[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

So I'll agree that F&S wasn't B.C. Tillinghast... Then again i did say that "Again, I'm not saying that B.C. was F&S..." My point is that there are others who can fit the bill so to speak...

Mike, I would forget the ship search. B.C. accompanied Tilly on his 1895, 1898 & 1901 trips to St. Andrews. Tilly never travelled overseas again (he wrote this in an article a number of years later) and most likely B.C. never did either. I say that because I did a search on ancestry.com a while back to try and locate any potential voyages for B.C. & the rest. There was nothing listed... Of course today there may be more info on the site...

Once again teh answer really is staring everyone in the face. Simply go to the Philadelphia Free Library and look in the old issue of the major papers from 1895 (though this really would be too early for Tilly) to 1915 and see what person was a "Sporting Editor" for TWO of the papers... That we know is the answer to it.

Once again that's "Sporting Editor" and NOT GOLF Editor... They are two very different things...

Phil,

Two points;

1) Because there is soooooo much missing information from the Manifest history, it's tough to tell much of anything for certain.   For instance, you just missed the 1890 trip that I had uncovered a few days ago where both BC & AW came back from Liverpool, with TIlly at age 15.   To suggest that we know every time they went abroad at this point is a stretch, correct?

2) The old newspapers did not list a hierarchy of staff as today's do.    Perhaps Joe Bausch can elaborate, but from what he's seen they basically list an Editor, and Assistant Editor.   It seems that writers from each of the sports probably reported up through them, but there wasn't much in the way of bylines or printed reporting hierarchy.

by the way...Was AW much into target shooting?   

[Joe Bausch]

Phom MacYoung, I've checked both the Inquirer and Public Ledger and neither lists sports editors or sporting editors during that era.  But, let's see, Tilly was a golf editor for two major Philly newspapers.  And a golf editor is pretty much a sporting editor in my mind.

Let's see now...first you say F&S could be Travis.... no, now you agree it can't be.  Then you suggest B.C. Tillinghast.  Ah, now you agree it isn't him.  Who is next on your list?  Tilly's mother?  Or maybe Tilly had a sibling that nobody knows about?!

 

[Phil_the_Author]

Joseph, Joseph, Jospeph...

The problem is right there... "And a golf editor pretty much a sporting editor in my mind..."

You know better than to view thrings through your own "mind" or view of how things had to have been. There is a BIG difference between the "Sporting Editor" and the "Golf Editor" in those days. First of all they were the known as the "Sporting" pages in those days and therefor the Editor of all of the content was known as the SPORTING EDITOR.

His job was to oversee the ENTIRE content of the DAILY publishing of all items in those pages. Football, Baseball, Cricket, Horse Racing, etc... I'm sorry my friend, but there isn't any way that you can convince me that Tilly did that!

You sated, "Let's see now...first you say F&S could be Travis... no, now you agree it can't be. " That is correct, so give me credit rather than scorn for HAVING an OPEN mind... unlike some others! 

"Then you suggest B.C. Tillinghast.  Ah, now you agree it isn't him." Now that is wrong! I stated several times that I DIDN'T BELIEVE that he was F&S. Now you have me very concerned for how could you misunderstand and misinterpret what I said TWICE in the same post where I originally mentioned B.C.? Read them again:

"The answer is YES there was! He has been staring at everyone and right under your noses the entire time. I am not saying that this person was "Far and Sure..."

"Again, I'm not saying that B.C. was F&S, but as shown above he certainly answers everyone of your questions raised as ANOTHER PHILLY AREA GOLF WRITER who might have been him..."

Is it at all possible my dear Professer MoriarBausch, that you have the interpretive skills of Linus? That just as he saw THREE where there were only Two, you see TWO where you should only see ONE? I guess that would make me either Francis or James? Of course that would make Mike have to be Ms. Franklin and just the thought of that is too much! 
Actually I simply suggested that he was simply another Philly area golf reporter who was well-known by all of the persons involved, had access to the clubs, would have seen Merion and Pine Valley and others early on, been intimately aware of all of the "inside" gossip, travelled to St. Andrews, attended functions, was a good player, was completely aware of EVERYTHING that Tilly wrote, had total access to his photographs AND wrote for the AG under a pseudonym...

You then ask, "Who is next on your list?  Tilly's mother?" Trust me... one look at an older Lavinia Worral Davis Tillinghast would quickly convince you to never mock her , her husband or her baby A.W.!

You do ask an interesting question, "Or maybe Tilly had a sibling that nobody knows about?!" No, he didn't, but he DID have an UNCLE. B.C.'s older brother and he was the manager of the Market Street branch of the Tillinghast Rubber Goods Store...

Considering the family he came from I wouldn't be at all surprised if he played golf and HIS SONS played golf and... Nope, I don't think we should go there!

Lavinia Worral Davis

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Do you really believe there was someone on the planet in 1911 besides Tilly who knew all the doings and people in the Philly and Atlantic City golf scenes, as well as the Poconos and Scranton area and who wrote for two different Philly papers and who happened to write two almost verbatim reviews of Merion both published a few months after playing in the dead of winter 1913?

There was much less evidence against OJ SImpson! 

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Yes... and he went by the pseudonym "Far and Sure."

[TEPaul]

Phil:

In this thread you stated that there were a couple of instances in which Tillie admitted he was the writer behind the pen name "Hazard", and that the April 1918 American Golfer column in which he reports that "Duffer" was B.C. Tillinghast, the gentleman who had contributed to the column, was his (A.W. Tillinghast's) father, is one of those instances.

