[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

I'm truly incredulous here.

I asked a few simple questions about how many times we know Tillinghast sailed abroad prior to 1900 and your answer was a  complete dodge of the issue.   I pointed out the flaws in doing the needle in a haystack digging for manifests and yet you cling to some belief because Tillinghast's formerly unknown 1890 trip on the Aurania probably wasn't where he had ship trouble (although there was a famed story of that same ship having trouble a few years prior), that somehow "Far and Sure" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is still not Tillinghast! 

First you said it couldn't be Tillinghast because he never travelled before 1895.   Then, when I showed he did travel before then, you said it couldn't be Tillinghast because he had a different story about the origins of the Pine Valley land finding that Far and Sure.    When I showed that not to be true...that you were mistaken and it was Joe Bunker who said that, then we find a new point of contention and round and round we go....

So, I have to conclude that your mind is clearly made up here and nothing that is presented will shake your beliefs.   So it goes.... 

I still would love to hear how Far and Sure clearly wrote an article that is almost verbatim from 3 separate Tillinghast articles in two separate publications, the majority of which wasn't even available to be copied from and which came out the exact same month, but we've beaten this horse to death... 

Have a great day, anyway. 

[Mike_Cirba]

One other thing I just remembered in the shower...

If memory serves, when we first discussed/debated who "Far and Sure" was back on the Cobb's Creek thread, you insisted that it had to be Walter Travis.   Since then, I've showed you two separate first hand accounts of events from "Far and Sure" that instead prove that it could not have been Walter Travis, because in both accounts it is noted that Travis was missing, or Travis sent his regrets.

In this thread, Jim Nugent adroitly noted that Far and Sure mentioned he was the sports editor of two prominent Philly newspapers.   We also noted he was in attendance at the GAP dinner that Far and Sure reported on.

How many of the men at that dinner were the Sports Editor of two Philly papers?   Only Tillinghast would fit that bill, to my knowledge.

The best argument that it wasn't Tilliinghast is the logistical one, but we also know that Tillinghast was an absolutely prolific writer.   My lord, how much did he write during his PGA trips during the 30s!?!   

We also know that he had some help from his dad, most likely with the poems and probably compiling the local tournament scores, but his critical analysis and opinions sounds just like him...to the point, crotchety, insightful, wordy, colorful, sometimes argumentative, but always passionately entertaining.   

 

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

I had decided that I wasn't going to reply on this thread again as I respect everyone's right to their opinion on the subject, but your statement , "Phil, I'm truly incredulous here... I asked a few simple questions about how many times we know Tillinghast sailed abroad prior to 1900 and your answer was a  complete dodge of the issue.   I pointed out the flaws in doing the needle in a haystack digging for manifests and yet you cling to some belief because Tillinghast's formerly unknown 1890 trip on the Aurania probably wasn't where he had ship trouble (although there was a famed story of that same ship having trouble a few years prior), that somehow "Far and Sure" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is still not Tillinghast!" requires an answer and hopefully you'll better appreciate where I am coming from on this subject.

From MY PERSPECTIVE, I see the following two posts:

#38 - "On August 18th, 1890, Albert W. Tillinghast arrived in NYC with his parents from Liverpool on the ship Aurania. No word yet if that ship had trouble around Newfoundland."

#40 - "Scribner's Magazine, in 1891 in an artilce titled "Safety On The Atlantic" wrote;
   "A few years earlier, when the (Cunard) Aurania was approaching land in a fog, the passengers who were smoking their after-dinner cigars suddenly saw looming above them, and above the topmasts, the cliffs which were supposed to be many miles away.   The captain was far out of his reckoning, but was going so slowly that he was able to back into the Channel with slight damage."
   Let's compare this to Far and Sure's account 22 years later;
   "A number of years ago your correspondent was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner, and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail. For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut in half with a knife had settled on us. At last it lifted and we found that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St.John for repairs."
   "Far and Sure" was most definitely Albert Warren Tillinghast...
   The last piece of the puzzle has been found and in the words of Sherlock Holmes, "Case Closed"!

Mike, you declared that the "Aurania" was the ship, that the August 1890 voyage that Tilly was on with his parents (and this is a GREAT find) was the ship that had the problems described in the F&S article and that therefor the CASE WAS CLOSED!

This is far beyond asking "a few simple questions about how many times we know Tillinghast sailed abroad prior to 1900..." which question, by the way, I never dodged at all. I answered definitively supplying all that has been KNOWN up till now. I thanked you for the information about what you discovered on the 1890 manifest and even sent it along to the family noting what YOU had discovered!

