[Mike Mosely]

There's just one thing I don't understand:  what Joe B found...what does it DISPROVE about Moriarty's article and/or who designed Merion?

mark p, you're right.  I spoke too soon.  See clip...

[TEPaul]

"There's just one thing I don't understand:  what Joe B found...what does it DISPROVE about Moriarty's article and/or who designed Merion?"


Mike Mosely:

I could probably answer that question, even as simply as in a series of "bullets" but the problem with doing that is there may be a whole host of contributors on here who will scream bloody murder claiming I'm turning this thread into another Merion thread.

I don't think any of this stuff is about "PROVING" or "DISPROVING" anyway, at least not in the sense or context of trying to make this DG about the same thing as a court of law. It's what it very strongly indicates or not.

So, I don't know, given the risk of looking like I'm turning this into another Merion thread, I guess I should ask----do you really want to have that question of yours answered on this thread?

[Mike Mosely]

No I don't want to encourage a fight at all.  I'm one of the ones calling for less fighting on other people's threads, not more.  I'm not a lawyer and I really don't want to have to read anything that amounts to a legal brief on a golf issue.  But maybe Mike Cirba or even a third party like Mark or Andrew or someone.

Look from a lay person's view, all this has gotten ridiculously complecated.

Isn't there a simple one sentence answer that says, well if x is true then y couldn't have happened?

Isn't there a simple way to digest it by saying in a paragraph or so:

this is moriarty's premise.

this is why TEP and Wayne disagree.

This is what Joe Bausch found.

This is what it does to _______'s theory and why.

If Joe found something that important, we all should try to understand its ramifications. That was impressive work.

[TEPaul]

But this post is a different matter; it's appeared on here about half a dozen times and it's been consciously ignored and so it's going to keep appearing on here until he produces some answers, and not just deflective responses  but real answers that address the questions asked.

It is never going to be insulting and it will contain no sarcasm, just a very straight forward couple of questions about a pretty heady statement made:




Mr. MacWood:

The QUESTIONS ARE---If, as you've said on this thread that you know or knew the identity of "Far and Sure" and that you found his identity via ship records, do you or did you really know his identity and how did you determine his identity from a ship's records?

I hope you can understand this is not something just I want to know, there are many others who do too and some of them have no association with me at all.

[TEPaul]

MikeM:

No, I don't think all of this about Moriarty's essay can be answered in one sentence.

What Joe Bausch found with this manifest is that Tillinghast went abroad in 1890. That was a good find because even Phil Young who seems to be one of the primary sources of information on Tillinghast didn't think Tillinghast had been abroad before 1895.

What some of us believe is that this manifest and the date of it may indicate that Tillinghast may've written under the pen name "Far and Sure" (at least occasionally) and that lends credibility to what "Far and Sure" said in a few articles on Merion and about Hugh Wilson designing the course.

If you want me to respond to how either you or me may think that may effect what Moriarty said in his essay, then it may help if you tell ME what YOU think Moriarty said in his essay about Hugh Wilson designing Merion East.

[Mike Mosely]

OK that's a start.

Did anyone else write under the name "Far and Sure?"  Why is there no concrete record as to who "Far and Sure" is?  Can anyone else have written under "Far and Sure?"  (some of the earlier posts indicate maybe someone else (travis?) may have also written under the name?)  How does the manifest and the dates of the trip lead you to the conclusion that far and sure is AWT?

As for my understanding, like many people on the board, I don't need to have a PhD in the whole issue.  AS I understand it vaguely, DM says that HH Barker may (somehow) have helped with designing Merion (is it the routing he may have helped with?) 

You and wayne say no.

Somehow, CB Macdonald's name is involved too.  I don't have the time to go through all the threads to figure out how and why

I don't need chapter and verse or a 200 page treatise.  Like everyone else who just wants closure and a quick one sentence answer the next time we're out to dinner and someone asks about who designed "What was HH Barkers involvement at Merion?" we can simply say, "_____________________ ___________________" and be done with it.

[TEPaul]

Mike Mosely:

I understand what you're saying and what your asking---believe me, I really do.

And now you have to understand what I'm saying and what me and Wayne and some of the others here who really do know Merion's history pretty comprehensively and certainly more comprehensively than anyone else on this board by a factor of---well I'm not sure but it's definitely measurable---are maintaining about Merion's history and who essentially designed Merion East (and West).

Do not get into using words like DISPROVING or even proving anything about Merion's history. What does that word really mean on this DG anyway?

To me it means a few people on here recently have tried to either elevate or reduce the discussion and the opinions on this DG to a court of law context. It is not that. It doesn't ever need to be that or we will never really get anywhere on here.

