Arizona vs Colorado

[Andy Troeger]

In the interest of not threadjacking Matt's top ten in Arizona I wanted to ask this  question as a new topic.

How does the top ten in Arizona compare in your opinion to Colorado's top ten? I think the two states are an interesting comparison seeing as they have many more "modern" courses than classic ones.

I'll provide details later, but I'll take Colorado. Castle Pines, Ballyneal, some of the Jim Engh designs, Cherry Hills, and a few others put it over the top IMO.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's not only the water that flows from Colorado to Arizona.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Thanks for the non-hijack hijack.

Seriously, if you compare the two states -- Colorado has the better case with the courses that are truly public -- those either owned by a taxpayer entity (state, county, local), and those that are stand alone public courses (either CCFAD or those charging more modest rates).

Andy, one of the disadvantages you have is that you have not played a number of the top tier private courses I mentioned from the Grand Canyon State. You have played a good number from The Centennial State but the private side is more hotly contested than you and others might imagine.

Frankly, there are few classic courses that would be in the mix for discussion purposes -- save for the likes of Cherry Hills and possibly one or two others.

Off the top of my head my top ten in Colorado would be (in no particular order)

Ballyneal

Castle Pines

Red Sky Ranch / Norman

Broadmoor / East

Pradera

Hiwan

Lakota Canyon Ranch / Four Mile Ranch *both are solid Engh layouts on the public side



* Please make note I have not played Colorado GC to date so it's not included thus far.

I'll add a few others but I am not a big time fan of Cherry Hills but for full disclosure purposes I have not played it since the recent work done there was completed.

[Kirk Gill]

Matt and  Andy -

How do you guys feel about Denver Country Club?

I don't know that I'm capable of being objective about the course. I'd be interested in your opinions.

[Matt_Ward]

Kirk:

I have not played the course to date so I'm not in a position to say -- years ago I did walk the layout after a t-storm but the course from what I remember Doug W telling he has gone through a process of updating itself since that time which was roughly 15 years ago.

You know Colorado and Arizona make for an interesting contest. The private side is really quite close -- ditto the CCFAD / resort stuff. The available public course options look like The Centennial State has the edge.

[Andy Troeger]

Kirk,
I haven't played Denver CC either. There are still quite a few courses in the Denver area I'd like to see--that one, Columbine CC, Ravenna, Bear Dance, Fossil Trace, etc.

Matt,
I have played more of the courses YOU like in Colorado than Arizona, probably similar in terms of the overall (I've missed at least as many of the overall in CO as AZ). I tend to agree that the private side is probably fairly close. Castle Pines, Ballyneal, and Sanctuary (which I know you don't like that well) give CO the edge at the top, and I think Cherry Hills, Colorado GC, Pradera, Roaring Fork, Adam's Mountain (a new Weiskopf), and CC of the Rockies provide some very solid designs. AZ certainly has a strong list in its own right.

The public side to me is where CO runs the table. You've named and played most of the CO favorites, I just don't see there being enough depth in AZ that can match the quality of Lakota, Red Sky, Redlands Mesa, Cougar Canyon, Broadmoor, etc. I haven't played all the super high-priced stuff in AZ though either, so perhaps Greyhawk or The Boulders would change my mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

AZ public golf is slowly evolving to a more day-to-day feature where the public stand alone model can work without being tied to the CCFAD or high-end resort model. The growth of the state is slowly changing that previous model but with the lack of water and land availability I don't see how much more golf -- beyond the ultra private and high end resort model -- will ever occur there.

Much of that has to be tied to AZ's focus on capturing seasonal snow bird dollars but there are exceptions as I and others have pointed out -- it's just that these exceptions are mainly that -- exceptions.

Be sure to play Rancho de los Caballeros in Wickenburg the next time you're there. First rate layout that gets little attention. In many ways it reminds me of the general lack of attention that a place like Hiwan gets in Co.

[Jim Franklin]

I will preface this by saying I really like Jim Engh's work, but if Lakota Canyon is top 10 Colorado, then Arizona wins. Even though I like Ballyneal better than any course in Arizona by a long shot.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

Curious to know ?

How do you view Lakota Canyon Ranch among other top tier public courses you have played? Especially those with a daily price tag below $125.

One other thing to keep in mind -- CO's depth of private courses is not really that strong once you get beyond Ballyneal. AZ does quite well in that specific area.

[Peter Zarlengo]

Jim F & Matt-

I tend to agree, and really that if really any of Engh's work in CO is around the top 7 or so I'd be surprised.

Ballyneal, Colorado Golf Club, Cherry Hills, Castle Pines GC, and Denver CC are part of a solid top 5 in my opinion. I'm not sure that constitutes depth, but gives pretty solid options in a fairly tight radius. Riverdale Dunes, CommonGround, and Murphy Creek all provide good public options. Haven't played much in the mountains, due to my inclination to climb and fish while up there, and even in my summer working up there, I only played a couple of courses.

