[Jay Flemma]

Jeff and TEP:

it's such a fine line between what could have survived and what could have been thrown out with the trash 80 years ago, but it stands to reason that, somewhere, Travis would have kept a note or a ledger with those identities written down. 

Tom, I remember you saying that some people kept their records in their head, and some people do that.  What kind of man was Travis in that regard?  Was he a pack-rat who kept everything in neat piles?  Or was he a "right-brainer" who could just handle all his business dealings in his head?  Who else would know that, maybe Mucci?

[RJ_Daley]

Its amazing what kind of stuff is still around, although, never when you need it!

In that regard, I'll ask my wife if she has come across anything!  She is the biggest garage saler, and keeper of "stuff' (useless stuff I might add) of anyone I know.  Hell the damn receipts may be in some box in my very basement as we speak! 

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Brother William!  I bet they're in the finis africae!

So that's what Jorge and William were after!  Somebody go kick Malachai's heiney and get the abbot to open it up.

[Bradley Anderson]

Could someone explain why they used pen names?

Many years ago I wrote a few articles for a golf management magazine under the pen name Carl Spagler, called: The News From Featherbed Bent Country Club. I basically would try to put myself in the mindset of the Bill Murray character in Caddyshack. It was always a lot fun to go to meetings and hear people talk about the idiotic stuff I had written, not knowing that it was me. Actually I wasn't that far out of character. 

[TEPaul]

"Who else would know that, maybe Mucci?"

Jay:

I would think the best person to ask would be KevinM, Bob Labbance's partner. After-all they wrote the only biography on Travis I'm aware of. I just saw him last Monday but I don't believe I'd thought of this to ask him at the time. That kind of thing was not in their book though.

[Jay Flemma]

TEP->  That's a thought.  Also, they must have gotten their info from some living relatives of Travis.

Where are artifacts from the American Golfer kept?  Does the USGA have some?

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

There were a lot of different reasons writers used pen names and pseudonyms. If you Google "pen names" and "pseudonyms" it explains most of the reasons.

[TEPaul]

"Where are artifacts from the American Golfer kept?  Does the USGA have some?"

Jay:

I am no expert on Travis. If there was one it was definitely Bob Labbance. Some have thought that "Far and Sure" was Travis or mostly Travis but I just can't see how Travis could've written the really detailed copy that Far and Sure did of the Eastern Pennsylvania region as consistently as that pen name did so often in 1911 and 1912. Travis was in New York. Tillinghast was in Philadelphia. If Tillinghast never did write any of the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" in American Golfer in 1911 and 1912 it must have been someone other than Travis and none of us here can see who else it could remotely be at that time other than Tillinghast.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

In this thread you stated that there were a couple of instances in which Tillie admitted he was the writer behind the pen name "Hazard", and that the April 1918 American Golfer column in which he reports that "Duffer" was B.C. Tillinghast, the gentleman who had contributed to the column, was his (A.W. Tillinghast's) father, is one of those instances.

I'm wondering what other "Hazard" articles you think that pen name writer admitted he was A.W. Tillinghast because I do not think Tillie did admit in that April 1918 "Hazard" article that he was A.W. Tillinghast, at least certainly not to readers who had no idea who B.C. Tillinghast was or that his son was a golf course architect. In a number of articles Tillie, as the pen name writer "Hazard" or perhaps even "Far and Sure", did occasionally refer to A.W. Tillinghast, perhaps as a golfer or even a golf architect but he always did so in the third person (apparently consciously disassociating Tillinghast from the pen name writer). That is essentially the most common trick of a pen name writer if he ever writes about or refers to himself. If he did not want readers who did not know him to suspect who he really was that is what he would continue to do. If he wanted readers who did not know him to understand who he really was he would've simply referred to himself in his article in the first person but he did not do that in that April 1918 “Hazard” article.
 Again, to understand this type of literary trick from the point of view of the pen name writer we need to look at the issue of the reader who did not suspect who he was and not from our perspective who’re trying to investigate who he may’ve been.