The problem with your declaring the "Case Closed" is that it wasn't and isn't. I was able to prove that Tilly's trip on the Aurania in 1890 was definitively not the one that F&S had written about and that the Scribner's article referred to an incident which occurred during it's maiden voyage in 1883.

Your response? A 15-year old Tilly may have made up a fanciful story based upon hearing passengers who were actually on board when it happened talking about... C'mon now. Even in jest, which is what I am hoping how you meant it, that was ludicrous to state. By doing so you appear close-minded to any criticism of your theory & it's proof, the very thing of which you accuse me.

In each and every instance where you have brought forth "proof" of the theory I have raisedwhat I believe to be reasonable arguments to refute them. That you disagree with them is fine and proper, but your statement that "So, I have to conclude that your mind is clearly made up here and nothing that is presented will shake your beliefs..." is only partially correct.

Yes, my mind was made up on this point before it was ever raised. Yes, it is still made up despite what has presented and my beliefs certainly haven't been shaken, not even a slight tremor. NO, I repeat, NO my mind is not closed and that I am VERY willing to accept and agree that F&S was Tilly, but ONLY when irrefutable proof can be given.

That this is so should be able to be seen in how I can laugh at myself for not thinking and mixing up "Joe Bunker's" statements on Pine Valley with F&S. Oh weel, I made an oops. What is ironic in this is that "Joe Bunker" was another person who was claimed by many to be Tilly which I at first agreed with and then, after discovering the Pine Valley reference, changed and both disagreed and was able to disprove it.

By the way, the family is thrilled to learn about this trip. also, back when the Merion ship manifest "discussion" was playing out, I, too, searched ancestry.com for records of a Tillinghast voyage prior to 1895 and there was nothing listed. That is also one of the reason's that I believed that the family history of Tilly first going abroad in 1895 was accurate and correct. With what you've discovered it appears that ancestry.com has added to their database...

Hope this helps and no hard feelings buddy...
  

[Phil_the_Author]

Final question for you to peruse Mike...

You, and others have written that Tilly was the "Sports Editor" of two Philadelphia newspapers. "In this thread, Jim Nugent adroitly noted that Far and Sure mentioned he was the sports editor of two prominent Philly newspapers..."

Question... Which papers was Tilly ever the SPORTS Editor for? Not GOLF Editor, but SPORTS or as F&S wrote "SPORTING" editor? The ENTIRE department including baseball, football, etc... This was a MAJOR FULL-TIME position that would have PREVENTED Tilly from travelling to do golf course design!

Tilly was never the SPORTS Editor for any major Philadelphia newspaper...

It's time to head back to the Free library and the Urban archives and simply look up the names of the SPORTS Editors for the Philadelphia newspapaers during 1890 - 1915 and see what names stand out.

If Tilly was the SPORTS Editor, not just GOLF Editor, then I will admit that he was definitely "Far and Sure." I will also make arrangements for a foursome on Bethpage Black for you, Joe Bausch, and two others of your choice next April before the Open during which I will carry your bag and serve as your caddy while wearing a "Joe Burbeck Designed Bethpage Black" shirt and when we reach the 18th tee I will declare loudly and for all to hear that Matt Ward is a genius and this SHOULD be changed to a drivable par-4!

How's that? 

[Mike_Cirba]

Too funny, my friend!   

Just a point of clarification.   The main reason I said "case closed" is because I had proven that Tillinghast had travelled abroad more than 20 years before the F&S article was published, which I believed was your main objection.   The small blurb I found at that time mentioning the Aurania experiencing trouble on one trip was certainly not definitive, but a strong coincidence worth exploring.

The fact that the manifests from that time are so error-prone and MIA makes them a very poor method of tracking down reality of over 100 years ago.

We already know that he travelled abroad in 1895 and there is no record of it.   

In fact, as a young man, didn't he travel to Scotland almost annually??    Yet, all the Manifests indicate is the 1890 trip, and then there is the 1899 English Emigration record with no corresponding return to the US!   

Who knows how many times he went, and on what ships?!   Who knows what ships had some distressing problems during their voyages....from the little I've looked at it seems a fairly common occurrence, until 30 or so years later when the "unsinkable" Titanic was built! 

I much prefer your suggestions as re: the local papers.  Stay tuned! 

[TEPaul]

Phil and Mike:

It seems like you two are spending so much time mincing each others words you've lost the forest from the trees here.

You two probably need to step back and take a fresh look at things like the life and times of passengers and ships at sea in the 19th century, shipping line's reports of events compared to the report of a man over twenty years later of an event that took place when he was a fourteen year old boy and even that Scribner's article. A lot of different and odd things happened with transatlantic ships in the 19th century that affected their schedules et al.