I think where Arizona looks up to CO, and I've only played in AZ once, comes down to the diversity in terrain. In CO, one can play the prairie course, parkland courses, mountain courses, desert courses, and links-style courses. I'm not too sure AZ can offer that up.

[Tom Yost]

I think where Arizona looks up to CO, and I've only played in AZ once, comes down to the diversity in terrain. In CO, one can play the prairie course, parkland courses, mountain courses, desert courses, and links-style courses. I'm not too sure AZ can offer that up.

Many are surprised at the diversity of terrain that can be found in Arizona, not that all of it has been exploited for golf course siting.  Given that neither state has any ocean shoreline, "links-style" can be left for interpretation.

[Peter Zarlengo]

I know, and I hesitated writing that, but how many courses in AZ can compare to the terrain, wind, firmness, vegetation, and aesthetic of a Ballyneal or Riverdale?

Driving through Arizona, I was surprised as well. Where do you feel that people have yet to consider in the AZ golf scene?

[Andy Troeger]

One other thing to keep in mind -- CO's depth of private courses is not really that strong once you get beyond Ballyneal. AZ does quite well in that specific area.

Personally, I totally disagree with that regarding CO. I already listed the 5-6 courses above that I think are very strong. Roaring Fork gets no credit on this board but is really a strong course. Better than most of Jack's more noted efforts IMO.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Before you shoot forward with a definitive comment -- how bout you play both of the courses at Whisper Rock and the combination of cited courses at Desert Mountain before saying with certainity that CO is clearly the better of the two? Ditto the likes of Rancho de los Caballeros which I mentioned previously.

I've played Roaring Fork and it's a fine layout but it's playing serious catch up to the likes of Chiricahua and Outlaw at DM.

The private side of golf in AZ has benefited from the desire to create various gated communities of all stripes throughout the Valley of the Sun area and in nearby Tucson. Ditto the qualities of the layouts in and around the Flagstaff area.

Ballyneal is the Michael Jordan of Colorado golf layouts. AZ is more akin to what the Lakers were like in the late 80's / early 90's -- in sum, more depth.

Keep in mind plenty of CO private layouts -- especially those on the front range and on the western slope are more eye-candy than real design quality type stuff IMHO.

Give you a good example -- a good case can be made that Blackstone in AZ -- one of Engh's better layouts -- has the stronger case than what he did in Parker with The GC at Pradera.

The public side, in my mind, is where CO has the edge because public golf in AZ has been much slower to blossom because of the push on the private side.

Peter Z:

Be sure to play Four Mile Ranch in Canon City and let me and everyone else know your thoughts on what Engh did there. He has evolved his style to avoid the elements that were contrived from some earlier efforts.

I also think it's premature to say CommonGround has the edge to date when, if memory serves, it has not really opened yet. Riverdale Dunes and Murphy Creek are both fine layouts but I'll take FMR and even Bear Dance over the two of them for sheer creativity and better usgae of the terrain and more diverse holes and greensites.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
How about you play Colorado GC, Adam's Mountain and perhaps the new Norman course in Montrose before you make your statement that Colorado doesn't have depth of private courses? You seem to think you've played all the major players, but have missed three at least in CO.

I would take Pradera over Blackstone. Sanctuary easily over Blackstone. And I think Blackstone is top 10 in AZ. That is kind of my point 

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Yes, I missed Colorado GC -- that's one layout. Geeze Andy help me out here. You've have missed five at DM -- three that are noteworthy -- plus the two at WR. Ditto Los Caballeros. Shall I add more?

I walked the site at Cornerstone and have held back comments until I play it - just realize that I also like what Norman did at Red Sky Ranch but that's more of a public layout than strictly a private one. I also walked Adam's Mountain on my most recent trek to the state and it's good -- but it's not better than Silverleaf and or what Weiskopf did at Seven Canyons -- even though I am not a huge fan of that layout. Ditto what Weiskopf did in tandem w Moorish at The Rim.

Andy, get real w Sanctuary. The place is way too severe - the course placed Engh on the map for dealing with harsh sites and it was good for one to get the exposure that was generated, but it fails for a whole host of reasons in really identifying good shots from poor ones. At Blackstone you see a more refined Engh and one that didn't have to do deathtifying gravity tricks as he did with the layout in Sedalia. Engh overplayed man's hand to make Sanctuary work and it's easy to spot there -- much less so at Blackstone. Pradera is a closer call but check out the severe application of mounding you see with a few holes on the front side.