Obviously, there is loads of transparency in this kind of literary trick or game because we must understand that anyone Tillie knew or knew him or who he ever actually interviewed or questioned for information under his own name or in person (this is why "first hand" (being present at an event) is so important for us to now know if we are investigating whether he could've written under the pen name "Far and Sure" too) were of course going to know his identity, and particularly when they saw the subject he was interviewing and writing about in print.

To me this is just an example of some of the nuances of some of us today appreciating the way things actually worked at the time and in a contemporaneous way when we view them now historically.

Tillie mentioned in one article (or one of the pen names did) that there were probably about 5,000 golfers in Philadelphia at a particular time. By that he seemed to suggest that may be the expected readership of these kinds of articles or at least those that had some interest in the subject. How many of them knew Tillie personally, were interviewed by him under his own name at any point, and therefore had to know the identity behind the pen name? It's impossible to put a number on that question but I would have to say it may've been less than 10% of them and it seems to me that was the trick of pen name writing and perhaps its very point.

Peter Pallota raised an interesting question and point earlier in this thread that the world of golf back then was pretty small compared to today so who really did these pen name writers think they were tricking "identity-wise" with this literary pseudonym game, and secondly, why did they and their magazines even bother?

I submit to write in the first person would only help to make both the writer and those he ever interviewed and who knew him look slightly self-serving if the general readership totally understood how they well they knew each other or even that they knew each other at all.

Perhaps I should’ve put this post on the pen name thread because even if I may be wrong about this it seems to me this type of literary pseudonym game basically helps to make the interest in this kind of subject look bigger, at least perceptively than it really was or may’ve been and clearly that is going to play right into the hands of what a magazine such as American Golfer is basically trying to accomplish! 

[BCrosby]

Does anyone know who the "Colonel" and the "Judge" might have been who covered the South?

A couple of intriguing facts are that Bobby Jones' father was call "Colonel" and the name of Jones' beloved dog was "Judge".

Logically O.B. Keeler would be the best guess. But an interesting coincidence with the pen names.   

Bob

 

[TEPaul]

Bob:

If those two pen names used in American Golfer in the "Southern Section" were NOT taken from Jones' father's nickname and Jones' beloved dog's name that really would be SOME coincidence!! Of course who wrote under those pen names is another question.

The thing I'm getting more and more interested in is if pen name writers used more than one pen name from time to time and particularly WHY and if writers were sometimes interchangeable for convenience.

In that vein I really am wondering after Phil Young said recently that B.C. Tillinghast was "Duffer" and that he also could've been "Far and Sure", then why is it that Phil is so resistant to the fact that Tillie (A.W. Tillinghast) could have used two pen names (Hazard and Far and Sure)?

If it is only for the reason that Phil THINKS Tillie was too busy with other things in 1911 and 1912 to have written under Far and Sure (when Hazard was not being used), then I think Phil should at least consider rethinking his intrepretation that Tillie was too busy during those two years to have also used Far and Sure. Did Tillie ever actually say or indicate, at any time, that he was too busy during those two years to do that? Not that I'm aware of. As far as I can tell, at this point, that is merely Phil's interpretation.

[TEPaul]

Yesterday, we may've found another person who might fit the bill as the identity behind "Far and Sure" but as of now, at least in my opinion, for a few reasons he just does not exactly fit the bill as well as Tillie does.

[Phil_the_Author]

A few quick thoughts as I am really under teh weather and even typing is a bit much...

The Whiffensnoozer & Whiffenpoof & even a few others were cartoon charcters that Tilly made up stories about for entertaining his grandchildren.

Though it hasn't been mentioned, Tilly took on three nicknames for himself that he preferred his friends call him by. In his late teens to early twenties it was Bertie, shortened from his first name Albert. After this, and no one knows why, he took on the first of two similar nicknames. The first is Tillie, ending in "ie." This didn't seem to last all that long and he would almost exclusively use the the nickname Tilly, ending in "y" for the rest of his life. That is why you will never see me referring to him as Tillie but as TILLY. It is the smallest of points but one that I have been questioned about.

