM complex will appeal to a group of golfers - but IMVHO it won't take huge share from those named above, or WS, unless the do something radically different or unique. Maybe (hopefully!) two quality course at a fair price near a great tourist city with year-round great (true?) course conditions will be enough.

PS - I bet most retail golfers, and raters, like Paa-Ko better than BM. 

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
My interpretation of the Bandon comparison is NOT that anyone is suggesting that Black Mesa is trying to be Bandon in all respects, but that with a second strong course it could become a great multi-course golf destination. It has some significant advantages over Bandon in cost and ability to get there from most major population centers and some significant hurdles in becoming that place that others are imagining. However, I'll concede that its possible if the second course gets built that the place could really take off and I certainly hope it does since I'm only 90 minutes away.

I played the course recently with a guy that's had two major back surgeries, can't fly the ball more than about 150, and plays golf a few times a year. He did not have a problem from the blue tees at 6600 yards reaching the fairways, managed to get around without losing more than a few balls, and had a great time and is excited about taking other people back. My personal opinion is that Paa-Ko Ridge is far more penal than Black Mesa. You make a fair point that Black Mesa isn't a great course to walk.

And I'll bet that the cost at Bandon will keep more golfers from enjoying that experience than the walkability of Black Mesa.


All,
Black Mesa is far closer to Santa Fe than Rustic Canyon is to Los Angeles! Its a pretty 20 minute drive--just don't speed!

[Steve Lang]

And I'll bet that the cost at Bandon will keep more golfers from enjoying that experience than the walkability of Black Mesa.

BINGO!

I think Mike Keiser's "Retail Golfer" could easily enjoy two trips to NM for the price of one to Bandon.   I loved Bandon, but like my trip to the UK, i just ignored the costs and did as much as i could in the time available.. (even going to play Chambers Bay) I can do that, but i don't like to make a habit out of it.

And really, I'd much rather drive the 20 minutes to and from Santa Fe, enjoy its many offerings and take the back road to PKR and hop on UNM Championship course either coming or going from the airport on a long weekend than make the trek again to Bandon and esentially be held hostage by the connections getting there, even with its great golf.
 

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