[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

It's a good question to ask when "Far and Sure" reported that Crump and his friends "discovered" Pine Valley on horseback. I don't recall that article or specific description. If Crump and his friends were riding around that land on horseback it would seem to be later after Crump had discovered it and perhaps bought it after analyzing it for some time. That sounds like something they would do after the land had been bought and they were analyzing it for holes and a routing. I do not believe that Crump even told his friends who he would start the club with that he'd been looking at it for some time and that would explain why he made that famous remark to his friends who he would start the club with; "I think I have found something mighty fine."

There is also the article where Tillie mentions in the winter of 1913 that he'd been aware that Crump was looking at the place for over a year and asked him not to mention it. That would indicate that Crump had been over there analyzing that land since at least the early part of 1912.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba:

It's a good question to ask when "Far and Sure" reported that Crump and his friends "discovered" Pine Valley on horseback. I don't recall that article or specific description. If Crump and his friends were riding around that land on horseback it would seem to be later after Crump had discovered it and perhaps bought it after analyzing it for some time. That sounds like something they would do after the land had been bought and they were analyzing it for holes and a routing. I do not believe that Crump even told his friends who he would start the club with that he'd been looking at it for some time and that would explain why he made that famous remark to his friends who he would start the club with; "I think I have found something mighty fine."

There is also the article where Tillie mentions in the winter of 1913 that he'd been aware that Crump was looking at the place for over a year and asked him not to mention it. That would indicate that Crump had been over there analyzing that land since at least the early part of 1912.

Phil/Tom,

I figured it out.

It wasn't "Far and Sure" who claimed the Crump found the course hunting on horseback.   It was "Joe Bunker", and here's part of Phil's quote from the discussion on the Cobb's Creek thread when we were speculating as to JB's identity.

"There are a number of contradictory statements to others that Tilly is known to have written about various aspects of golf course construction and community. A good example of this is Tilly writing in 1913 and later in both the 20's & 30's that Crump found the land for Pine Valley after seeing it out the train window on a trip to Atlantic City and that Crump swore him to secrecy about it until his 1913 article. "Joe Bunker" wrote that Crump took a number of friends on a horseback ride & hunt and accidentally discovered it during this outing. There are several other similar examples..."


So, in the words of John McCain, "My friends....we now know without any remaining doubt that A.W. Tillinghast was indeed "Far and Sure" in American Golfer."   



oh wait...there is one remaining mystery...

Didn't Tom MacWood say he found out who "Far and Sure" was from a ship's manifest and that it wasn't Tillinghast or Travis?   

Am I being too much of a wiseass if I ask for some evidence? 


Nah...let's let it go.   

At least the truth about Merion's architectual history has finally prevailed here. 

[Joe Bausch]

Here is that Joe Bunker snippet from May 3, 1914 in the Philadelphia Inquirer:

[TEPaul]

Joe:

That's another pen name and another newspaper and about a year later. I thought you said Phil Young said that "Far and Sure" said that but let's let Phil address that.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe:

That's another pen name and another newspaper and about a year later. I thought you said Phil Young said that "Far and Sure" said that but let's let Phil address that.

Tom,

Phil did say that but it appears he was thinking of our "Joe Bunker" discussion a few months back when he stated that he didn't believe "Far and Sure" was AW Tillinghast.

I'm betting that he'll now be very happy to admit that they are one and the same! 

[Thomas MacWood]

Two questions:

Have you checked to see if the Aurania's voyage was delayed in 1890?

Far & Sure was based in Western Pa in 1913...was Tilly?

[Phil_the_Author]

MIke et. al.,

As I've been traveling these past few days this is my first moment to catch up to this discussion. Unfortunately I'm still in New York and don't have my own computer or references to use and so I'll simply say to Mike that you are still making too many leaps of unproven faith and that I don't believe that there has been anything even remotely close to suggest that "Far and Sure" was Tilly.

First of all no one has even done the basic research to connect "Far and Sure" in the American Golfer with "Far and Sure" from the newspaper articles or the "Far and Sure" who I mentioned in a very early comment who wrote in British golf journals.

Secondly, If Tilly is both "Far and Sure" and "Hazard" from the American Golfer then there has to be some explaining as to why articles under both names can be found in the same issues.