Yes, Tom, There were at least two occasions that I can think of off-hand, though I'll have to look up the exact references for you, where he gave up writing for a magazine or newspaper for the single reason that he was too busy with his design work. One of these was the Philadelphia Record and the other was the American Golfer.

Also, I never made the claim that B.C. Tillinghast was F&S; in fact in my first posts, as well as subsequent ones, clearly stated that I didn't think he was. The reason for mentioning him as a possibility is because part of the argument by some on here that F&S must have been Tilly was that they couldn't think of anyone else with his writing experience, playing experience ,social connections, had access to Tilly's photos, may have been present during some of the matches he played in and had the influence in the game locally and nationally from the Philly area as he did. Clearly B.C. did and, in fact, he wrote for the AG. That he isn't doesn't prove anything about the claim of Tilly being F&S, but rather clearly shows that there were others who fit this bill.

Here's another name for you as a possibility... Cameron Buxton. He also most likely is not the one. The point is that there are a number from that time who do qualify and do meet the clues given... it's just that he hasn't been identified as of yet.

Back to coughing my lungs out...

Finally, as I am running on empty here,   

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Hope you're feeling better soon.   

Mike

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Thanks for the nice thought... Yet hacking away can do some good at times, for a person came to mind that needs considering in this discussion for the very reason that he DIDN'T use a psudonym, wrote a regular column for the American Golfer from Jan. 199 through 1912 in which he actually gave swing advice and then wrote for GOLF magazine beginning in 1913 for a number of years.

The entire time he remained a highly respected amateur, and was in fact, THE amareur player in the U.S. after he became the first person to win both the U.S. Open and U.S. Amateur championships in the same year.

Charles "Chick" Evans.

WHY didn't Chick lose his amateur standing while some such as Tilly & Travis did? Because he evidently didn't accept remuneration for these articles, for if he had, he would have been declared a professional. In fact, he actually made a habit of contacting the USGA by letter and asking how they would rule if he performed certain functions, such as golf course design, and whether the ACT of doing so would cost him his standing. He was always told that there wasn't a problem so long as he didn't get paid for doing it.

Was the purpose of the using a pseudonym for golf writing simply a means of keeping an amateur standing that should have been forfeited under the rules?

I don't believe so. As many knew who "Hazard" and others actually were, it his next to impossible to accept that using a pseudonym would enable some to honorably "cheat." This is just out of the realm of possibilities. For one person, maybe, for a number to agree to this, it's ludicrous to believe it so.

In addition, when Tilly began using the pseudonym of "Hazard" (I believe his first artcile in the AG under that name was in 1908) the possibility of losing one's amateur status because of accepting money to write about golf was not yet an issue and the ruling wouldn't happen until 1916 or so (Too tired to look up the year. For those that have my Tilly bio there is a section in the appendix titled "The Amateur Question" that examines this issue strictly from Tilly's perspective).

On top of that, when Tilly had his amateur first threatened for doing this and designing golf courses (for him it was a dual-reasoned removal), he wrote as "Hazard" in July 1914 about his personal situation. He concluded with the statement that "If such be sin, then I will continue in the ways of sin..."

So as to WHY they used psudonym's and then didn't have everyone do so in the American Golfer is another question that needs thinking about...
 

[TEPaul]

"Yes, Tom, There were at least two occasions that I can think of off-hand, though I'll have to look up the exact references for you, where he gave up writing for a magazine or newspaper for the single reason that he was too busy with his design work. One of these was the Philadelphia Record and the other was the American Golfer."

Phil:

Pardon me for asking but I would like an answer on whether there is anything at all that you're aware of that Tilly really was too busy, particularly in those years 1911 and 1912, to basically give up or seriously slow down in contributing to AG as "Hazard" or whether that's simply your own interpretation.