I'm wondering what other "Hazard" articles you think that pen name writer admitted he was A.W. Tillinghast because I do not think Tillie did admit in that April 1918 "Hazard" article that he was A.W. Tillinghast, at least certainly not to readers who had no idea who B.C. Tillinghast was or that his son was a golf course architect. In a number of articles Tillie, as the pen name writer "Hazard" or perhaps even "Far and Sure", did occasionally refer to A.W. Tillinghast, perhaps as a golfer or even a golf architect but he always did so in the third person (apparently consciously disassociating Tillinghast from the pen name writer). That is essentially the most common trick of a pen name writer if he ever writes about or refers to himself. If he did not want readers who did not know him to suspect who he really was that is what he would continue to do. If he wanted readers who did not know him to understand who he really was he would've simply referred to himself in his article in the first person but he did not do that in that April 1918 “Hazard” article.
 Again, to understand this type of literary trick from the point of view of the pen name writer we need to look at the issue of the reader who did not suspect who he was and not from our perspective who’re trying to investigate who he may’ve been.

Obviously, there is loads of transparency in this kind of literary trick or game because we must understand that anyone Tillie knew or knew him or who he ever actually interviewed or questioned for information under his own name or in person (this is why "first hand" (being present at an event) is so important for us to now know if we are investigating whether he could've written under the pen name "Far and Sure" too) were of course going to know his identity, and particularly when they saw the subject he was interviewing and writing about in print.

To me this is just an example of some of the nuances of some of us today appreciating the way things actually worked at the time and in a contemporaneous way when we view them now historically.

Tillie mentioned in one article (or one of the pen names did) that there were probably about 5,000 golfers in Philadelphia at a particular time. By that he seemed to suggest that may be the expected readership of these kinds of articles or at least those that had some interest in the subject. How many of them knew Tillie personally, were interviewed by him under his own name at any point, and therefore had to know the identity behind the pen name? It's impossible to put a number on that question but I would have to say it may've been less than 10% of them and it seems to me that was the trick of pen name writing and perhaps its very point.

Peter Pallota raised an interesting question and point earlier in this thread that the world of golf back then was pretty small compared to today so who really did these pen name writers think they were tricking "identity-wise" with this literary pseudonym game, and secondly, why did they and their magazines even bother?

I submit to write in the first person would only help to make both the writer and those he ever interviewed and who knew him look slightly self-serving if the general readership totally understood how they well they knew each other or even that they knew each other at all.

Perhaps I should’ve put this post on the pen name thread because even if I may be wrong about this it seems to me this type of literary pseudonym game basically helps to make the interest in this kind of subject look bigger, at least perceptively than it really was or may’ve been and clearly that is going to play right into the hands of what a magazine such as American Golfer is basically trying to accomplish! 

[Mike_Cirba]

There has been little question that the "American Golfer" writer known as "Hazard" was A.W. Tillinghast.

Yet, we have seen some debate here whether "Far and Sure" was Tilly, as well.

As we've seen in this thread, in the January 1913 issue of American Golfer, "Far and Sure" does a review of the new course at Merion, followed by a funny story about someone posting a divot on the wall of the clubhouse which is as follows;

In the Merion clubhouse, on the
bulletin board, hangs a withered thing
which measures about six inches
across. Under it is this legend:
"This divot was NOT replaced."
Like the gruesome severed head of
the Chinese malefactor, it is exposed
to view as a warning to others. The
laws of man say "Thou shalt not
kill," but we go farther than the mere
writing of the law for we hang the
murdered. It is ethical and an unwritten
law of golf to replace divots.
Our green committees decree that
"divots must be replaced," but why
stop after the sign is painted? Would
it not have a salutary effect if not
only the mute evidence of the crime
but also other exhibits should hang in
the clubs' chambers of horror? For
example—a bag of clubs under which
might be written:
"This kit belonged to O. Nevermindit,
once a member of this club, but he would
not replace his divots."
During the year I recall seeing a
sign (I think it was at Wheaton)
which read:
"A fine of $5 will be imposed on anyone
who neglects to replace a divot."
At five a throw it's expensive.


We've just seen in Joe Bausch's new thread Tillinghast first writing about the new course at Pine Valley in January 1913 in the Philadelphia papers.   More about that shortly.


In the Febrary 1913 American Golfer, Tilly, now writing as "Hazard" a month later wrote the following;

Mr. Robert W. Lesley, president of
the Golf Association, of Philadelphia,
told me two very good stories, suggested
by the reference to the Merion
divot in last month's issue of THE
AMERICAN GOLFER.
Not long ago he was walking over
the course and he came across a gentleman
who was thoroughly incensed.
"Just look at these divots, Mr. Lesley,"
he exclaimed, "that pair ahead are
knocking them out wholesale, and
never replacing one." It was obvious
that the "pair ahead" were taking
many strokes and their wake was
clearly indicated by the scalped spots
along the fairway. Mr. Lesley picked
up one of the chunks and started off
like a Filipino head hunter. Approaching
the culprits he said, "Your
pardon, gentlemen, I am sorry to interrupt
your match, but I must request
that you observe our rule, which is
posted in the club house, and replace
these divots," and he held up for their
inspection the proof of their guilt.
The player who was nearest, regarded
it with interest, not unmixed with
curiosity and then calmly replied, "Ah!
Is that a divot? I have often wondered
what a divot really was."