As far as the photographs are concerned... I don't believe this is Tilly at all in them, rather the gentleman in the plus-fours looks far more like Travis. He is TOO OLD to be Tilly. Take a look at the Tilly photos im my Tilly bio. When these articles were written he would have been less than 40 years old. The man in the photo gives the impression of being much older than that.

Mike, as far as the manifest is concerned, you emailed me and told me that the trip it refers to was made in August 1890. The manifest states that he was 14 years old, but we have documented proof that he was 15 in August 1890. To paraphrase an old Cuban philosopher, "Mikey, you got some 'splainin' to do!"

Now I readily admit that maybe they left America before mid-May and the person who filled it out just copied his age from that; yet the story behind this clerical error is meaningless.

Knowing the date of the voyage, research should be done to ascertain if the ship had the problemns described in the article and if they occurred during that voyage. THAT is what will answer the PROPOSITION raised that "Far and Sure" was none other than A.W. Tillinghast.

Mike, as for the article where "Hazard" wrote of the discovery of Pine Valley by Crump while looking through the train window, it can be found in Chapter II of my Tilly bio... If you don't have it, and SHAME on you if you don't (only kidding there buddy!) I will send you the reference when I get back home on Monday...

Finally, Joe... you kissed a GLORIOUS day of golf! Hope you feel better soon...

[Phil_the_Author]

Guys,

I have the answer on the Aurania. I can state unequivocably that the August 1890 voyage by the Tillinghast family was NOT the one that "Far and Sure" wrote about. By Googling "Aurania" I was led to a web-site containing the entire history of the ship and all it's sailings. From the website, note the following brief history:

"The Aurania had a tonnage of 7,269 tons gross, 3,468 under deck and 4,030 net. Forecastle 102 tons. She had a single screw and was powered by a compound engine with 3 inverted cylinders, 1 of 68 in. & 2 of 91 in. diameter respectively; stroke 72 inches. The engine delivered 1,500 horsepower, which gave the ship a speed of 16 knots. The engine was built by the same company as the hull. She had 3 masts and was rigged as a bark. This came in handy on her maiden voyage when her engine failed due to overheating. The voyage was completed under sail. The Aurania was known as a badly rolling ship, and was never very popular. Call sign: HRGW. Official registration #: 87839 Owners: Cunard Steam Ships Co. Ltd. Port of registry: Liverpool"

In the listings of the trips she made, her maiden voyage was 6/23/83 and she returned to New York on 7/14/83. The following note is attached, "Arrived in New York under tow with damaged engines..."

After that she didn't have further problems until WW I.

The listing of the August 1890 arrival in New York which Tilly and his family was on dosn't mention a departure date, but from the monthly round-trips that she made to Liverpool and back it is quite obvious to see that she was not "crippled" as the article by "Far and Sure" mentioned , especially as she appeared to have arrived in port as schedlued with no delay.

I think this proves that Tilly was NOT "Far and Sure." I would suggest that a search of the  1883 manifest of the maiden voyage of the "Aurania" should be made to see if any familiar names might be found on it. If not, then I believe that the conclusion that "Far and Sure" was on the "Aurania" during this incident is mistaken and that it refers to another ship and date. This means that the "similarity" in the two articles where the "Aurania" is menioned is that, and nothing more...

Now to slerep so that I can fly back home tomorrow... You'll just have to wait until then for my review of the changes and preliminary set-up work on Bethpage Black for next year's U.S. Open...

[TEPaul]

"Far & Sure was based in Western Pa in 1913...was Tilly?


Mr. MacWood:

What can you point to that would lead someone to assume that?

In 1913 the pen names "Far and Sure" and "Hazard" contributed the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" to American Golfer. In Western Pennsylvania a pen name contributor by the name "William Pitt" contributed the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" to American Golfer.

Again, you've stated on this thread that you knew the identity of "Far and Sure" and that you'd discovered his identity from ship records. If so why don't you tell us who he was and how you discovered his identity via a ship's records? The fact that you've continuously avoided questions put to you on this thread about his identity or refused to mention who he is citing this "PLEDGE" isn't  the real reason you've avoided answering or refused to mention his identity, is it? The real reason is you're either confused about these American Golfer pen names or you never knew pen name "Far and Sure's" identity, isn't it?

