[Kyle Harris]

Choice A:


Choice B:

[Mark Pearce]

I don't recognise either, so this is completely without bias. 

Both could lose some trees.  In particular the copse on the left of A, after the fairway bunkering looks completely pointless.  For me the winner by a distance is B, the bunkering on A is over the top and the hole doesn't appeal.  B looks a challenging and interesting hole.

[Andy Troeger]

Pretty sure I recognize A but not B. In either case, I like B better. A looks tough with the bunkers pinching in, but B looks more interesting. One would need to pick a target from the tee and execute a shot on that line. A its pretty obvious where to aim and hit it.

[Mike Golden]

B is #18 at Bethpage Red, which is only the BPB's first fairway away from #18 on the Black.  #18 on the Red is a good hole but, from memory, fairly short (under 400 yards) and I wouldn't think it much more of a test than the Black.  I haven't played the Red nearly as much as the Black but it is a fine golf course (#1 might be the most difficult opening hole I've ever seen, 450 par 4 uphill) but, IMO, not the championship test of the Black.  The Red reminds me very much of SFGC, course conditioning and exclusivity notwithstanding.

[Kyle Harris]

B is #18 at Bethpage Red, which is only the BPB's first fairway away from #18 on the Black.  #18 on the Red is a good hole but, from memory, fairly short (under 400 yards) and I wouldn't think it much more of a test than the Black.  I haven't played the Red nearly as much as the Black but it is a fine golf course (#1 might be the most difficult opening hole I've ever seen, 450 par 4 uphill) but, IMO, not the championship test of the Black.  The Red reminds me very much of SFGC, course conditioning and exclusivity notwithstanding.

Mike,

The 18th on the Red now plays over 400 yards (and the entire golf course almost 7100). I'll get an exact yardage once the rain stops (scorecard in my trunk) but from the new back tee, I think it's 440 yards.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

For years I suggested to both Craig and Tom Meeks that the real way to close Bethpage Black was to put a tee in front of the 18th tees and then play up to the 18th of Red and dogleg into the green.  I measured the hole this summer and it would be around 480 give or take a few yards.  Most importanty, the left fairway bunker would require a 310 uphill carry, but a shot could be hit that curved somewhat around the bunker.
   Incidentally, the Red is now tipping around 7250 from the back tees with par of 70.

[wsmorrison]

The 18th at Bethpage Black is AWFUL.  I can't judge the qualities of the 18th at Bethpage Red based on a photograph.  Can anyone post a photo of the 18th at BB before it was redone?

[Matt_Ward]

Wayne:

You and I are on agreement 10000% concerning the finale at Bethpage Black. The finisher could have been much more than what Rees Jones, et al decided to do there. The bunkers that straightjacket the fairway are routinely played short of from the teeing ground -- leaving nothing more than a simple mid iron (6-7) usually into the target.

People have routinely bashed the 18th at CP for being weak -- the 18th at BB is even worse than that hole and for someone who really does enjoy the Black that is saying something.

Wayne, the previous 18th hole at BB featured a much more circular green with a bit less in the bunker department -- both in the fairway and green. In short, the Rees Jones "adjustment" was something of an inbetween solution. I would have loved to seen a completely different 18th hole model with the players having a realistic go at the green with the tee shot and a green that would be radically different (but still in the Tillinghast formula) for such a version.

Robert M.D.:

I like the idea but it's even more of a stretch to handle foot traffic and the like by forcing in another hole -- this time on the Red as the closer.

The issue with the Black is having a finesse hole that can add to the overall program. The Black has plenty of the 480+ yard holes -- it needs a closer that can extract the maximum in both mental and physical calculation -- a driveable ender would do that and so much more.

[Matt OBrien]

A looks more intimidating but B looks like the better hole

[Justin Broderson]

Matt,

   Looking at my yardage book if you lay up before the bunkers you are looking at at about 185 to the green.  For those who haven't played it thats a pretty much straight up hill 185, most likely plays about 195-200.  Throw in a little wind and the pressure of playing a a US Open an uphill 185 is no easy shot.  I do agree though that the bunkering is just overkill. 

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

   Looking at my yardage book if you lay up before the bunkers you are looking at at about 185 to the green.  For those who haven't played it thats a pretty much straight up hill 185, most likely plays about 195-200.  Throw in a little wind and the pressure of playing a a US Open an uphill 185 is no easy shot.  I do agree though that the bunkering is just overkill. 

That's 7-iron for those guys.

[Matt_Ward]

Justin:

Tiger hit 2-iron off the tee during the '02 Open and had anywhere from 6- 7-8 irons into the green. The bunkers are merely window dressing -- the top players didn't have to challenge the hole to still make a routine par and at times a birdie. For me, that's a boring finale -- I'd like to see a bit more daring do but that won't happen because the powers-that-be are trapped into seeing the existing closer as a soild hole.