Then Tilly as "Hazard" writes on another topic;


I remember hearing of an old
darkey who was supposed to be the
owner of a particularly vicious dog
which had managed to sink its teeth
into someone's leg. Naturally he was
blamed for the animal's sin but he
stoutly insisted that his dog could not
have been guilty for two reasons. "In
de fust place," he said, "ma dorg yaint
got no teef, en in de secon' place ah
yaint got no dorg." Last month I attempted
an analysis of the new Merion
course and now I wish to speak of
another but I find it particularly difficult
to do so because there is no
course—yet..
To come quickly to the point this
district is to have another course and
I anticipate that it will be one of which
we will be proud. To Mr. George A.
Crump we must give the credit of the
discovery for he found it as he chanced
to glance through the window of a
rapidly moving train. This particular
tract was different from the rather
monotonous south Jersey flat country,
yet there it was with beautiful undulations
and hillocks. Mr. Crump's first
thought was the connection of this
tract with golf. None but an old
golfer would have done so for as it is
it looks very unlike a golf course.
Scrub trees and underbrush cover it
and the white sand shows everywhere.
It is just as it was three years ago
when Mr. Crump first saw it, but since
then it has been purchased and plans
are being made to convert it into what
I believe will be the best course in this
district. The organization of the club
is in the hands of Mr. Joseph S. Clark,
ex-committeeman of the U. S. G. A.;
Mr. Howard W. Perrin, president of
the Pennsylvania State Golf Association,
and Mr. William Poultney
Smith, one of the keenest golfers that
I know of.
The new course is to be planned to
meet the most exacting requirements
of the modern game. It will not be
for the novice or the timid player, and
no effort will be made to include them
in the two hundred which will limit the
membership. The leading players of
the section want this course to be a
good, hard test of their games and
worthy of championship events. I
have gone over the tract with Mr.
Crump and I have never seen ground
which looked more attractive in my
golf eye. It is quite good enough to
make one instantly enthusiastic.
Those gentle rolls seem to have been
placed for only one purpose—golf.
The soil is sandy and good and it
should yield a fine turf. Very fortunately
there is water there, too, and
some good water-hazards can be made.
It will not be a gigantic task to clear
as much of it as may be desired for
the fairways and the rest will be permitted
to remain as it is as winter protection.
A winter course was the first
thought, for it is well known that
south Jersey offers exceedingly good
play when our Pennsylvania courses
are impossible, and every week-end
finds enthusiasts making for the Atlantic
City and Lakewood with their
golf kits.
The proposed course is located about
15 miles from Camden, close by the
tracks of the Atlantic City division of
the Reading Railroad.
It will be interesting to follow the
development of this course because I
am convinced that it will be a great
one. Nature has presented a rare opportunity
to the golf architect and the
men who will plan are all well-known
players with every qualification that
is necessary in work of this kind.


Finally, just like "Far and Sure" the year prior, Tilly as Hazard decides to regale the reader with some of his little ditties from the annual Golf Association of Philadelphia dinner;

The parodies which were prepared
for the golfers' dinner, at Merion, by
Mr. A. W. Tillinghast, were extremely
popular and although some of them
were local in character, there were
others which would interest golfers
generally. With this in mind I have
picked several from the song sheets
and include them here:
HUNT AROUND.
Tune—Chorus—"Be My Little Baby Bumble
Bee."
Where can my lost baby bramble be?
(Hunt around! Hunt around! Keep a'-
huntin' 'round.)
Boy, you're not a bit of use to me.
(Can't you see? Can't you see? Can't
you see?)
Always spend your happy hours
Gazing round and picking flowers
And never where you really ought to be.
(Hurry up ! Hurry up ! Hurry up !)
Oh, yes! you can very humble be.
(Look around! Look around! keep a'-
lookin' 'round.)
Take another look around that tree.
(T'other tree! T'other tree! T'other
tree!)
Keep the hunt a'goin' hot—
It's the last "Zodie" I have got;
Now where in thunder can my baby bramble
be?
DREAMING.
Tune—"Oh! What a Beautiful Dream."
Oh! the golf balls that we will be buying
next year
Will be fifty cents, they say,
And they won't wear out in eighteen holes,
Like the balls we get to-day.
With most any old club you will drive
them a mile,
From a mashie they'll drop dead,
And if near the pin, they'll go dropping in—
Or, at least, so it is said.
Oh! what a beautiful dream,
Beautiful dream, you seem.
Can you imagine this fifty-cent ball?
We want to try it and buy it, that's all.
Oh! what a beautiful dream,
Beautiful dream, you seem.
But yet somehow I feel
That it cannot be real—
It's a beautiful, beautiful dream.
GOLFING DAYS.
Tune—"Heidelberg."
Come, golfers all, a song we'll raise,
Now fill your glasses, men,
And pledge the days— those golfing days
When we shall meet again.
May irons bite true! May drives sail free!
And when the match is done,
I'll drink your health, and long may we
Be golfers, every one.
I'll drink your health, and long may we
Be golfers, every one.

[Joe Bausch]

Dear MikeCirba,

     Give me a chance and I'll explain away this one too.

Sincerely,
Phom MacYoung

[Mike_Cirba]

Dear Phom,

I'll be looking forward to that complementary round at Bethpage and it sure will be interesting seeing you in that "Joe the Burbeck in '36" t-shirt.   

Sincerely,
Fart'n 4 Sure

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike & Joe,

It is quite obvious that the two of you are not reading these articles but smoking them...

Don't worry... as Dan Ackroyd in character as Jimmy Carter once said to a caller on a radio show bit... "Chill out... give it a few hours... have a brewski... you'll be okay...

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Now what's wrong??!?   