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Some pretty good comebacks on those posts of yours of last night but they seem to serve to raise more questions than answer the question if Tillie wrote (even if only occasionally) or didn't write under the pen name "Far and Sure."


You said:

"First of all no one has even done the basic research to connect "Far and Sure" in the American Golfer with "Far and Sure" from the newspaper articles or the "Far and Sure" who I mentioned in a very early comment who wrote in British golf journals."

I'm still not over the confusion of all these pen names and the newspapers and magazines they were used in. What American newspaper (or magazine) was the pen name "Far and Sure" used in other than Travis' American Golfer? I'm not talking about the "Far and Sure" pen name contributor in British publications because I doubt he would've been providing copy on American golf subjects to American Golfer or to any American newspapers on American subjects.

Frankly, I think it's a potentially interesting subject to discuss on here why all these pen names were used at all during this particular time in all these newspapers and periodicals involving reporting on golf and architecture.

[Joe Bausch]

I don't know who are in the photos, but I think the golfers in them (and even a caddy) are very similar.  And they are likely not of Tilly.  If he was the wonderful amateur photog that I've heard about, he would most likely been behind the camera, not in front of it!

Phil:  I find your arguments based upon web info on the Aurania somewhat less than compelling. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Joe
The Aurania departed Liverpool on August 9, 1890 and arived in NYC August 17, 1890. That voyage was not delayed. In fact there is an interesting article in the NY Times about an unofficial race the Aurania had with the City of Rome and Arizona (from rival lines) on that treck. The purpose of the race was to determine who had the fastest ocean liner on the seas. They departed Queenstown (Cork) simultaneously; City of Rome was the winner.

Just for the record, TransAtlantic voyages departing Liverpool usually stopped at Queenstown before travelling to Boston or NYC.

[TEPaul]

"Phil:  I find your arguments based upon web info on the Aurania somewhat less than compelling.   "


Joe:

I do too. For starters there really wasn't anything in shipping like the kind of "On Time" most of us think of today with airplanes and/or railroads. I know this because I think my second job in life was with a New York shipping agency and the arrival times of ships was basically and ever-changing item (and actually one often reported daily in newspapers). The reasons for that are obvious---eg over a period of five or so days crossing the Atlantic (for instance) there are so many wind and weather and seas variables to construct some preconceived "On Time" arrival time off of a departure! 


One can even understand this reality (somewhat in reverse) off a tragedy like The Titanic in 1912. I don't believe they had a set or formal "arrival" or "On Time" set with that ship for the simply reason that even if White Star Lines tried to deny it, there is little question they were attempting to set a transatlantic speed record on that maiden voyage and the reasons of incredibly valuable publicity are obvious. I don't think anyone denies The Titanic was cranking along at practically flank speed in the North Atlantic that night in April, 1912 when they knew damn well there might be some pretty significant danger out there from icebergs. The historic irony of that was I think they felt The Titanic was an example of some new-found invulnerablilty to the dangers of the sea in that it was cracked up to be essentially "unsinkable".

And I really do remember the maiden voyage of the UNITED STATES in I think 1956 because I knew some people who were on that maiden voyage. They set out to break the transatlantic record and I think they did it handily. This friend of mine, Dee Martin, said they went so fast that when she left the ship in GB she looked at the bow and all the paint was stripped off it! 

[TEPaul]

"The Aurania departed Liverpool on August 9, 1890 and arived in NYC August 17, 1890. That voyage was not delayed."


Mr. MacWood:

The problem with your information and apparent rationale is that the report in American Cricketer by Tillie was the description in 1912 or 1913 of the recollections of a 14 year old boy over twenty years previous. He said the ship was crippled but that does not necessarily mean the Cunard Lines said it was crippled or that that was reported back then. What a 14 year old boy calls crippled may not be the same thing as the ship's company's description. 

Furthermore, see my post above about the realities of transatlantic travel. There really is no set "On Time" or even delays with transatlantic schedules as a lot of different things go on weather and sea-wise every day out there in the Atlantic, particularly the North Atlanitc. My Dad explained those vagaries to me one time and he should have known since he crossed the Atlantic in the Navy in WW2 twenty seven times!

However, it would not surprise me to see you respond to that kind of information coming from me that it only shows I must have been staying in some Holiday Inn Express!   