There's a clear alternative as I mentioned that would make for a much more fun ending. Bethpage Black has enough power par-4's in its arsenal -- it needs a closing hole where guile and savvy would be even more important than brute strength alone.

[Gene Greco]

Wayne:
People have routinely bashed the 18th at CP for being weak -- the 18th at BB is even worse than that hole and for someone who really does enjoy the Black that is saying something.

Agreed.

[James Boon]

Funny, when I was just looking through the Bethpage Red thread I had exactly the same thought. Not played either but from photos, what I've seen on TV and Google Earth, 18 on Red looks far better!

Cheers,

James

[Bill Gayne]

Neither of these holes would be able to create the drama through it's architecture that the closing hole of a major deserves. Compare these holes to the architectural merits for the closing holes at Riviera, Pebble Beach, Augusta, Shinnecock, Carnoustie, and The Old Course. That's the top six closing holes for majors that come to top of mind for me.

[wsmorrison]

The 18th at BB is one of the worst finishing holes I've ever seen, let alone of a major championship course.  It would seem that both holes are far from the best closer for a US Open, though the finish at BR seems better of the two by default since BB 18 is so bad.

Of the finishing holes Bill mentioned, they are all far better than the finish at BB and are major league holes compared to BB, which is a single A hole (no pun intended).

For me, probably at no surprise, the best finishing hole on major championship courses is Merion East.  It has to be the hardest to par or birdie of them all so in that regard it is much different than the rewards possible from TOC 18 or PB as a par 5 in the modern world.  Carnoustie is as difficult to par as Merion because it easier to one-putt and avoid a three-putt for that matter.  So Carnoustie is an easier bogey hole, though the last couple of Opens would have one think otherwise.  It was simply bad decision making in one instance and bad execution in another.

If one accepts the final hole as being a difficult one, and I do, then Merion's 18th is all one can handle.  It has length, an imposing tee shot, a rolling and canted fairway, an upslope and false front green that is crowned along the line of play.  It has a wide opening for a run-up opportunity, but that has to be precisely executed or else the ball comes up short in the back to front sloping portion of the first half of the green or runs over the green in the front to back sloping portion of the rear half of the green.  There are no bunkers on the tee shot, just as well given the high demand, but the bunkers at the green end are deep and threatening.

[Matt_Ward]

My vote is a tie between two layouts ...

WF / W &

Oakmont

Getting a birdie, especially on the first choice above is especially demanding. Just witness what happened in the '06 US Open.

Nuff said ...

[Mike Golden]

People can bash #18 on the Black all you want but, in 15, 16, and 17, you have 3 prior holes that are as good as it gets leading up to #18.  And the rest of the back 9 isn't chopped liver either.

[Wayne Freeman]

Man-  this is a tough crowd.  I think a bunch of you guys are being a little harsh.  Like Mike says, there are 3 really tough holes before the finisher at the Black and 18 is still no pushover.  If you hit the fairway with your drive, you still have a pretty challenging very much uphill shot.  Yes, the 18th at Merion and others like the last at Southern Hills are ballbusters, but there is plenty of precedent for less than all world endings at Open venues.  Olympic,  Colonial,  Interlachen, Pebble, and Torrey all have finishes that are good birdie opportunities and not real tough.  I don't think that really detracts from their worth.  The Black is one of the best Open tracks period and in the over all analysis ( and IMHO) really has no weakness.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

The changes to the Black Course over the past few years have made it near farce for a US Open, but that's a different thread entirely.

It's as if Tiger shooting -3 and being the only person under par in 2002 wasn't good enough for the USGA.

[Ryan Chin]

The Black's 18th is one-dimensional. The only decision is to either hit between the bunkers or lay back. But since it is ***SO*** narrow that only a perfect strike will land in the fairway at the narrowest point, of course the players would opt to lay up. They're not going to chance auto bogey on that.

There is no decision. No one would chance hitting in the bunker and not being able to reach the green.

Love the topic!

[Mike_Cirba]

Is this a trick question? 


The "Rees Jones does Salvadore Dali" 18th on the Black should be blown to smithereens, and either restored to Tillinghast's original plans as a short, birdieable, but somewhat perplexing par four, or they should use the 18th of the Red course as Kyle has suggested here.

[Phil_the_Author]

I will NOT participate in this thread!

I will however pose an interesting piece of trivia about a common thread to the two finishing holes.

Both holes have been DRIVEN! Both times it was by the SAME player! Any ideas as to who it was? This is definitely NOT  atrcik question...

[wsmorrison]

Phil,

Do you have any photos of the 18th or other holes significantly altered so we can see what was intended and what was changed?

As to your question....Oooh!  I know, I know!  Is his last name Young and his first name not Phil?

GO PHILLIES!!!!!!

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

Yes on both accounts... His first name was Steve, and he was my oldest brother... I actually witnessed his drive on 18 on the Black. He FLEW it on the green from the 350- yard tee. It was in June of 1989 and he used a steel-shafted persimmon driver...

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