[TEPaul]

Phil:

For the life of me I just cannot understand why you're so resistant to the possibility that "Far and Sure" could've been Tilly. Is it only because you think he was too busy in 1911 and 1912 or that you've heretofore stated that? If that is the case you're trying to make, can you really make the case that he was less busy in the years following 1911 and 1912 (in which he wrote continuously as "Hazard").

Furthermore, you've already thrown out the possibility that one man (B.G. Tillinghast) could've used two pen names with American Golfer, so why are you still so resistant that A.W. Tillinghast could have also?

Furthermore, some analogy to Dan Ackroyd and Jimmy Carter is doing nothing at all as to credible historical investigation and analysis of this subject. From everything that has been put forward on here on the identity of "Far and Sure" it sure looks to me like the most logical assumption of all to date is that it was Tilly.

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Ok...let's discuss strange coincidences 7496, 7497, 7498, and 7499, shall we?  


7496 - Joe Bausch's Tillinghast article from the January 1913 "Philadelphia Record" refers to Riverton in NJ as a course where golfers play in winter, ("Riverton is remarkably good in winter...") which is about the same distance from the shore as the course going to be built at Pine Valley.  

"Far and Sure"'s January 1913 American Golfer article talks about Riverton being a surprisingly delightful place for winter golf, even though it's inland because of the nature of the soil on that side of the Delaware River ("When real winter conditions prevail, it is surprising to find Riverton in such good shape. The Jersey soil quickly takes up the moisture and play there is open practically all winter..").


7497 - In January 1913, "Far and Sure" in American Golfer tells the story of a divot hanging in the Merion clubhourse as an example to offenders, comparing it to the "gruesome severed head of the Chinese malefactor".  

In February 1913, "Hazard", who you have confirmed is Tillinghast, states that as a result of the prior month's story, Robert Lesley has shared with him two additional humorous divot stories, and Tilly uses terminology like "Filipino Head Hunter" in relaying Lesley's stories.    Why would Lesley have contacted Tillinghast about the divot story if Tillinghast wasn't "Far and Sure"?    Why wouldn't he have contacted the "real" "Far and Sure"??


7498 - In January 1913, "Far and Sure" writes an analytical review of the new Merion course for American Golfer.

In February 1913, as a lead-in to telling us about the new course at Pine Valley,  "Hazard" writing for the same magazine tell us, "Last month I attempted an analysis of the new Merion course and now I wish to speak of another..."

Now Phil.   Put yourself in the position of a loyal "American Golfer" reader who receives the magazine each month excitedly reading each word.   WHY would Tilly tell American Golfer readers that he had attempted to analyze the new Merion course the previous month if he wasn't referring to the article he had written IN THAT SAME MAGAZINE?!  The only review of Merion in American Golfer the previous month was under the non de plume "Far and Sure".   Why would Tillinghast have referred to the Merion review at all to his American Golfer readers if he wasn't talking about the review that appeared in American Golfer??  Was Tilly simply trying to confuse the heck out of his readers??   


7499 - In February 1912, "Far and Sure", reporting on the annual Golf Association of Philadelphia dinner, takes the liberty of mentioning AW TIllinghast and the little entertaining golf-related ditties that he created to the tunes of popular songs, and then proceeds to copy not one, not two, not three, but FOUR of Tilly's ditties verbatim for the reader.

In February 1913, "Hazard", reporting on the annual Golf Association of Philadelphia dinner, takes the liberty of mentioning AW Tillinghast and the little entertaining golf-related ditties that he created to the tunes of popular songs, and then proceeds to copy not one, not two, not three, but FOUR of Tilly's ditties verbatim for the reader.



Phil.....Will I gag when you show me that new bunker on the 9th hole at Bethpage Black?    

Seriously though, Phil...I have to reiterate Tom Paul's question.   Why the resistance to acknowledge what is becoming increasingly obvious with each new article found?

Against overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you continue to cling to the idea that Tilly couldn't have been "Far and Sure".

What evidence would you present at this juncture in rebuttal?
  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, "For the life of me I just cannot understand why you're so resistant to the possibility that "Far and Sure" could've been Tilly. Is it only because you think he was too busy in 1911 and 1912 or that you've heretofore stated that?"

NO IT ISN'T!

You also stated, "Furthermore, you've already thrown out the possibility that one man (B.G. Tillinghast) could've used two pen names with American Golfer, so why are you still so resistant that A.W. Tillinghast could have also?"

NO I DID NOT!

I mentioned B.C. because Mike insists that ONLY TILLY could have been the one who knew all these people, was privy to conversations, was at many of the events mentioned, had written for AG, had access to using his photos, etc... He is wrong and I mentioned B.C. to make the point that there are others who have those qualifications.

IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH where I mentioned him it was followed with the statement that I DON'T THINK B.C. WAS FAR & SURE! I followed that up by reiterating toward the end of the post that B.C. wasn't Far and Sure.

You followed this up by stating that I had made this statement and I posted directly that I had not, once again quoting from my original post.

For the final time Tom, I NEVER said that B.C. was Far and Sure and never even intimated it...

The problem is Mike & Joe are convinced that Tilly was F&S, and where that is their privilege to conclude so, they have no true evidence to back it up at all.

Consider again, that Tilly NEVER said he was "Far and True." He DID state several times that he was "Hazard" and he answered questions sent into the magazine that were addressed to "Hazard" with his own name A.W.T.

"Far and Sure" never said that HE was Tilly and NEVER answered letters for "Hazard."

