News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
The modern period of design is dead.
« on: October 24, 2008, 11:01:03 AM »
The modern period is dead.

It died with death of the runway tee (RTJ r.i.p) and mermaid bunkers (Muirhead, r.i.p)

We've entered the 'post-modern' period. e.g. Modern 'links' designs no longer resemble the classic links of the world. In the post modern period, Links are severe and greatly undulating.

In the post-modern period golf course design are eco-centric and architects bow to the laws and legislature of the environment.

In this 'radical' world, architects understand the pressures of limited water supplies and use technology to reduce the need for enormous irrigation systems putting out hundred of thousands of countless gallons of water.

Form still follows function, but post modern designs but a twist in the mix. What's the 'twist' that you have noticed?

scott


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2008, 11:23:29 AM »
The "runway" remains the most functional tee design in the history of golf course architecture. 
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2008, 12:10:45 PM »
That's runaway!  I'm partial to the amorphous. But I do like a nice convex boomerang.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2008, 12:35:00 PM »
Michael,

The runway tee may be practical (if you are a greenkeeper and like easy mowing), but they are not functional on sloping sites or holes have require 100 yards between the back tee and the forward tee.

In a post-modern design world, the more functional form is perhaps the level, very low (barely raised) tee capable of a few tee positions. If you like the retro-design style, this tee may be square in shape, but is otherwise organic (rounded).

What do you think?

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 02:09:27 PM »
Nicely said, Scott.  These new courses, at least the ones I've played, tend to be more undulating, which also means they are more difficult, which may be necessary given the improvements in modern equipment.

Some "post-modern" designers build courses that are very expensive to maintain, with ornate and superfluous bunkers.

Anyway, have to go, but didn't want to let this topic float to the bottom without everybody having a second look.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2008, 09:26:46 PM »
My read of the history of gca is that form follows function only when it must. We've just come off four decades in which there were very few monetary or water constraints on golf design. 

You are right that that era is probably dead. We will have to operate within smaller budgets and with less water.

My guess is that those changes will have more impact on the styles of Fazio and Nicklaus, than on those of C&C, Doak and others.

In any event I look forward to seeing how the architecture profession responds to those changes.

My hope is that the next era will be one in which new courses - perhaps out of necessity - will look more like low key historic links courses. 

But as they say, we'll see.

Bob

John Moore II

Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 09:48:49 PM »
I hate the term "post-modern." Its a silly term. The most recent, or current period, is always the Modern Period. The period preceeding that one should then be re-named. While I don't know what to rename it, its not Modern. Modern is today, post-modern would then be after today how do we know what is going to happen after today?

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2008, 04:20:49 AM »
HI John,

I would tend to agree with you, the term 'post-modern' is not quite right. But the point is that the 'modern period' being referred to in another interesting thread has finished. Perhaps that period was characterised by the presence of machinery to move large amounts of dirt... so maybe it was the 'industrial period' or 'machinery period'. Whatever it was, it is over and perhaps sometime in the 1980's or 1990's things changed again to the highly regulated period that we enjoy  :-\ now.

Tom Doak wrote somewhere that too many expensive courses of mediocre interest have been built and the future is in more highly interesting/engaging courses being built on lower budgets. I've paraphrased that, but I do agree.

The new Castle course in St Andrews has been reported by the Links Trust as costing £12m. 8 years ago Kingbarns was about a third of that. I know what is better value for money.

I hope in the new 'modern' period the best architects now and in the future will be delivering great courses on limited budgets. The game will grow much stronger if green fees and membership are more affordable, and the game does not become a luxury for the wealthy.

Do you agree?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2008, 09:38:49 AM »
I hate the term "post-modern." Its a silly term. The most recent, or current period, is always the Modern Period. The period preceeding that one should then be re-named. While I don't know what to rename it, its not Modern. Modern is today, post-modern would then be after today how do we know what is going to happen after today?

 so true.

Scott,

While I see your point, actual golf construction is now so low a % of the total budget, I have never been sure that minimalism is the key to substantially lower costs in the USA.  You can probably save as much by eliminating the big name fee, but I don't see that hapeening either.  And it varies from site to site.  For example, the remediation costs on a quarry site might offset any savings in permitting costs, or be higher.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2008, 11:21:23 AM »
Scott:

I like that first post of yours. I think there is a very healthy slice of sort of renaissance ideas cropping up in architecture these days from a lot more architects than a website like this one may admit to.

I see things like bunkering that is getting inside fairway lines, into the middle of things, perhaps a bit more "turning" in various ways and there seems to be a whole lot more "in your face" optional lines and strategies than there was ten or even fifteen years ago.

I don't even know that it's particularly identifiable where it specifically came from but it seems like some little kernel that got planted a while ago (probably from one of this site's favorites) and it's seeping into the fabric of things a lot more.

There doesn't seem that much of the old "hit it into the center" that's guarded on both sides that was sort of the theme of the thing some of us call the "Modern" age.