The reason that's impossible is these events and times were never recorded in detail as to whose concept this specific hole or set of holes or routing or style was. They did not record that stuff and they couldn't video or tape it and frankly noone has ever bothered to do that at any time and probably never will.

So what are we left with? We're left with the raw material of how that stuff was recorded. We deal in things like board meeting minutes, committee reports and sometimes newspaper and magazine reports reflecting those things. And we deal in the reports of those men who were asked to record the history of clubs, most importantly the reports of the people who were there and knew the people doing it, were related to them and basically saw it all happen.

That's for starters, Mike, and now if you'd like me to go on and explain how all that has been almost totally and completely skewed on this DG by a few people I'll do it. BUT you need to ask me again if that is really what you want me to do, even in a simplified or "bulleted" way; and hopefully this time in a manner that will make some of these things clearer to you because I have no interest in regenerating all those completely ridiculous Merion threads that went on and on and on with no willingness to understand or resolve what very, very likely did happen and who in the words of Hugh Wilson's brother, having interviewed all those who directly worked with Hugh, WAS "IN THE MAIN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE EAST AND WEST COURSES."

A few people on here have either ignored, dismissed or tried to rationalize away an account like that. You just can't to that with any kind of historical intelligence or integrity, in our opinion. All it boils down to is just a waste of time and endless arguing with no purpose or goal.

If any of them had anything credible to point to that contradicted Alan Wilson's report and others like it then it was never produced with one single exception and that was a remark Macdonald's son-in-law made approximately thirty years after the fact in an article eulogizing Macdonald. Whigam was most certainly not an unimpressive man in the world of architecture but the fact is he was there for less than three days over a period of a year when those men from MCC were working on this every day and recording what they were doing and who was doing it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

I've been sick for the past few days...and also buried at work....

I'm not to the boiled owl stage yet, but perhaps a poached one.

I'll give you a call this weekend.


Mike Mosely,

Unfortunately, there is way more history to this Merion controversy than can easily be condensed into a 2 or 3 sentence summary.

Rather than challenge the White Paper that was written and posted here by David Moriarty, I'd simply say this;

If Far and Sure was AW TIllinghast, which appears now to be very, very likely, then Tillinghast himself told us who designed Merion, as he saw the plans prior to construction (proven), he wrote the 1912-13 article in American Golfer that credited Hugh Wilson (99% proven), and then again reiterated in 1934 during the first US Open at Merion that Hugh Wilson both planned and developed the Merion East course.

He was a contemporaneous, expert, eye-witness and he was also a strong aquaintance of CB Macdonald and virtually everyone else in American golf in the early years.

His first-hand testimony would be unshakeable, especially when weighed against a very incomplete circumstantial case built almost 100 years later.

[Thomas MacWood]

Scribner's Magazine, in 1891 in an artilce titled "Safety On The Atlantic" wrote;

"A few years earlier, when the (Cunard) Aurania was approaching land in a fog, the passengers who were smoking their after-dinner cigars suddenly saw looming above them, and above the topmasts, the cliffs which were supposed to be many miles away.   The captain was far out of his reckoning, but was going so slowly that he was able to back into the Channel with slight damage."


Let's compare this to Far and Sure's account 22 years later;

"A number of years ago your correspondent was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner, and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail. For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut in half with a knife had settled on us. At last it lifted and we found that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St.John for repairs."


"Far and Sure" was most definitely Albert Warren Tillinghast.

And Albert W. Tillinghast most assuredly and most precisely tells us who designed Merion..  He's the only one who wrote that he saw the plans prior and then unabashedly and most confidently placed the authorship credit in one man's hands once the course opened and then again years later when Merion was about to host its first US Open.

The last piece of the puzzle has been found and in the words of Sherlock Holmes, "Case Closed"!   

Mike
Have you checked to see if the Aurania's voyage was delayed in 1890?

[Mike Mosely]

Dear Tom P and Mike C:

Thanks!  Those were concise and informative.  Mike, your strongest point, and one that Tom P makes well too, is that the primary sources are strongly pointing to Merion's long-standing history.

Let me ask you this...what do YOU think was Barker or Whigham's involvement then?  Do primary sources address this question?

Is this then a fair assessment for me to make when asked about this:

"Merion was designed by Hugh Wilson after he consulted with such greats as CBM and AWT.  It's astounding that he was able to rout and bunker the course so well as a rookie on his first try.  Some people believe he had help from men named H.H. Barker and Whigham.  Primary sources don't support this as strongly, but there are some indications they might have offered insights."