The reason for the reference to Dan Ackroyd is the latest set of "coincidences" that Mike is passing off as proof... Sorry, but the fact that two articles contain the same information, people mentions, SIMILAR yet differing anecdotes, and quotations, does NOT mean they were written by the same writer using two different names. It means that TWO DIFFERENT WRITERS wrote them.

If that were not the case, then there is one guy at the U.S. Open media tent who is awfully busy because all those articles containing stories from the Open with the same exact quotes, way of telly what was seen and writing it in the 1st person MUST mean that they are all from the SAME hand!

Just as you would correctly state that such an idea is absurd, Tilly would say the same thing to this same reasoning used by Mike.

Secondly, and this is no little point either, but a strong argument USING THIS SAME LINE OF REASONING was used already by Mike & Joe in concluding that "Joe Bunker" was Tilly! That was wrong as well and is accepted as such.

The boy who cried wolf really does need one true sighting of a wolf in order to be believed... so too with this.

The reason for stating that tilly was too busy during those years was to give a practical answer that you could see. The fact is that Tilly became too busy with his design work to do a lot of writing that he really wanted to do and even mentioned in articles that this was the case. For example, when he stopped writing for the Philadelphia Record he wrote that it was specifically due to his busy design work. 

The bottom line is that there really is no reason to conclude that Tilly was "Far and Sure." The supposition was made because some today have concluded there to be "similarities in writing style."

Unfortunately that is not anywhere near enough, and in this case not even correct as a point, to give actual consideration to it being FACT RATHER THAN SPECULATION.

Finally, through all the years since, no one has believed that Tilly was "far and Sure" or that any of those who wrote for the American Golfer did so under more than one pseudonym. Indeed, and most important of all, NOT A SINGLE PERSON OF THE DAY the magazines were published made that claim or believed it.

MIke, the question of the bunker on the 9th is a discussion for another thread and another day...





   

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Frankly, I'm not that interested in carrying on some detailed argument about "You said/I said."

The point is even if there is not absolute proof that Tilly wrote as "Far and Sure", it most certainly seems like the overwhelming weight of evidence produced recently from heretofore unconsidered newspaper articles suggests that he did.

You say he never said or admitted he wrote as "Far and Sure." So what? Most people who write under pen names probably never admit they did. The most certainly does not mean they couldn't have or didn't.

You also say that Tilly admitted he wrote as Hazard? You cited the article in which he mentions the death of B.G. Tillinghast in 1918, as an example. I don't think so, Phil. It may seem that way to you and me and others on here who believe "Hazard" was Tilly but I very much doubt it would have in 1918 to the reader of those articles who did not know Tilly. After all do you really think all the supposed 5,000 of them that Tilly once mentioned as the maximum readship understood that A.W. Tillinghast was a golf course architect and connected that as B.G. Tillinghast's son? In that article he did not actually say he---ie "Hazard" was A.W. Tillinghast.

You mentioned he admitted it in a few other articles as "Hazard". I wonder if he really did. What were they?

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Who even looked at these articles between 1912 and 2000?  To suggest that nobody heretofore made the connection is simply because this stuff wasn't generally available in digital form, with high-speed search capabilities.

Who did this type of digging about golf course architecture prior to nerds like us in recent years??  

Tilly had one or two courses he was working on in the timeframe in question.   As a prolific writer throughout his lifetime, he sent lengthy WEEKLY golf articles to the Philadelphia Record from 1913 to 1916, as his career was picking up.  He was definitely not "too busy" to pen a monthly article for American Golfer in 1911-13, with only Shawnee and perhaps Abington as ongoing architecture projects.

I also want to remind you of what actually happened around the entire "Joe Bunker" speculation.  

At the time Joe Bausch found those articles, as well as the "Billy Bunker" articles, we sent them to you via email because of your extensive knowledge of Tillinghast's writings, and asked you for your expert opinion.

You wrote back telling us that you believed that Joe Bunker WAS A.W. Tillinghast, and later speculated that Billy Bunker writing later was probably Tilly's father.

A few days later you changed your mind, because you came across an article where Joe Bunker mentioned that George Crump had seen the land for Pine Valley hunting on horseback, and you knew Tillinghast had previously written that Crump had seen the land from the railroad.

I personally don't see how both of these stories are mutually exclusive, but we haven't really discussed it since.   I just don't want there to be an impression left here that we're idly speculating, or "crying wolf", because we're not the one's who originally drew the Joe Bunker-Tillinghast parallel...you did.  

But...back to "Far and Sure".

I respect your opinion a great deal Phil, but I don't agree with it here.  

[TEPaul]

"Finally, through all the years since, no one has believed that Tilly was "far and Sure" or that any of those who wrote for the American Golfer did so under more than one pseudonym. Indeed, and most important of all, NOT A SINGLE PERSON OF THE DAY the magazines were published made that claim or believed it."


Phil:

That does not mean a thing to me unless and until you can show any of us one scintilla of evidence that anyone or any group of people EVER went to the extent to figure out who wrote under these various pen names that we are today on here.

Having talked about these American Golfer magazine pen names with Bob Labbance in years past it seems that he (the author of the only Travis biography (as Travis was the Editor of AG)) assumed that "Far and Sure" was probably Travis. There is no question that Bob did not do the kind of in-depth newspaper research that Joe Bausch has done recently (probably because it was not as available then as it is now) and consequently Bob never really appreciated how unlikely it would've been for Travis who was generally in New York to have constantly written the details of Philadelphia golf and architecture as reported under the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" section that both "Far and Sure and "Hazard" wrote for.