Again, Mr. MacWood, would you mind informing all of us what "Far and Sure's" identity was since you said on this thread that you knew it? It would also be nice if you explained how in the world, as you also said, you determined his identity off a ship's record.

And how about your statement that "Far and Sure" was based in Western Pennsylvania in 1913? Where is any evidence of that, or is that just another unsupportable statement you threw out there?

[Mike_Cirba]

Guys, guys, guys...

If "Far and Sure" who wrote the January 1913 review of Merion for American Golfer wasn't Tillinghast, he would have had to directly plagiarize not from one, but from two separate Tillinghast articles, both of which are here and both of which have some slightly different info, ALL of which are included in the Far and Sure article.

[Thomas MacWood]

City of Rome made the trip 6 days, 23 hours and 40 minutes. The Aurania was second 7 days, 1 hour, and 36 minutes. And the Arizona was several hours behind both them. No mention of any of the liners making a pit stop at St. John, Newfoundland for repairs.

[Thomas MacWood]

Far & Sure was based in Western Pa in 1913...was Tilly?

[TEPaul]

"City of Rome made the trip 6 days, 23 hours and 40 minutes. The Aurania was second 7 days, 1 hour, and 36 minutes. And the Arizona was several hours behind both them. No mention of any of the liners making pit stop at St. John, Newfoundland for repairs."

Mr. MacWood:

Again, that might be explained by the fact that Cunard never bothered to check the story of a man reporting in Philadelphia's American Cricketer magazine in 1913 of his own particular recollections as a 14 year old boy over twenty years previous! 

[TEPaul]

Just to prove that I am not trying to stubbornly defend some particular position on this issue of who "Far and Sure" really was (even if in my opinion he could easily have been more than one person ), I will say that it appears Walter Travis (and his new wife) also traveled back and forth across the Atlantic between New York to GB in 1890! 

Now, who on this website has ever previously suspected that?   

[Sean Leary]

Was plagiarism a common and accepted practice during this time?

Any way that Far and Sure was both Tilly and Travis?

[TEPaul]

"Far & Sure was based in Western Pa in 1913..."


Mr. MacWood:

Don't you think it might be a good idea if you try to give some explanation of WHY you say that, particularly after being asked to on here a couple of times?  

I don't think there can be a single person left on this website who puts any crediblilty in those kinds of statements of yours with no explanation and then watches as you continuously refuse to explain them when asked!

[TEPaul]

"Any way that Far and Sure was both Tilly and Travis?"


Sean Leary:

In my opinion, of course there is! 

I think it's so interesting that I've mentioned this a number of times on this thread and noone seems to pick up on it. What in the world would be the problem with both Tillinghast and Travis (or frankly others) contributing copy under the American Golfer pen name "Far and Sure?"

There's no reason I can think of. Actually, when one really considers this possibility there're probably a number of reasons why that would be both convenient and perhaps even preferrable! 

And particularly since a Travis biographer seemingly mentioned that it may've been Travis who handed out some or most of those pen names to be used by some of his regional contributors to American Golfer magazine. After-all, Travis started American Golfer magazine and he was its editor! 
  

[Thomas MacWood]

These were the last two articles Far & Sure wrote for American Golfer:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag103j.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag104l.pdf

[Sean Leary]

TE,

Sorry I missed you saying that. This has been fascinating for me.

Regardless, doesn't this put an end to the major Merion questions?

[TEPaul]

This might be somewhat edifying on this subject of "Far and Sure" and American Golfer.


"He (Travis) lined up regional correspondents to cover events in as many locales as he could, and to protect them from the scrutiny of the amateur versus professional hawkers, gave them all a pseudonym. It was "Lochinvar" covering the Western region. "Bunker Hill" handled New England. "Hazard" held court around Philadelphia. "Buckeye" reported from Ohio. Both "The Judge" and "The Colonel" issues reports from the South. "Far and Sure" was in Eastern Pennsylvania; "William Pitt" was in the Western part.. "Argonaut" detailed the Pacific news, and "A Sufferer", "The Duffer," "The Philospher," and "Westward Ho!" all submitted to the magazine from time to time. The identities of some of the correspondents and columnists remain a mystery yet today, prompting some to speculate that whenever it suited his fancy, Travis took on another name and let the doctrine fly."
From The Old Man (The Biography of Walter Travis) by Bob Labbance

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