[TEPaul]

"I do though have very serious doubts that this is the voyage that "Far and Sure" was refering to for I can date this quite accurately. Tilly was born in May of 1875. As the manifest lists his age as 14 the voyage would have to have taken place between May 1899 and May 1990. The article refered to by "Far and Sure" places the date of the voyage in question as being "A number of years ago..."

Phil:

"A number of years ago" is not the only date that "Far and Sure" places the voyage in that American Cricketer article. Read the whole thing---Mike posted it on this thread. He says later in the article that the voyage was "over twenty years ago". If the article was written in 1912 "over twenty years ago" would be pretty accurate to that voyage in 1890, and yes, Mike can confirm it but I believe he said the ship's name was the Aurania. As for Tillie's age on the passenger manifest, given all the other similiarities of his initials, his father's initials, the hometown, all being correct, it seems to me if his age was off by a few months it is understandable. To imagine a B.C. and his son Albert W. right next to him, all from Philadelphia could actually be some other family is just way too much of a coincidence for me.

As for what Tom MacWood said about identifying the real name of "Far and Sure" off some ship's records, I still have no earthly idea how that could be done by anyone; except apparently Tom MacWood who does not seem interested in explaining how he did that and from the way he carries on with his information on here I doubt he ever will bother to try to explain it. The fact he says he knew the identity of "Far and Sure" that way but can not now remember it is pretty hilarious and as is his usual way is probably another excuse to dismiss the fact he really does not know "Far and Sure's" identity and never did.

How can anyone blame me for labelling his modus on here with this kind of information and those kinds of statements as "The throw some spaghetti against the wall to see if it will stick and if anyone will believe these things" OR the "Always Maintain But Never Explain" theory of research or analysis? 

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You missed what I wrote in my reply. You wrote, "To imagine a B.C. and his son Albert W. right next to him, all from Philadelphia could actually be some other family is just way too much of a coincidence for me..."

I don't and stated such, "Now as far as this manifest is concerned. That is definitely Tilly & his parents and is a wonderful find..."

I have already emailed the manifest to his family and let them know what Mike has discovered, including him in the correspondence...

[Mike Mosely]

Here is that manifest for those keeping score at home. 

Oh, that is cool.  Mike C, nice wrap-up.

We went to Ellis Island last year and got the old manifest from when my ancestors came over in the 20s and had it framed for ym dad.  It's so detailed, it even shows how much money they had in their pockets when they got off and where their finalo destination was supposed to be - in our case Cali, but we never made it.  One relative said, Boston was where it was at, so...

[Jim Nugent]

My instinct tells me two different people wrote those articles.  The writing styles seem to me too different for one writer. 

Perhaps.  But if they were two different writers, then Far and Sure, if he wrote an article like that for a class at my university, he might find himself with an academic integrity violation. 

That's my guess.  He plagiarized. 

[Mike Mosely]

Hey! Has any one noticed?  we have a thread discussing Merion and Philly golf without any of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02rlGHsqLOQ&feature=related

[TEPaul]

Phil:

So, are you suggesting that you feel this was Tillie on that 1890 passenger manifest that Mike Cirba provided but that the person who wrote the article in American Cricketer in 1912 (22 years after this ship passenger manifest) was not Tillie?

If the person who wrote the American "Far and Sure" article in American Cricketer in 1912 about Merion must then have also been on a ship (the one that went into St John's for repairs) around 1890 because he mentioned that the quarry hole reminded him of that St John's incident "over twenty years ago".

If Mike or someone can confirm that the Aurania (the ship Tillie was apparently on in 1890) went into St John's for repairs on Tillie's voyage would you then conclude that "Far and Sure" in that 1912 American Cricketer article about Merion must have been A.W. Tillinghast?

I still haven't figured out how Tom MacWood thinks he's established the identity of "Far and Sure" from some ship records, that he knew the identity of that person and that it was not Tillie or Travis but someone else (and that he has since forgotten who it was or cannot now determine who it was ). Can you shed any light on that as it doesn"t seem like Tom MacWood will?