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

I just went back through the history of our discussion around "Far and Sure" from another thread, and it's interesting to see the evolution of your reasons for believing that he couldn't be Tillinghast.   From the other thread;



"Also, in the specifics of the January 1913 article you mention, "Far and Sure" begins by relating an adventure on (ironically enough) an ocean voyage a number of years before to America from what appears to be the U.K."

"In it he mentions severe problems to the extent that he refered to the ocean liner as being "crippled," and making little headway under sail. Also, he writes that "we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut with a knife..." surrounded them. He stated that they finally reached the harbor of St. John's in Newfoundland where they were able to make repairs."

"This never happened to Tilly. We know this for a variety of reasons. First, Tilly never went overseas alone, always taking his family (1890-1? with parents, 1895, '98 & 01 with wife and daughter and parents) with him. Not only does the writer not mention family as Tilly did in almost every article of the many he wrote about his trips to the U.K. but, more importantly, his family is unaware of this as ever having happened.  "

We've since learned that Macdonald went abroad in 1890 with his family.  It's also been impossible to confirm or dispute any other possible ship problems he may have experienced because the majority of the trips overseas that we know Tillinghast took have missing manifests, so we can't tell whether those ships experienced problems or not.

"The article is also complimentary of Macdonald. In 1938 when C.B. died, Tilly wrote an obituary about him in the Pacific Coast Golfer Magazine in which he mentions how he had a fundamental difference with "Charley" in his design philosophy and belief in the over-riding importance of using templates rather than letting the terrain dictate the design. He said that he was especially vociferous about this in his early years as a designer. "

In 1910 I can't imagine anyone having much in the way of difficulty with Macdonald from a golf architecture standpoint, as his NGLA was being hailed, rightly so, as the best course in America.   Besides, I'm not sure what exactly the article says that is so incredibly complimentary of Macdonald...it almost takes him to task for saying that Merion will be the best new inland course in America, saying essentially...yeah, yeah...sure...that's what everyone says.

When "Far and Sure" said that Macdonald "had been of great assistance in an advisory way", wasn't he just parroting what the Merion Committee said and likely told him?  According to the WIlson brothers' reports, Macdonald was indeed of great assistance to their efforts, as they both outlined in writing.   I don't think this was refective on complimenting Macdonald's design style, but simply his cooperation and acting as an educational resource.


"Now this has no effect whatsoever on your hypothesis regarding Merion's creation, but "Far and Sure" was Travis and not Tilly."

We've since proven that "Far and Sure" could NOT have been Travis.

"Another point, "Far and Sure" mentions that it was "Not until a month ago did I find the opportunity to see it..." yet he also states that it was "two years ago..." that CB told him about it."

"Is it reasonable that Tilly would have seen the course for the very first time just one month before? If the article was written in October of 1912 (as seems a reasonable guestimate), that would mean that tilly would have first stepped onto the course in September of 1912, yet hadn't he written of its design and construction as one having seen it well before this?"

"That alone proves that "Far and Sure" could not be Tilly."

We've since learned from the American Cricketer article that Tillinghast had indeed not seen the course from the time he viewed the pre-construction plans in April 1911 until September 1912 when the course opened for play, although he had received reports in the interim that were very optimistic and had been told by CB Macdonald that Merion would have one of the best inland courses he had ever seen....which are all points exactly corresponding with "Far and Sure"'s documented experiences.

"Far and Sure" could not have been Tillinghast because of differences in his recollection of how George Crump found the land for Pine Valley. (paraphrased)

"Far and Sure" never commented on how Crump found the land.   You were mistakenly thinking of our earlier "Joe Bunker" discussion.

Tillinghast was too busy in 1911 and 1912 to be "Far and Sure".  (paraphrased)

Tillinghast's career really took off after WWI and yet we also know he continued to write extensively even well into the 1930s.   In 1911/12 he had very few courses under his architectural belt.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

A few corrections:

#1 - You wrote, "we're not the one's who originally drew the Joe Bunker-Tillinghast parallel...you did..."

That is NOT TRUE! Joe Bausch came across the the "Joe Bunker" articles and emailed me with copies. (Joe may even have some of these emails) He did so because HE surmised that Tilly had written them. My FIRST response was that I wasn't sure. Several days later, after reading through a number of them and seeing the similarities in style I agreed that "Joe Bunker" may have been Tilly & wondered, if this were thrue, if "Billy Bunker" may have been B.C.

When I read his version of how Crump discovered the land for Pine Valley it was immediately clear that he could NOT be Tilly as Tilly had written a completely different version from this. I then stated categorically that i didn't believe they were the same.

While this was going on, you read a number of these articles and agreed with Joe's interpretation and tried to convince me that i was wrong to change my mind on it. We all agreed to disagree.  

#2 - You wrote, "Tilly had one or two courses he was working on in the timeframe in question..."

INCORRECT! As you will see in the timeline that is part of my coming Volume II of Tilly's life and work, he had a LOT more work in progress during 1912-13 and all the way through the teens than has been known till now. Unfortunately you're going to have to wait on the book... hopefully you'll trust my honor on this.  

#3- You continued, "As a prolific writer throughout his lifetime, he sent lengthy WEEKLY golf articles to the Philadelphia Record from 1913 to 1916, as his career was picking up.  He was definitely not "too busy" to pen a monthly article for American Golfer in 1911-13, with only Shawnee and perhaps Abington as ongoing architecture projects..."