Phil, you said above;   

"I was able to prove that Tilly's trip on the Aurania in 1890 was definitively not the one that F&S had written about and that the Scribner's article referred to an incident which occurred during it's maiden voyage in 1883."

With all due respect I don't believe you have proven either, Phil, although I believe I can understand that you think you may have. First, unless I missed something, did that Scribner article identify the Aurania problem as that 1883 maiden voyage or was that just from a report by Cunard Lines? And secondly, I don't see how you've exactly proven that the voyage Far and Sure was describing was not the Aurania in 1890. I remind you that recollection may've just been one of a fourteen year old boy. Do you really think a fourteen year old boy's recollection must be from the same event as something reported by Cunard or even Scribners?

[TEPaul]

Mike and Phil:

This might seem off the subject but it's probably some pretty good background info for you to consider about transatlantic travel in the 19th century.

Apparently, Clement Griscom (MCC prominent member and chairman of the so-called "Shipping Trust") was so dedicated and generous with insisting that any and all of his ships go out of their way to help the ships of other lines and other nations at sea that this policy cemented for him a remarkably close business and personal relationship with the government and royalty of Belgium.

I think there are a ton of realities that you two need to consider about transatlantic shipping in the 19th century. For starters they most certainly did not adhere to "schedules" and things like being "On Time" in anything like the manner that we know airplanes or even trains do, and the reasons for that should be pretty obvious if one considers what goes on at sea! 

In any case, if Far and Sure was not Tillinghast, I would still very much like to find out what his identity was. I'm not sure how that can be done at this point and I'm afraid it doesn't appear it will be forthcoming from Mr. MacWood, even though he did claim on this thread that he knew it. I see on this thread that you asked him, as a personal favor, to share that information with you, Phil. Has he done that?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You keep making the same mistake...

You did it twice when you stated that, "You two probably need to step back and take a fresh look at things like the life and times at passengers and ships at sea in the 19th century, shipping lines reports of events compared to the report of a man over twenty years later of an event that took place when he was a fourteen year old boy and even that Scribner article..."

And again, "With all due respect I don't believe you have proven either, Phil, although I believe I can understand that you think you may have. First, unless I missed something, did that Scribner article identify the Aurania problem as that 1883 maiden voyage? And secondly, I don't see how you've exactly proven that the voyage Far and Sure was describing was not the Aurania in 1890. I remind you that was the recollection of a fourteen year old boy..."

I'm sorry, but you keep refering to the accounts as being the memory of a "fourteen year old boy" as if that has been established as fact... I hate to break it to you but you did "miss something" for the only voyage taken by Tilly that we know of when he was 14 (actually he was 15) was the August 1890 trip on the Aurania. I showed through the listing of the ship's history that there were no problems whatsoever on that voyage and that the ONLY trip with major problems in it's history, and it matches the facts of the article, was it's maiden voyage in 1883.

That means that if F&S was refering to problems on a voyage on the Aurania it would have had to have happened in 1883, and there is NOTHING to indicate or even hint at Tilly being on that voyage.

F&S was therefor refering to another ship at another time. I would suggest looking to the Alan Ship Lines "Siberian" which suffered major problems in May of 1886 and was considered as being lost at sea for a bit. It's accounts were covered in many newspapers in the U.S. and even as far away as Australia, including the New York Times. When it finally made port the accounts of what happened match what F&S wrote almost exactly.

Was that the ship & trip? I don't know, but it sure wasn't the one put forward by Mike. I can see how he made his leap of faith, but he will admit it was an incorrect step.

The answer lay in looking up the Philly newspapers of the period and see who their SPORTING Editor's were, that is the editor of the entire sports pages and  NOT just the golf editor because THAT is what F&S claimed to be. That means baseball, football, cricket, horse racing, etc... Sorry, but Tilly never did that.

There can't be very many men, a couple at most, who were the sports editors at two different major Philly newspapers during those years.

After seeing the photo of you searching through the archives at the old Philadelphia Cricketeer articles I know that you actually do real research! By the way, how can Wayne have such great dark hair and yours be so grey?  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, "In any case, if Far and Sure was not Tillinghast, I would still very much like to find out what his identity was. I'm not sure how that can be done at this point and I'm afraid it doesn't appear it will be forthcoming from Mr. MacWood, even though he did claim on this thread that he knew it. I see on this thread that you asked him, as a personal favor, to share that information with you, Phil. Has he done that?"

Yes I did and by email as well. He believe's that F&S was aboard the ship "Siberia" and shared that information with me. I checked the references of the voyage and ship problems and can confirm there accuracy. I have no idea whether that was the actually voyage, but it is worth checking into as a possibility.