Please don't shoot me if that's not right, I'm only asking so I can take a somewhat informed position.

I'm still confused as to how AWT being on a ship at such and such a date points to his being "far and sure" but hey, one mystery at a time

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

That's pretty close to fair in terms of creating a neat summation.

I might just change it around as such;

"Merion was designed by Hugh Wilson and his committee after he consulted with such greats as CBM, H.J. Whigham. and then later had the course reviewed by giants such as AWT and Harry Colt.  It's astounding that he was able to route and bunker the course so well as a rookie on his first try, although he spent another 12 years perfecting and even wholly revamping stretches of what was originally opened in 1912 .  Some people believe some of the original 1912 routing was assisted by previous efforts from H.H. Barker, but it's now certainly true that Macdonald and Whigham helped Wilson and his committee choose the best of five potential routings they had devised, prior to construction in April 1911.." 

"It is also clear that Macdonald & Whigham offered important insights into strategic concepts and that their advisement was of significant assistance and apprciated greatly by the club."

[Mike Mosely]

Mike C, as usual, that was fantastic!

Tom MacWood, how would you or David re-write the same paragraph?  It seems a reasonable compromise to my neophyte eye.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I'd also be curious how you might re-phrase the two-paragraph summary I just added.

I do believe we're close to the same understanding, so I would hope we aren't too far off the mark.
 
On the other hand, if you still feel that my understanding of the origins of Merion East are somehow either provincial, prejudiced, or erroneously pre-conceived, I hope you can show me specific evidence.

On the positive side, I do believe we're all getting much closer to a true understanding of events, despite ourselves sometimes. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
I think it is fantactic too!

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike
I think it is fantactic too!

Tom

Great to hear.

I'm hopeful that we've all learned a lot from all of the related research and debate and that certain prior understandings have been significantly revised and other historical understandings have been permanently bolstered.

Same as it ever was.... 

 

[Mike Mosely]

Mike
I think it is fantactic too!

Wow.  Did I actually help the two sides find some common ground?  Cool.  I hope so!

Maybe I should change careers and be a mediator or something!

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Forget about cryptic remarks on some constructed paragraph about Merion or additional questions on the Aurania's 1890 voyage; the following questions about your statement on this thread that you know the identity of "Far and Sure" and that you figured that out from some ship's records are what you need to stop avoiding and start answering on this particular thread. Here they are for about the eighth time:




The QUESTIONS ARE---If, as you've said on this thread that you know or knew the identity of "Far and Sure" and that you found his identity via ship records, do you or did you really know his identity and how did you determine his identity from a ship's records?

[D_Malley]

isn't it reasonable to consider that "far and sure" just might be two people.  dosen't the phrase _____ and _____ usually indicate two seperate things?

maybe AWT & His Father doing a column under one name.

[Jim Nugent]

Mike
I think it is fantactic too!

Wow.  Did I actually help the two sides find some common ground?  Cool.  I hope so!

Maybe I should change careers and be a mediator or something!

Looks like I'm the one to spoil all this good cheer.  Tom M. Was NOT making agreeing with Mike C. in any way, as I see it.  Just the opposite.  He was saying it was fan fiction.  Is that right, Tom M?

[TEPaul]

"isn't it reasonable to consider that "far and sure" just might be two people.  dosen't the phrase _____ and _____ usually indicate two seperate things?
maybe AWT & His Father doing a column under one name."

D. Malley:

The term Far and Sure was a fairly well known term back in that day and so I don't know that it was two words with an "and" indicated it was two people (all the time) but I am beginning to suspect that not only one person wrote under that pen name all the time. I think Tillinghast wrote under it sometime but we also know he used the pen name "Hazard" in the same magazine, American Golfer and in the same regional section.

One of the reasons I say that is because if one looks at the pen names of the "Pennsylvania Notes" under the American Golfer "Eastern Department" section one can see that mostly the pen name is "Hazard" under "Pennsylvania Notes" but sometimes it's "Far and Sure" under "Pennsylvania Notes". The fact that some of those "Far and Sure" "Pennsylvania Notes" sound so much like Tillinghast's really unique style is pretty indicative to me. The other thing we know is "Hazard" AND "Far and Sure" never wrote under the "Pennsylvania Notes" in the same issue.

What difference would it have made if he wrote under two pen names alternately for American Golfer or even if some one else used the pen name when he didn't? I doubt any of those contributors had those names patented, so to speak, or syndicated. I think it was just sort of a game that didn't really mean much.