By the way, Phil, I don't much care if "Far and Sure" was Tillie or was someone else; I just think this whole pen name or pseudonym thing for American Golfer is interesting. And of course if someone was reporting on Philadelphia, Mid-Atlantic or Pennsylvania golf and architecture we kind of would like to find out who it was so we might be able to determine how closely he may've been connected to some of these clubs and architects. Ultimately, I feel, that says something about the accuracy of some of these articles or the details in those articles.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
I'm certain you'll figure before its all said and done, actually Mike, Phil, Joe, or someone else will figure it out and then explain it to you.

[TEPaul]

TE
I'm certain you'll figure before its all said and done, actually Mike, Phil, Joe, or someone else will figure it out and then explain it to you.








Tom MacWood
Sr. Member
   
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Posts: 1469

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #26 on: Today at 05:39:45 am »   

 
The AG article starts, "A number of years ago your correspondent was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner, and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail. For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut in half with a knife had settled on us. At last it lifted and we cound that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St.John for repairs."

A while back I figured this was the clue to Far & Sure's identity. I tracked down the name of the ship and the date of incedent, through the ship's records was able to figure out who wrote it. His name escapes me right now but I do remember it wasn't Tilly or Travis.
   
« Last Edit: Today at 06:23:09 am by Tom MacWood »    








Tom MacWood
Sr. Member
   
 Online

Posts: 1469

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #29 on: Today at 06:55:36 am »   

Phil
You may be thinking of someone else, I wasn't participating on GCA when I discovered the identity of F&S.






Mr. MacWood:

The question is---If, as you've said, "Far and Sure" was not Tillinghast or Travis, do you or did you know the identity of "Far and Sure" and how did you determine his identity from some ship's record?

Pretty simple questions really. I realize you constantly hestitate or refuse to answer questions about how you determined some of the things you say on here, and generally you say you don't understand the question, apparently so you don't have to answer it. 

These are pretty simple questions, but I guess it's possible you may not be capable of understanding them, even if it should be pretty hard for anyone to believe you can't understand the two questions above. 

My bet is you just don't want to answer questions like these because your statements reflected in those posts of yours above aren't true. Perhaps you just assumed noone would question you on this but as you know, I question some of the things you say on here all the time, because there usually seems to be very good reasons to question some of the things you say on here.   

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
I've already answered your questions. You should be pleased I gave you the key to the puzzle. Instead of giving me the third degree you should be following up on the those clues and looking for more. I would love to help unfortunately...

[TEPaul]

“TE
I've already answered your questions. You should be pleased I gave you the key to the puzzle. Instead of giving me the third degree you should be following up on the those clues and looking for more. I would love to help unfortunately..."


Mr. MacWood:

This has become hilarious. That's the same old bob and weave from you, the same old evasive crap.

Here it is: 

1. “I can’t remember Far and Sure’s name even though I determined his identity when I wasn’t on this site and it wasn’t Tillinghast or Travis.”

2. “I don’t understand the question.”

3. “Mike or Joe or Phil should be able to help you figure it out.”

4. “I already answered your question.”

5. “You should be pleased I gave you the key to the puzzle. Instead of giving me the third degree you should be following up on those clues and looking for more. I would love to help unfortunately...”




You didn’t answer my questions at all Tom MacWood. Where did you remotely attempt to answer them other than that litany of evasions listed just above? Again, here are the QUESTIONS and there’re very simple.




The question is---If, as you've said, "Far and Sure" was not Tillinghast or Travis, do you or did you know the identity of "Far and Sure" and how did you determine his identity from some ship's record?

[Thomas MacWood]

Phil
You may be thinking of someone else, I wasn't participating on GCA when I discovered the identity of F&S.

Instead of giving me the third degree you should be following up on the those clues and looking for more.

TE
What don't you understand about my statement that I have no desire to help you or anyone associated with you? Do you think if you keep asking me questions I'll eventually answer them? Get off your ass and do some digging.

[TEPaul]

"TE
What don't you understand about my statement that I have no desire to help you or anyone associated with you?"