He has not shared his conclusion as to F&S identity and I respect his right to choose not to at this point, though I am hopeful that he will in the future.

Regardless of his opinion, the answer lies in the Philadelphia Free Library and their microfilm copies of the old Philly newspapers. Simply find the person(s) who served as Sporting Editor for two of the major papers during those years (1895-1915?) and the answer should jump out at us.

I wish that this bit of understanding had occurred to me when I was up there a couple of weeks ago because I would have looked it up then... Oh well!

[Jim Nugent]

To throw another monkey wrench into all this: those golf writers with pseudonyms seemed to want to keep their real names private.  Could they have scattered false bits of info here and there in their articles, to throw would-be sleuths off the track?

 

[TEPaul]

Phil:

What you don't seem to understand is that IF, in fact, the person reporting that incident as Far and Sure in 1913 was Tillinghast as a 14 year old boy aboard the Aurania in 1890, his recollection of what constituted a crippled ship may not be the same thing as a Cunard Line report of a crippled ship.


"I'm sorry, but you keep refering to the accounts as being the memory of a "fourteen year old boy" as if that has been established as fact..."


Phil:

Oh no I haven't. I never said anything like it was an established fact. You should try to not automatically jump to those kinds of conclusions when something like that hasn't been said or referred to as a fact. To me all it is, is a very reasonable line of inquiry! 

To me the real identity (or identities) of Far and Sure and perhaps some of the other American Golfer pen names is still something of an open question. I'm not saying I feel completely certain it was Tillinghast (at least sometimes) but I am most certainly not about to discount the fact that it was, at this point.

[TEPaul]

"Could they have scattered false bits of info here and there in their articles, to throw would-be sleuths off the track?"

Jim:

In my opinion, definitely, although I do not think the false bits of information were ever on anything other than who they really were or weren't. I think the whole thing was something of a literary game and I suspect the readership probably got into it and just ate it up, and I think the editors of those magazines and newspapers understood that full well as did the pen name writers and they all got into it. Knowing Tillinghast's vivid imagination it seems like he could've been one of the very best that way. He did have this kind of thing going with his father under a pen name and did not admit it until after his dad died.

I was talking about this whole pseudonym/pen name thing with Bob Crosby the other day and the both of us are getting really interested in that subject. It seems he feels that occasionally some of the others who knew perfectly well the real identities of those pen name writers would writer various things on particular subjects and sort of by mistake attribute certain things to the real names of the people who were writing those things under pseudonyms and pen names.

When the pen name writers saw that and mentioned it to other writers who were their friends, the other writers (such as Behr) probably just said; "Oopps, sorry about that but it wouldn't do much good to print a retraction it at this point, would it?" 

[Mike_Cirba]

Legendary myth suggests that A.W. Tillinghast travelled abroad frequently and spent most summers of his youth with Old Tom Morris.

Bollocks, I can now report! 

In fact, even the supposed "KNOWN" trip by Tillinghast and his wife in 1895 NEVER HAPPENED!   


The only maritime records for A.W. Tillinghast between the years 1880 and 1910 are the following;

1) A July 1890 arrival in NYC from Liverpool aboard the Aurania.    There is no corresponding record of Tillinghast's arrival in British records.

2) A July 1899 arrival in Liverpool from Philadelphia aboard the Waeslon.    There is no record of his return to the United States.


There is simply NO WAY that Tillinghast could have palled around with Old Tom in the summer's as he claimed.   There is no record of it! 

And let's face it...he was only 15 and 24 when he made those trips.

How could he have possibly gained the knowledge to build Shawnee in 1909 without more study overseas??   Better run down that CB Macdonald connection to Tillinghast, as well.   

So, there you have it...another legendary myth debunked through the power of the Internet!   


These ship records are crap folks.   

I'm not going to spend another minute searching for that needle in a haystack.

If someone thinks the ship in question is "The Siberia", and they can tell us confidently who Far and Sure is from that passenger list, then they should look it up and either produce it or stay out of the discussion, even in absentia. 

I've spent too much time already chasing such a shoddy source of evidence for what are incomplete scraps of history.   

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I simply meant that it appeared that you were using the quote to suggest that the pseudonym's used were interchangeable and possibly non-specific to individual person's. That is why I identified "Duffer" for you. If you didn't use it that way i apologize for the misunderstanding."

Phil:

I believe it is entirely possible that some of those pen names in American Golfer could've been used by more than one person. I have seen nothing to date to indicate why that may not have been the case with some of them at various times, including Far and Sure. On the other hand, do you or anyone else have anything (or have already produced something) that would prove otherwise?  