I'd also like to know who "Bunker Hill" was in the Massachusetts section of the "Eastern Deptartment" or even "Lochnivar" who wrote for the "Western Section."

[Joe Bausch]

I am now in possession of the January 1913 Tillinghast article from The American Cricketer.  The review of Merion covered two pages, with my first photo of the page being good, the second slightly out of focus.  I have posted them below (note the bonus coverage I give you with Tilly introducing Pine Valley!).  I'm as sure now as ever that Tilly wrote that Far and Sure article in The American Golfer.  The reviews are just too similar.





And here is another little reason why I believe Tilly wrote that Far and Sure article:  check out how similar the golfers look in a photo from each article.  The first being from the The American Golfer's Far and Sure, the second from Tilly in The American Cricketer:

[Mike_Cirba]

It's over.

In my opinion, Ran should pull the speculative White Paper that has now been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be in error, and that risks this site providing a searchable, false architectural history of a great club whose true "legendary" story deserves not to be besmirched.

That, of course, is totally his call, but irrespective of everything else, this is a wonderful find, Joe.  Great Job!!   

[Mike_Cirba]

Looks like I'm the one to spoil all this good cheer.  Tom M. Was NOT making agreeing with Mike C. in any way, as I see it.  Just the opposite.  He was saying it was fan fiction.  Is that right, Tom M?

Jim,

I'm not sure from Tom MacWood's remark if he was agreeing, but after Joe's latest posting, there is really nothing to disagree with any longer. 

"Far and Sure" and A.W. Tillinghast were one and the same; at least for the Merion article in question, and at the risk of being redundant, Tillinghast saw the plans prior to construction, and credited Hugh Wilson when the course opened and again for the 1934 US Open.   

Multiple accounts by Tilinghast providing contemporaneous, eye-witness, first-hand, expert testimony which is indisputable should finally slam the lid shut on this cold case.

[TEPaul]

"And here is another little reason why I believe Tilly wrote that Far and Sure article:  check out how similar the golfers look in a photo from each article.  The first being from the The American Golfer's Far and Sure, the second from Tilly in The American Cricketer:"


Joe:

I think that's a very good investigative pickup. It has to be the same day when Tillie mentioned he played with Willoughby and Perrin (the fall of 1912). If so Tillie did write that American Cricketer article as the golf editor of that magazine (apparently there was on one else contributing on golf for the American Cricketer at that time) and the Amercan Golfer article is under "Far and Sure" with the same golfers. I think the fellow in the jacket and cap probably is Tillie.

It was very interesting for me to find out today that Philadelphia's American Cricketer magazine was the official magazine of the Golf Association of Philadelphia at that time.

[Mike_Cirba]

As some may know, I am of the very strong opinion that "Far and Sure" was NOT Tilly. There is a variety of reasons for this, but among them is one that I believe to be most important in comparing writings by the two. They give contradictory accounts of how Crump discovered the land upon which he would build Pine Valley.

Tilly wrote of the day they were returning from a round of golf at Atlantic City and how Crump looked out the window and saw the land as they passed it by and immediately realized that he had to build a golf course there. He wrote it, not as one who was told the story, but as an actual eyewitness of the event.

"Far and Sure" would recount this same discovery and tell of it as one who was also there with him at that moment and tells how it was during a day of horseback riding and hunting when he and friends quite unexpectedly came upon the land and he decided that it would be perfect for a golf course.

As one who wrote about the design and construction of Pine Valley continuously throughout his life, as a man who would end up contributing to the final design, as a bit of an obsessed admirerof it whose lifelong dream was to create his own "Pine Valley" style of golf course which would rival it, he most definitely would NOT have written contradictory accounts of the finding of the land by Crump, especially under a pseudonym whose identity was understood and of fairly common-knowledge of identity back in the day.

Hi Phil,

Just to try and wrap up the last remaining mystery here, I scoured American Golfer for all articles written by "Far and Sure", but have yet to find where he claimed that George Crump found the land for Pine Valley while hunting on horseback.

Can you point me in the right direction?  

Also, while searching I noticed in the same issue where "Far and Sure" did his review of Merion (Jan 1913), there is another paragraph later where he writes;

Since the opening of the new Merion course, the golf membership has increased to such an extent as to render it necessary to place a limit on it.  To illustrate the stampede, it may be mentioned that every one of the four hundred lockers in the golf club house has been taken and there remains a
long waiting list. To relieve the congestion of the course the club has purchased
a tract of land close by and an additional eighteen holes will be built.  It is planned to run motor buses from the club-house to the new course at intervals of few minutes."

..which again is a very close parallel to what Tilly wrote in "American Cricketer".

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