Mr. MacWood:

So, this is about your "Pledge" to do nothing to help me or anyone associated with me, is it? A number of people on this website are trying to determine who "Far and Sure" was and/or if it was Tillinghast or someone else---and for good reason, I might add. Look at this thread and appreciate the contributors on it and that they too would apparently like to know. Because I'm on this thread do you now consider that they are all 'associated with me?' 

We have Phil Young, arguably the best expert on Tillinghast who would like to determine this. We have Mike Cirba (who by the way just found a most significant passenger manifest that shows Tillinghast took a trip abroad that Phil Young, The Tillinghast Society, Tillinghast's family and apparently all others on here never knew about), we have Joe Bausch who I believe even you know has done some wonderful research this year who would like to determine this. And we have the other contributors on this thread you can see who apparently would too. And you are going to refuse to answer those simple questions because you consider they are all ASSOCIATED WITH ME??

You have stated that you know (or knew but FORGOT ) the identity of "Far and Sure"! And now you refuse to tell any of these people because you think it may help me??



You asked:
"Do you think if you keep asking me questions I'll eventually answer them?"



Mr. MacWood:
Of course I do? Why wouldn't you with a good number of people who clearly would like to know too? Should Phil Young ask you instead of me? Would you answer the same questions if he asked them of you? How about Mike Cirba? How about Joe Bausch? How about any of the other contributors on this thread? How about we get Ran Morrissett to ask you? Would you just say all of them are associated with me and UNFORTUNATELY you must stick to this idiotic PLEDGE of yours not to help ME?



You said:
"Get off your ass and do some digging."



Mr. MacWood:
This isn't about me or my digging. Others on here have done a ton of digging on this subject. Are you going to tell all of them to get off their asses and do more digging because of this idiotic pledge not to help ME?

This website and these subjects on these threads are not research competitions with me or Mike Cirba, Joe Bausch, Phil Young or anyone else, Mr. MacWood. They are discussions and the collective sharing of information to further those discussions and the education involved from and emanating from them. And now you refuse to back up some statements you made on this subject because these people are associated with ME??

I believe if any of us had a fairly good belief that you actually do or did know the identity of "Far and Sure" and somehow discovered it from a SHIP MANIFEST  that would be one thing but I think at this point most on here are beginning to seriously suspect that you never knew anything of the kind. I surely do know that is what I suspect at this point. If that is the case, why did you say such a thing, Mr. MacWood?? But more importantly why are you wasting everyone's time now by failing to admit that you never knew the identity of "Far and Sure"?

I think you know the score here, Mr. MacWood. Did you say you knew the identity of "Far and Sure" when you know very well you never did? And how in the world do you think anyone would believe you found out his identity from some Ship's RECORDS???  Do you think anyone will believe he was listed on a ship manifest under the listing of "Joe Blow (who uses the pen name "Far and Sure" with American Golfer Magazine)" 

Do the right thing, Tom MacWood, before you completely lose all credibility with everyone on here---eg answer these simple question. Here they are, ONE MORE TIME:


The QUESTIONS ARE---If, as you've said, "Far and Sure" was not Tillinghast or Travis, do you or did you know the identity of "Far and Sure", and what is his identity, and how did you determine his identity from some ship's record?

[Mike_Cirba]

Quoting Finegan quoting Tilly in the American Cricketer article;

...The third hole is a remarkably fine one shotter and presents a closely guarded green...on the 7th, if the drive is not played close to the boundary on the right, the approach to the terraced green from the left is very bothersome...the 13th is a nice short hole although the green seems a shade large considering the length of the shot.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Hey! Has any one noticed?  we have a thread discussing Merion and Philly golf without any of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02rlGHsqLOQ&feature=related

Mike

Looks like your post was the kiss of death as the thread went downhill shortly afterwards!

[Mark Pearce]

Hey! Has any one noticed?  we have a thread discussing Merion and Philly golf without any of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02rlGHsqLOQ&feature=related

Mike

Looks like your post was the kiss of death as the thread went downhill shortly afterwards!

Indeed.  Very sad that apparently grown men can't help behaving like 10 year olds.  Actually, scrap that,if my 10 year old twins behaved like TEP and Tom MacWood do on here towards each other I'd be ashamed of them.