"Also, I never made the claim that B.C. Tillinghast was F&S; in fact in my first posts, as well as subsequent ones, clearly stated that I didn't think he was. The reason for mentioning him as a possibility is because part of the argument by some on here that F&S must have been Tilly was that they couldn't think of anyone else with his writing experience, playing experience ,social connections, had access to Tilly's photos, may have been present during some of the matches he played in and had the influence in the game locally and nationally from the Philly area as he did. Clearly B.C. did and, in fact, he wrote for the AG. That he isn't doesn't prove anything about the claim of Tilly being F&S, but rather clearly shows that there were others who fit this bill.

Here's another name for you as a possibility... Cameron Buxton. He also most likely is not the one. The point is that there are a number from that time who do qualify and do meet the clues given... it's just that he hasn't been identified as of yet."


Phil:

I don't think this discussion of whether Tilly wrote under the pen name "Far and Sure" needs to be carried on in a manner like a court of law where one side simply guards their interest. We, here in Philadelphia, are only trying to figure out who it was (not necessarily one person in our minds) who wrote under the pan name "Far and Sure" for American Golfer. There are some other likely suspects and we probably know a lot more about and who they may have been and their particulars than you do, but it seems like, at least in our collective opinions, not a single one of them fit the bill for a whole host of reasons as well as Tilly did.

I've asked you before and I'll ask you again---eg why is it that you continue to resist the fact Tilly could've written under the pen name "Far and Sure" as well as under the pen name "Hazard?" I remind you again that I can't see that AG ever carried the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" section (the section that Tilly wrote under using the pen name "Hazard" some of the time) in any single month under both pen names. Is it really because you think he was too busy at the time you mentioned (1911 and 1912) or is there some other reason?

I saw Mike Cirba yesterday at the Haverford College Library (a group of us were reading the old American Cricketer magazines) and on the way out as we were talking I mentioned that what is really behind this discussion of "Far and Sure" and Tilly is really all about the things that have been discussed so much on this website about Merion and particularly the two people who have questioned the architectural attribution to Hugh Wilson and supported the fact that Macdonald may've designed the course or been the creative force behind it.

He agreed with that. So I think these threads on Tilly and pen names essentially goes directly to the crediblilty of the writer behind the pen names Hazard and most certainly Far and Sure too. For that reason we want to know who he was and how close to that club and the people from it the writer under the pen name "Far and Sure" was.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yesterday, we may've found another person who might fit the bill as the identity behind "Far and Sure" but as of now, at least in my opinion, for a few reasons he just does not exactly fit the bill as well as Tillie does.

Tom,

We can scratch J. I. Lineaweaver.   He was a member of Merion as early as 1909 and still was when the new course opened and he played on their competitive teams with Perrin, Lloyd, Hugh Wilson, Francis, Willoughby, et.al.

I find it extremely unlikely that a member of the club would have written the "Far and Sure" article, especially since he termed the two Merion members (Willoughby and Perrin) who accompanied him  on his first go-rounds as his "guides".

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

That Lineaweaver may've been a member of Merion or even if he was, in my mind that does not necessarily discount him as a possiblilty as the writer under the pen name "Far and Sure". Part of the entire gig of pseudonym or pen name writing is to disguise the writer because he may look to the casual observer and reader to be not exactly impartial to the subject at hand, perhaps in this case, Merion.

I do feel one thing, though, and that is whomever wrote as "Far and Sure" he was definitely on that dinner list of that meeting of the Golf Association of Philadelphia that was published under one of "Far and Sure's" column. If he wasn't at that dinner there is no conceivable way he could've written a detailed first hand account as was in that particular column of "Far and Sure's."

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

What business would Chick Evans have going on up in the Poconos and Scranton area in 1911?    The courses that were there at the time (excluding the fledging Shawnee course) were beyond primitive and I'm surprised anyone even knew they were playing golf in my old neighborhood around Scranton and Wilkes-Barre.

Tom Paul,

I agree with you about the dinner guests at the GAP gala.