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

I have not exactly seen anyone on this website say that because someone cannot be found on one of those ship manifests that it completely proves they could not have been abroad. On the other hand, there most certainly have been a couple of people on here, who, when asked to admit to that have avoided answering or responding to the question altogether and repeatedly. Does anyone really wonder why?  It seems to me they realize it would be illogical to claim such a thing but perhaps by just remaining silent they think it might convey that implication. 

[Joe Bausch]

Phil Young:  your responses denying that Far and Sure is not Tilly continue to amaze me!

Here is Tom Paul and the GCA.com'er now known as Guest reading the American Cricketer magazine at the Haverford library:

[TEPaul]

Phil:

You asked why my hair is grey and Wayne's isn't? One of the reasons is I'm old enough to be his father, and I feel old enough to be his grandfather. 


At this point, I'm sure there are a number of people (if there are any left trying to follow this entire pen name, Far and Sure, Tillinghast, and perhaps even Merion thing), wondering why some of us are going through libraries at this point trying to figure out something like Far and Sure's identity.

I guess that's a good question, at this point, but for me it really just goes to the issue of the credibility of what was reported in some of these old newspapers and magazines. I feel if it really was somebody who was truly close to most of these people we research, such as Crump and Wilson, Flynn, Thomas, Macdonald, Whigam et al, and we know they were really close it just indicates what was reported was much more detailed and credible than otherwise.

For instance, if there's an article that actually recounts some dialogue between say Crump and Perrin in the summer of 1912, such as one by Ford in 1925, I figure that reporter who wrote that article in 1925 must have taken notes during a pretty close and detailed interview with Perrin. If that was not the case, I can see no way at all (knowing about Perrin as I do) that he would've allowed that kind of dialogue in a newspaper article.  God Knows Perrin did demand a retraction of something printed and by Tillinghast and he got a detailed retraction from him in spades.

[Phil_the_Author]

Joe,

I am just glad that I still have the ability to amaze someone, even a chemistry professor!

[TEPaul]

Phil:

When it comes to amazing someone regarding scientific analysis it probably isn't a very good thing to be amazing a college Chemistry professor that way. 

I'll tell you one thing, it does not look like any competent Police departments are going to be hiring any of us any time soon as crack investigators! Well, other than me perhaps, but I just can't allow that as they may have to do a comprehensive background check in which case I'd probably be doing investigative research from a jail cell.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...I'm an idiot.   

I looked at the log of the "Siberian", per our friend in absentia.

It arrived in Boston in March of 1886.   I've confirmed that the ship had trouble.

Yet, not a single person on that ship was either known in golf or in attendance at the Golf Association of Philadelphia 1912 dinner that "Far and Sure" wrote about. 

It ain't the one.   

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Do you mean there wasn't anyone on the Siberian's passenger manifest list under the listing of something like "Joe Schmoo/future pen name writer "Far and Sure" for future magazine American Golfer magazine?"

I find that unthinkable. You better check that manifest list again and find the guy or you really are an idiot!

[Mike_Cirba]

p.s.

I've also given quick review of the 473 pages of the 1883 Aurania trip that Phil mentioned had trouble.

In the "interpreted" records, there is no sign of Tillinghast, but it's tough to tell.

I looked at the actual copy of the log and it looked like it had spent some time UNDER water.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba:

Do you mean there wasn't anyone on the Siberiun's passenger manifest list under the listing of something like "Joe Schmoo/future pen name writer, "Far and Sure" for future magazine American Golfer?"

I find that unthinkable. You better check that manifest list again and find the guy or you really are an idiot!

Tom,

The closest thing I could come up with was a passenger by the name of "J C Shanks".

However, as I went through the thing and thought about the futility of this wild goose chase, another passenger name seemed appropro; 

"Hy Dick".

I kid you not.


Either our boy Tilly had tremendous imaginative creativity and mixed BS and hyperbole in his mythologic written accounts, or his misadventure happened on one of what are any number of supposed frequent overseas voyages of his that were seemingly never recorded for posterity.

I think either is very plausible.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

I may have disagreed with your conclusions, but in all seriousness your search into both the "Siberian" and "Aurania" and the records of the two mentioned voyages was quite impressive and greatly encouraging to see.

By the way, FOR THE RECORD, Joe Bausch has me convinced that "Far and Sure" could NOT have been Walter Travis. He can definitely be eliminated from contention.

If you'd like to know why, ask him... It is black & white and not quite read all over! 

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks Phil...we should have better luck with the newspaper search.

Glad to see we've eliminated Travis at least! 

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