Incorrect. He was ONLY able to pen those articles for the record because he had extensive help in doing so. He was far too busy to gather the information he discussed in them and was COMPLETELY dependent on his father, B.C., to get it for him. Otherwise, how could he write articles about Philadelphia happenings that occurred while he was in Texas, Oklahoma, Florida and California?

#3 - You wrote, "Who even looked at these articles between 1912 and 2000?  To suggest that nobody heretofore made the connection is simply because this stuff wasn't generally available in digital form, with high-speed search capabilities... Who did this type of digging about golf course architecture prior to nerds like us in recent years??"

Quite simply, the READERS OF THE DAY, specifically THOSE WHO WERE WRITTEN ABOUT! Can you name any single person who ever said, mentioned or even hinted that Tilly, "Hazard" and "Far and Sure" were one and the same? Of course not! By the way, no one needed to do "this type of digging.. prior to nerds like" because there was no reason to.

Mike, I really do respect your right to this opinion and actually love the passion behind it. Heck, I even feel the same toward Professor Bausch!

I think we should be proud of what we are and proudly shout, "Nerds of the Golf World Rise Up even if We Don't Think Alike!"

As to avoid another similar post... You just posted the following, "Tillinghast's career really took off after WWI and yet we also know he continued to write extensively even well into the 1930s.   In 1911/12 he had very few courses under his architectural belt..."

As I stated above, this is one area where you will have to trust my research claims with what will be published in Volume II.

[TEPaul]

"Quite simply, the READERS OF THE DAY, specifically THOSE WHO WERE WRITTEN ABOUT! Can you name any single person who ever said, mentioned or even hinted that Tilly, "Hazard" and "Far and Sure" were one and the same? Of course not! By the way, no one needed to do "this type of digging.. prior to nerds like" because there was no reason to."


Phil:

That you would even think to ask a question like that (why has noone previously, and certainly from that time  suggested who those pen name writers were?) as some evidence that Tilly was not the one writing as "Far and Sure" tells me you may be missing about half the point and purpose and basic literary trick behind "pen name" writing.

Of course those who Tilly knew and who both he and those pen names wrote about knew the identities of all the pen name writers (how in the world do you think they could be interviewed and written about by those pen name writers for article content and not know their real identity? ) but it was most definitely NOT in their interest either to go around telling others what the pen name writer's real identity was.

To me that clearly explains why we've never seen that kind of admission in print from others (except perhaps by mistake as Behr once did with A.C. Croome) and we probably never will from back in that day! The SUBJECTS (people) who those pen name writers knew well and who knew the identities of the pen name writers were as much carrying on those pen names guises as the pen name writers were.

If the reasons for that haven't yet occured to you I hope they will now.

[Joe Bausch]

#3- You continued, "As a prolific writer throughout his lifetime, he sent lengthy WEEKLY golf articles to the Philadelphia Record from 1913 to 1916, as his career was picking up.  He was definitely not "too busy" to pen a monthly article for American Golfer in 1911-13, with only Shawnee and perhaps Abington as ongoing architecture projects..."

Incorrect. He was ONLY able to pen those articles for the record because he had extensive help in doing so. He was far too busy to gather the information he discussed in them and was COMPLETELY dependent on his father, B.C., to get it for him. Otherwise, how could he write articles about Philadelphia happenings that occurred while he was in Texas, Oklahoma, Florida and California?

I've looked at those times in the spring of 1913 and I believe 1914 where Tilly was in Florida.  Guess what?  His Philly Record articles state that "this article is coming from Florida" and proceeds to have much about his time in Florida.  I even remember reading in one the other day how he laments that he can't keep up with the local happenings since he is not in Philly.

[TEPaul]

I think the question should be asked again---why would a particular "pen name" or pseudonym writer bother to write under more than one pseudonym and why would an editor of a magazine perhaps even encourage him to do that?

I started a separate thread on pen name and pseudonym writing and writers but it is now in the back pages.

The reasons a writer writing for a particular golf periodical would do that (write under a pseudonym or more than one of them) and why an editor would encourage it seem pretty obvious to me. The reasons that an editor and the pen name writers as well as those they interviewed who knew their identities would strive to continue to maintain that guise (what the pseudonym's real identity was) seem really obvious too. It seems they all did a pretty good job with that literary "pen name" trick as well as maintaining the guise (who the identities were) into posterity considering how these threads have been going over the last few weeks! 

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil and I have agreed to take our debate offline rather than give the mistaken impression that we aren't simply friends passionately debating a point of disagreement, which is sometimes how things can appear in cold print. 

We've also agreed that if additional evidence surfaces, we'll bring it back here for everyone's dissemination.

 

[TEPaul]

Mike:

That's probably a good idea at this point. It seems like Phil is demanding that this needs to be proven. Considering that that may be something a really clever pen name writer, and his editor would strive to prevent and perhaps for much time to come is probably something we all should consider carefully.

We should also consider that this pseudonym game was basically just that---a literary game. It's not as if those pen name writers were attempting to use false identities to protect life and limb as a spy might. Essentially it was just a game and all the multiple indications thoughout all those articles that have been uncovered recently from all these various newspapers and magazines that Tilly apparently wrote for at one time or another, really does amuse me anyway. The clues really are there en masse for those willing to do this kind of investigation and analysis which is probably the very thing he counted on most of the readers who really didn't know him to never even attempt to do.

One indication really convinces me---and that was that dinner list of a Golf Association meeting. No one could possibly have written the detail on that event who was not on that dinner list and it seems to me even if it could have been some others on that dinner list not a single one of them could've been as likely the pen name writer "Far and Sure" as Tilly (who was on that dinner list).