I still think of some those really revolutionary ideas that seemed to be coming out of the minds of the likes of Behr and Mackenzie back in the late 1920s (maybe more in writing than on the ground) that are still in the air and I'd like to see someone really experiment with them. Only problem is there may be some real obstacles to them that will prevent them----eg excessive fairway area or even litigiousness (danger and liability).
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 11:28:50 AM by TEPaul »

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2008, 11:47:32 AM »
Pundits are fond of making such assertions, that a design tenet or period is “dead” or over, perhaps just to motivate a discussion.  But fashions come and fashions go.  Then they come and go again.  Those who make such assertions are soon likely to be proven wrong.

e.g., it’s probably been said here before and often, the much-ballyhooed and mislabeled “minimalism” is not aesthetically “post-modern” but simply a return to golf architecture’s origins.  With better tools, for sure, that enable designers like Tom Doak to put three feet of sand on top of a cliff to form the fairways at Pacific Dunes 4th and 13th, and make those holes look like they’ve been there forever. 

Don’t many of today’s GCAs aim to emulate Old Tom when they design a course that appears to fit the land rather than be imposed on it? In that case have we entered a new era or returned to an old way of thinking?

(Note: as I reread those questions, the answers seem obvious to me, but maybe because I am unburdened by golf design or historical expertise—ignorance is bliss.)

It’s also a mistake IMO to pick out “twists” as defining an era.  In the book “Golf by Design” Mr. Robert Trent Jones Jr. quotes Willie Park as saying “tees should be placed on level parts of the course if possible with a slight slope upward in the direction to be played.” He cites “Park’s ideas” as the beginning of an evolution in GCA thinking that ultimately led to:

the runway tees popularized by his father, which in turn led to
 “multiple teeing surfaces” 
then to “new ways to shape a tee”
then to “elaborate teeing complexes that reflect a variety of shapes, sizes, and elevations”
then to “the modern tee, properly designed and constructed, [which] blends into the natural landscape”
then to “Today, the creativity of tee configuration knows no limitations.”

“Golf by Design” was published in 1993.  Where have you been Scott?   :)  RTJ Jr. essentially declared his father’s era “dead” 15 years ago.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2008, 01:26:39 PM »
The end of the current era of gca will be imposed from the outside.

I think it possible that we are already in the process of reverting to a pre-irrigation era. Not because we can't build irrigation systems, but because we won't be able to turn them on.

If that happens, there will be substantial changes in how courses are built, how we grass them, how they are maintained and popular perceptions of how good courses are supposed to look and play.


Bob


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2008, 04:59:21 PM »
I think the one question that has not been addressed which , IMHO defines the modern period more than any single style old architecture,  is the RE development period.  How much of the golf we saw built in the last 25 years would have been built if it were not as an amenity to sell lots?  That in itself is going to be the big change in the future.  No one is impressed with golf holes lined with housing and housing has no desire to spend the money it has spent on golf when it can market with walking trails and other green space.  Golf is going back to be built for golf.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2008, 07:32:47 PM »
Mike:

Now that is a great quote, and I agree:  Golf is going back to be built for golf.

When that happens, a lot of the excesses of the last twenty years will disappear, too.  If developers aren't going to pay millions in architect fees, we're all in for a bit of a pay cut ... and there will be much less architectural grandstanding because designers won't feel obligated to justify their fees.

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2008, 07:39:39 PM »
Amen!


... No one is impressed with golf holes lined with housing ...
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2008, 05:29:29 AM »
Hi Mike,

I like your quote too. A purists view indeed!!!!

Housing and golf have a long history though. And like all things there are good and bad examples. What Colt did at St George's Hill was good, and Wentworth OK. At Yeamans Hall you would not even know there were houses there, yet we can all name developments where the developer got greedy (or in at least it looks that way)

Eric; I am not sure where I have been  ;), but I agree with you, pundits do come out with statements like the one I made on the title of this thread. And I made it to make a point. That periods to change. That's all. As regards Old Tom though, I am not particularly a fan of his 'work'. While I respect his influence, and the way he went everywhere to lay out courses, I am not convinced his 'designs' were as good as some think. But without him, I am convinced, we would not be where we are today.... in this new 'modern' period

(PS- I wonder if Old Tom would have charged a fee if he had to design golf holes around housing??? :))


scott



Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2008, 08:12:58 AM »
The current era isn’t modern, and it’s not post-modern, either. The current era is the contemporary era, and there's a reason for it, relating to the accepted meaning of “modern” outside the golf world. The modern world, in many forms—art, building, industrial advances, mechanisation, medicine, science, food—dates from around 150 years ago. The term “modern” is a relative one, based on a mythical time line from the year dot. While never a precise point in time, it assists to differentiate from the Dark Ages. In many contexts, “modern” relates to many years ago, not necessarily what’s happening now. Contemporary, as a term, fills the bill nearly every time. In golf, for instance, the “modern” ball (Haskell) came into being around 1901. In this context, “modern” is used to differentiate the rubber-core golf ball from boxwood, feathery and Gutta Percha golf balls. Metal golf club shafts are considered a “modern” advance over hickory, even though they came in as long ago as the early 1930s. For the here and now, stick with contemporary.   