However, clever a ruse as it may have been, I can't imagine Lineaweaver as a Merion member stating that he had heard good things from CB Macdonald two years prior and mention that he hadn't had a chance to even see the new course until this time, and then state;

"Fortunately I had as my first guides two of Merion's best golfers;  Mr. Howard W. Perrin and Mr. Hugh Willoughby, and my two rounds there that day were delightful."

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

It's little items like that so many miss and are so indicative. Throw out Lineaweaver then if he belonged to Merion. Who would say such a thing who belonged to the club? I think pen names writers take some liberties with the truth such as sometimes referring to themselves in the third person but I don't think they just tell blatant lies about not being there for months or years.

[TEPaul]

Most of my reason for this particular thread was not to discuss who American Golfer's "Far and Sure" really was but to uncover some of the interesting reasons why pen names were used as well as revealing some of the interesting little literary tricks pen name writers such as those who wrote for golf magazines used to keep their real identity under wraps to most readers but certainly not all for obvious reasons.

But one thing I think I'm beginning to see from the "Far and Sure" threads is that a clever pen name writer seems to highlight those things in what he writes that make people look for reasons why it couldn't be him and he somehow minimizes those things in what he writes that make people try to find reasons to think it is him.

To mention himself in the third person in his articles is certainly one clever trick to make some people think it isn't him. Judging from some of those "Far and Sure" threads it seems like juggling different pen names is another trick to make people think it couldn't be him.  I guess another clever pen name trick is if more than one writer used the same pen name.

It seems like it was a pretty funny game with the hallmark being to just keep most people guessing as long as possible. If Tillinghast really did use the "Far and Sure" pen name from time to time he sure has been successful at keeping most of the readership guessing. If it turns out some day to be truly obvious that Tilly did use the pen name "Far and Sure" and that he actually fooled one of his own biographers, well, it seems to me that would be downright hilarious, and I bet Tilly would probably enjoy that as much or more than anyone.

I really do have this sort of "time machine" desire to just want to meet some of those people we study on here from the old days and at this point I sure would like to spend a day or so with Tilly to analyze not just his architectural ideas but to also really check out the sense of humor he had. Something tells me it was off-beat and really good! 

[Mike_Cirba]

It seems like it was a pretty funny game with the hallmark being to just keep most people guessing as long as possible. If Tillinghast really did use the "Far and Sure" pen name from time to time he sure has been I really do have this sort of "time machine" desire to just want to meet some of those people we study on here from the old days and at this point I sure would like to spend a day or so with Tilly to analyze not just his architectural ideas but to also really check out the sense of humor he had. Something tells me it was off-beat and really good! 

Tom,

By today's standards, he was also a flagrant racist and bigot! 

That one commentary we read in "American Cricketer" about those with brains was a doozy!   
   

[Jeff Fortson]

I think monikers are fine to use for those that really need them.  Any architect, any Tour Pro that now designs, and even Mr. Doak who bravely posts under his own name, would be candidates in my opinion.  If there are things that would benefit GCA but are not said because of the fear of how it would affect one's career then by all means let them post as "Forced Containment" or "Mr. Artificial Waterfall". 

I don't think a guy like me or anyone not making a living from GCA should use one.  Everyone knows who some of these guys are and I think it should stop. 


Jeff F.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Yes, that one in American Cricketer was pretty amazing. I don't have much feel for how well or if a writer could get away with something like that a century ago but if someone wrote that today in a periodical I'm pretty sure that would be the immediate end of their employment at that periodical.

However, personally I have no problem at all rerunning something like that on here or in print today. If that's what was acceptable in print back then there is no reason at all we should not know about it, in my opinion. After-all it IS history.

[Ed Homsey]

Having been involved, as Travis Society Archivist, in helping with the research for "The Old Man", and involved in discussions with Bob Labbance about the pseudonyms, I can tell you there is no 'smoking gun' out there.  On the other hand, it is possible that Kevin Mendik, as TEPaul suggests, might have found something in Bob's papers, etc.  Well worth an inquiry.

Ed

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