[Mike_Cirba]

As I mentioned a few days ago, Phil and I had agreed to take our debate regarding the evidence that "Far and Sure" was A.W. Tillinghast off-line to help foster a general tone of cooperative research and general amenity on this site.

At that time, I also mentioned that if further evidence surfaced, we agreed that we would bring it here for everyone's dissemination. 

In that spirit, please consider the following series of sequential writings in "American Golfer".   It is undisputed that the writer using the pen-name "Hazard" was indeed Tilly, but I've also contended that the writer by the name of "Far and Sure" was Tilly, as well, with both pen names almost assuredly receiving help from Tilly's father, particularly as related to local competitions and general club happenings.

To wit;

Jan 1913 American Golfer - By "Far and Sure"   (the article can be found at the following link;  http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag93m.pdf  -  (note three things...the "arrows" on the pictures of the course in the Merion review, the pictures of Shawnee, and "Far and Sure"'s promise of an imminent review of the extensive changes to Philadelphia Country Club in a future issue of American Golfer)

The modernizing of the course of
the Philadelphia Country Club is progressing
rapidly. The very open fall
has been most fortunate and Mr. E.
K. Bispham has been making the most
of it. Day after day he has been out
there, surrounded by laborers and
carts. The remodeling of the old fifth
has made necessary a tremendous
amount of digging and hauling. The
old fourteenth has been changed about
the green after blasting, dumping and
filling. The new pits here are wonderfully
well made and, as specimens of
artificial hazards merging naturally to
their surroundings, they are without
equal. In the near future I shall attempt
a critical review of the entire
work.

May 1913 American Golfer - By "Hazard"   (the article can be found at the following link;  http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag101l.pdf

The work at the
Philadelphia Country Club has been
very extensive and the changes have
added much to the game at Bala and
in the near future we will take pleasure
in illustrating the extent of the
changes. Mr. Bispham, as usual, has
been personally directing the work
and on the several occasions when
I have been out there it was to find
him in the midst of laborers and dump
carts.


July 1913 American Golfer - By "Hazard"   (the article can be found at the following link;  http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag103i.pdf    - Please note the picture with the "arrow" on page 5 of 10, and compare against the pictures with "arrow" in the January 1913 "Far and Sure" Merion review)

THE NEW WORK AT THE PHILADELPHIA
COUNTRY CLUB.
The reconstruction of the first half
of the Country Club Course is most
thorough and attractive, but there has
been no change in the journey home,
which is regrettable. However, it is
difficult to see how the last nine can
be rearranged for the ground is limited
in scope. Individually the holes
are good, particularly the tenth and
the home hole, but they do not offer
sufficient variation. It is "drive and
approach" time and again, and now
the last half suffers sadly by comparison
with the other.
The new teeing-ground on the first
is good and a big improvement, but
I think that because of its greater
elevation the drives will be quite as
far-reaching as from the lower and
shorter one. However, the new arrangement
is better. The old second
remains, but the third is new, and a
mighty good one. The former double
green of second and sixth is given
entirely to the second and the new
third teeing-ground is placed on the
old sixth green. The play is to the
former fourth green and the sloping
fairway invites a cautiously placed
short drive if the player has not got
the length to get home—and even
then the drive must be placed. The
lengthening of the old fifth, which is
now the fourth, and the new formation
is excellent and natural. This
work deserves the highest praise. The
fifth is to a new green, well made and
placed, and this too may be reached
by a long tee shot. These three successive
holes which offer so much reward
to the hard driver may be criticised
a bit, but they are all good holes.
The sixth, a two shotter, is the former
seventh, but the seventh, a short one,
is entirely new, with a curiously fashioned
green like a pinch-bottle with
the neck in front. The lengthening
of the eighth is capital. Not only is
the teeing-ground placed back, but the
green extended to the old third. The
guarding bunkers have been greatly
enlarged. A few new driving pits are
encountered on the ninth but otherwise
the situation is the same. This
hole is a very fine one and one of the
best of them all.
The greens are rounding to nicely
and the work in every respect has
been handled in a most capable manner.
I should say that the first nine
at Bala now rank ahead of any in
Philadelphia, but collectively the second
nine keep the course from being
a truly great one.


As an editorial comment, I would simply ask how many golf writers in the country were particularly concerned about "artificial hazards merging naturally into their surroundings" in 1913?      It might be stating the obvious but I would mention that no other review or even mention of the ongoing work at Philadelphia Country Club took place in "American Golfer" between the blurbs of "Far and Sure" and "Hazard" cited above.

I would also note as a reality check that the long-promised review of the changes at Philadelphia Country Club when finally delivered seem quite hurried in form and prose, and in nowhere near the depth of other similar, earlier articles by either "Far and Sure" or "Hazard".   It's almost as if he was getting extremely busy, or rushed to press, and wanted to get the promised article to print, although it is clearly lacking in the type of entertaining substance that Till...er..ah...Hazard provided in earlier analysis.

However...to the main point of this post;

Last week, I showed where "Hazard" in February 1913 mentioned that in the previous month he had written an analytical review of the new Merion course.  The writer who did the Merion piece in the January 1913 issue of American Golfer was "Far and Sure".
   
Now, we see the same situation in reverse where "Far and Sure" promises an analytical review of the changes at Philly Country Club, only to have it delivered "in the near future" by "Hazard".

This sequence of commentary about the ongoing work and improvements at Philadelphia Country Club should provide the final conclusive evidence that "Hazard" and "Far and Sure" were clearly synonymous.

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