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2008, 08:22:26 AM »

Paul

A 'contemporary' Good Day to you and very well said.

Melvyn

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2008, 08:36:44 AM »
Scott

An interesting point about Old Tom’s fees, however he did undertake design close to houses and buildings. Yes certainly not in the way you look at it to day or meant in your post. But he was involved with courses by villages, towns and was one of the earliest designers to get involved with resorts course developments – Victorian Age Style.

So I would suggest that no, he would not adjust his fees, as his aim throughout his professional life was to promote golf and bring it to all who wanted to play. Not to be confused with some later Golden Age Architects who promoted themselves first and foremost and golf second (not a reflection on their design ability, more self interest).

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2008, 08:47:11 AM »
I hate the term "post-modern." Its a silly term. The most recent, or current period, is always the Modern Period. The period preceeding that one should then be re-named. While I don't know what to rename it, its not Modern. Modern is today, post-modern would then be after today how do we know what is going to happen after today?

I agree John. Modern means now. You have to get in a time machine experience post modern.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2008, 09:38:27 AM »
Mike -

Purely as a prediction about the economics of golf development, I think you are right.

But here's the thing. There's not much out there to suggest that de-linking golf desgin from residential developments automtically improves the quality of the golf design.

That is, "designing golf courses for golf" doesn't entail the notion that the quality of the designs will be better.

Evidence? The staggering number of new courses built in the 50's, 60's and 70's, few of which were tied to housing developments.

I certainly hope that stand alone designs in the future turn out to be better than most stuff built in the last couple of decades. But I'm not at all sure that will be the case.

Bob

P.S. I think - ironically - that new water, enviro and budgetary limitations will force architects to rethink a number of things and that those external constraints on the freedom of the designers will actually result in better designs.

Let me express the irony thing a bit differently. What will make for better designs is not new freedoms a designer obtains from not having to worry about house lots. Rather better and more original designs will result from the reduction in freedom that unprecedented external constraints will impose on the architect in the next couple of decades.   


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2008, 10:01:29 AM »
Bob,

Even the designs of the 50's and 60's without housing that were bad designs had a better atomosphere for golf than housing courses....you have to admit that.....even as a southern intellectual.....

as for all the external constraints we hear of.......I am so tired of hearing the words LEEDS, Eco, GREEN when most of it is just pure marketing of things that have been happening for some time by most of us.....to put in the simplest of terms.....golf courses are bermuda grass or bent grass farms.....we complicate above that.....
but once this election is over and obama and palin are in office it should be much better ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 04:53:44 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2008, 10:14:51 AM »
Bob

I believe we are forgetting one rather important element in this discussion and that is the Club or owner of the future course yet to be designed.

As the Client and ultimately the Paymaster, I feel that with the forthcoming constraints i.e. water, finance etc. will rest on their shoulders more heavily than has happened in the past. Certainly re costs, so I am certain that the selection of site will become paramount as it will have an impact on the
overall budget. The need to get water and drainage may well be minimised to certain areas like greens only, leaving the fairways to effectively fend for themselves. Design will remain within the current criteria but construction will be minimised, leaving the old saying that location, location, location is the important factor.

On this last point the Client needs to heed his architect (golfing), unless we yet again fall into the modern trap of promoting the housing first and the golf courses a poor runner-up. My understanding from what I have read makes me believe that North America will be hit hardest on all fronts related to golf.  Perhaps, the result of over ambitious developers and the need to create courses on less than desirable land. The result of money first as always – however the current problems may well be good for the game, allowing future architects more freedom and choice in their endeavours to produce a challenging course at home with itself and surroundings, a getting back to basics, I suppose – well only time will tell.

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2008, 10:36:13 AM »
Paul,

Thanks for taking part and bring your intellect to the discussion.

Melvyn, I was hoping you would pick up on my lead and fill in the details re Old Tom and his design work and fees. Thanks.

And in your last post, talk of a client minimising water usage etc. By chance we are in the planning stages of designing a new course that is doing close to what you suggest. Good location, but  limited budget (severely limited if you compare it to some new courses in the UK) and so we are basing the design on styles that were built in the 1920's. That includes limited earthworks, the use of existing natural features and only tee and green irrigation. I think the course could benefit from these limitations brought on by fiscal constraints.

Time will tell.....

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern period of design is dead.
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2008, 10:40:32 AM »
Mike -

You have always been ahead of the curve. Your minimalist design approach ought to fit the new, scaled back era well. But I didn't know you were also prescient about politics. I too look forward to an Obama - Palin administration.  

(My first point above is actually meant seriously. The kinds of courses you design are tailor made for what might be coming. You have always believed maintainability will be a very big deal and that most new designs don't give it enough attention. You are more right about that now than ever.)

Your enviro bashing aside, we are and will be operating in a world with unprecedented restrictions on water usage. That will be the case whether your favorites Obama - Palin are elected or not. And it will trigger a cascade of significant design/agro changes in the coming decades, imho.

Bob

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back