[TEPaul]

Mark Pearce:

I'm sure you can see this thread is about the identity of "Far and Sure" and/or if it was Tillinghast or someone else. A number of us would like to know and for good reasons. This guy puts the following post on here and then refuses to explain it when asked and this isn't the first or second time he's done that on threads. Why is that? Why don't you ask him to explain it? Maybe he'll tell you. Otherwise what are you participating on this thread for? Don't you want to know?



"A while back I figured this was the clue to Far & Sure's identity. I tracked down the name of the ship and the date of incedent, through the ship's records was able to figure out who wrote it. His name escapes me right now but I do remember it wasn't Tilly or Travis."

 

[Mark Pearce]

Mark Pearce:

I'm sure you can see this thread is about the identity of "Far and Sure" and/or if it was Tillinghast or someone else. A number of us would like to know and for good reasons. This guy puts the following post on here and then refuses to explain it when asked and this isn't the first or second time he's done that on threads. Why is that? Why don't you ask him to explain it? Maybe he'll tell you. Otherwise what are you participating on this thread for? Don't you want to know?



"A while back I figured this was the clue to Far & Sure's identity. I tracked down the name of the ship and the date of incedent, through the ship's records was able to figure out who wrote it. His name escapes me right now but I do remember it wasn't Tilly or Travis."

 

I'd love to know.  Tom MacWood's childish refusal to explain it to you is another example of the sort of behaviour I'm referring to.  It doesn't however, justify the thickly layered sarcasm which you used to address him in this thread, even before that refusal.

Like previous threads, this one started out interesting and then got spoiled.  You and Mr MacWood both have much to offer of interest to this website (far more than me, I know) but both insist on poisoning any thread you both participate in with nonsense aimed at the other.  I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing that you would both stop it. 

[Andrew Mitchell]

Mark Pearce:

I'm sure you can see this thread is about the identity of "Far and Sure" and/or if it was Tillinghast or someone else. A number of us would like to know and for good reasons. This guy puts the following post on here and then refuses to explain it when asked and this isn't the first or second time he's done that on threads. Why is that? Why don't you ask him to explain it? Maybe he'll tell you. Otherwise what are you participating on this thread for? Don't you want to know?



"A while back I figured this was the clue to Far & Sure's identity. I tracked down the name of the ship and the date of incedent, through the ship's records was able to figure out who wrote it. His name escapes me right now but I do remember it wasn't Tilly or Travis."

 

I'd love to know.  Tom MacWood's childish refusal to explain it to you is another example of the sort of behaviour I'm referring to.  It doesn't however, justify the thickly layered sarcasm which you used to address him in this thread, even before that refusal.

Like previous threads, this one started out interesting and then got spoiled.  You and Mr MacWood both have much to offer of interest to this website (far more than me, I know) but both insist on poisoning any thread you both participate in with nonsense aimed at the other.  I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing that you would both stop it. 

Mark
You are not alone.  I follow threads like this to learn more about the origins and development of golf.  Up to & including post #53 I was doing just that.  Since then all I've learnt is how adults can behave like little children.  A shame the individuals concerned can't deal with their issues with each other either with civility or offline.

[TEPaul]

"I'd love to know.  Tom MacWood's childish refusal to explain it to you is another example of the sort of behaviour I'm referring to.  It doesn't however, justify the thickly layered sarcasm which you used to address him in this thread, even before that refusal.

Like previous threads, this one started out interesting and then got spoiled.  You and Mr MacWood both have much to offer of interest to this website (far more than me, I know) but both insist on poisoning any thread you both participate in with nonsense aimed at the other.  I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing that you would both stop it."


Mark Pearce:

Thanks for that post and because of it I'm going to do my level best to dispense with any and all sarcasm towards Tom MacWood on this "Far and Sure" identity thing he posted on here. But I hope you (and others) both can and will understand why I ask him to explain statements like that one he made that he discovered who "Far and Sure" was and HOW, and that even if he can't now recall who it was he knows it was neither Tillinghast or Travis.