I stand by what I said about private golf in AZ. Ballyneal is the Michael Jordan -- I have no issue with that because it's thaaaat good. However, AZ has the more superior depth and frankly I think I have been quite fair in my analysis. If you disagree so be it.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
You're certainly entitled to your opinion and analysis, I don't just don't agree with much of it. I'm somewhat tempted to attempt a joke considering we don't seem to agree on much of anything of late, however, I'm not sure it would come across well on an Internet forum, so we'll leave it at that.   

[Tom Yost]

I know, and I hesitated writing that, but how many courses in AZ can compare to the terrain, wind, firmness, vegetation, and aesthetic of a Ballyneal or Riverdale?

Driving through Arizona, I was surprised as well. Where do you feel that people have yet to consider in the AZ golf scene?

I would venture Arizona has nothing to compare to Ballyneal (terrain-wise).   But then again, few states do.   But the whole concept of building a golf course on a remote site that is ideal for golf, is kind of new.  The development of places like Ballyneal and Sand Hills is a bit of a shift is it not? 

Perhaps there are similar sites in Arizona?  I don't know.

[Andy Troeger]

I would venture a guess that an interesting course could be developed somewhere along the I-40 corridor in NE Arizona. Parts of that area are pretty dull, but other portions have some neat looking features. New Mexico has a lot of that ground as well. Generally some very remote areas though...

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Yost:

A few years back when a small but dedicated group men decided to push ahead with a men's only club in the Maricopa area -- just outside the Chandler area -- there was the potential to do what the folks at Sand Hills and Ballyneal did.

The land site was devoid of regular desert life that you see in the greater Scottsdale area and could have been something special.

The opening of Royal Dunes didn't prove to be nearly as grandiose as all the talk that preceded its opening. It is clearly different than a number of other desert courses but it's layout is clearly influenced by man's hands and doesn't have the connection to the land that you find so readily with the likes of Sand Hills and Ballyneal, to name just one point of differentiation.

Tom, there is land in AZ but the question is whether the project is there to be had. Doak did well w Apache Stronghold in Globe but frankly I don't see that layout ever being more than marginal in terms of turf shape to fully bring to life all the design elements that were included from the get-go.

[Tom Yost]

Tom Yost:

A few years back when a small but dedicated group men decided to push ahead with a men's only club in the Maricopa area -- just outside the Chandler area -- there was the potential to do what the folks at Sand Hills and Ballyneal did.

The land site was devoid of regular desert life that you see in the greater Scottsdale area and could have been something special.

The opening of Royal Dunes didn't prove to be nearly as grandiose as all the talk that preceded its opening. It is clearly different than a number of other desert courses but it's layout is clearly influenced by man's hands and doesn't have the connection to the land that you find so readily with the likes of Sand Hills and Ballyneal, to name just one point of differentiation.

Tom, there is land in AZ but the question is whether the project is there to be had. Doak did well w Apache Stronghold in Globe but frankly I don't see that layout ever being more than marginal in terms of turf shape to fully bring to life all the design elements that were included from the get-go.

Matt;

I don't think Royal Dunes was seeking to attract a "national" membership like Ballyneal and Sand Hills as there are no accommodations on site.   There was also a lot of negative publicity surrounding the "men only" policy.  Now it seems that the course has been foreclosed upon (see Steve Shaffer's thread).

With the current market climate, I don't think we will be seeing too many new developments of the likes of Ballyneal or Sand Hills for a while.   Even when things were good, they were considered a risky venture by many.

About Los Caballeros:  I had not seen it mentioned on this site in previous discussions of Arizona golf, but you've brought it up in this and the other AZ top 10 thread.  Wondering if it is a recent discovery for you?

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I've been playing at Los Cab for quite some time -- likely been to the course about 5-6 times.

The place doesn't get much ink because Wickenburg is not that close to Phoenix / Scottsdale and with all the golf going on in those places it just seems people either forgot about it or never bothered to find out more.

I still see the course as a "must play" that really showcases a very unique and fun place to play with a desert theme.

In regards to RD - I think the land site could have been made into a better course than what is there now. In regards to the decision to be a men's club -- I think they really hammered themselves for such a narrow thinking business model.

[Matt_Ward]

Interesting to note that on the cover of the October 25 issue of Golfweek is the famed par-3 16th hole at Cornerstone -- one of the really superb holes I played this year and it clearly provides a different take on the meaning of an 'island' hole.

One other sidenote -- the magazine erroneously identifies the hole as the 5th.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

Lakota, if viewed as a public course for under $125 isn't a bad option, but we are comparing the the top courses. It does have some very enjoyable holes, but the repititious nature of the bowl greens was a little much for me. Granted, I have only played it once and maybe I was in a bad mood, but it seemed every hole was the same. I should give it another shot.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Don't know if you have played either Pradera or Four Mile Ranch -- but the degree by which Engh has involved man's hands into those sites is a good bit less and obvious than what you see at Lakota Canyon Ranch.

Although I have to say that a second play of the course may in fact temper your original feelings just a bit.