Some on here may think this kind of thing is just some investigative game to see who can discover something first. I do not believe it is that. The real identity of some of these pen name or pseudonym writers are very important to some of us here, particularly in the Pennsylvania region and the reason it's important to us should be obvious to all who really do follow these threads and try to learn from them. If "Far and Sure" was Tillinghast it goes right to the heart of informational reliablity with some of these articles because noone who knows the history of golf in this region does not understand that Tillinghast was very close to most all these people and designers and their courses that we research.

This is not about how much or how little research digging I do, as we here in Philadelphia very much share with each other and others out there what we find. Clearly this includes Joe Bausch and Mike Cirba and the really good research they have done this year. Wayne Morrison too and others, and certainly including Phil Young of Atlanta on things to do with the subject of Tillinghast.

Does this man now refuse to explain himself on a statement he made that he knows "Far and Sure's" identity because he feels all those people are associated with ME?

How can you blame me, at this point, for suspecting he is not telling the truth, since this is certainly not the first time or first subject to be subjected to this remarkable "PLEDGE" thing from Tom MacWood whereby he makes these seemingly significant statements and that he can or has proved them (Barker and Macdonald/Whigam on Merion, Campbell on Merion and now that he knows the identity of "Far and Sure") and on what he knows or what he's discovered and then completely refuses to explain them when asked?

I sure hope you or others are not suggesting I should stop asking him to explain what he says and how he discovered these things, but I certainly will take your good advice and try to stop all sarcasm when and if I ask, even if this type of ongoing thing is pretty frustrating for me and the others I mentioned who I do know are very interested in this subject and others like it.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

The QUESTIONS ARE---If, as you've said, "Far and Sure" was not Tillinghast or Travis, do you or did you know the identity of "Far and Sure", and what is his identity, and how did you determine his identity from some ship's record?

Would anyone else care to ask him those questions or care to know what the answers may be?

[Mark Pearce]

Tom Paul,

I have no problem whatsoever with you asking Tom MacWood for explanations of his theories or proof of his claims.  Indeed that is how rigorous study should be conducted and, done properly, is one of the main reasons a site like this should exist.  I would hope he would respond positively and test your assertions in return.  In that way the collective knowledge of these matters can only improve.  The one caveat is that for this to work it needs to be done civily, with respect for each other and the views and opinions of all concerned (please note that respect for an opinion does not entail agreeing with it).

Sadly it is the requirement for civility and respect which has been ignored in the past.  If you now continue to probe and push for answers to your questions, without sarcasm and with civility, I for one would applaud that and hope to see answers to your questions.  If you get them, then we shallall benefit, if not then more's the pity but at least by asking politely you will not lose my respect.

[Mark Pearce]

Mr. MacWood:

The QUESTIONS ARE---If, as you've said, "Far and Sure" was not Tillinghast or Travis, do you or did you know the identity of "Far and Sure", and what is his identity, and how did you determine his identity from some ship's record?

Would anyone else care to ask him those questions or care to know what the answers may be?

Yes, those are questions that immediately occurred to me on reading Tom's statement that he had identified Far and Sure.  I would be very interested in the answers.

[TEPaul]

"Sadly it is the requirement for civility and respect which has been ignored in the past.  If you now continue to probe and push for answers to your questions, without sarcasm and with civility, I for one would applaud that and hope to see answers to your questions.  If you get them, then we shallall benefit, if not then more's the pity but at least by asking politely you will not lose my respect."

Mark Pearce:

I agree with you and as I mentioned will cut out all sarcasm. How did I do in that vein on my last two posts? If he doesn't answer my post #69 which are the same questions put on here multiple times why don't you try asking him yourself? Maybe he will answer you. I don't believe anyone on here would conclude that you are "associated with me"; do you?

[Mark Pearce]

Tom Paul,

Your last two posts were exemplary.  I struggle to see how any one could accuse us of being associated with each other, except in so far as we both have nothing better to do with our time than post on this site.

I look forward to Tom MacWood's answers.

[Mark Pearce]

Tom MacWood,

If, as you've said, "Far and Sure" was not Tillinghast or Travis, do you or did you know the identity of "Far and Sure", and what is his identity, and how did you identify the ship involved in the incident and determine his identity from that ship's record

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