News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #225 on: October 28, 2008, 12:52:56 PM »
Hey Phil...I was just thinking...wouldn't Tillinghast have been 37 years old when the "Far and Sure" article came out in January 1913?

And just so I'm clear, he started work on Shawnee in 1909 and opened it in 1911?   Did he start work on any courses in 1912 or any others in that period from 1909 through 1912?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 12:55:49 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #226 on: October 28, 2008, 01:03:52 PM »
Phil:

Here's a legitimate question for you:

In your opinion, how long and over what timespan did Tillie consistently contribute to and writer for American Golfer?

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #227 on: October 28, 2008, 01:19:21 PM »
"However, as I went through the thing and thought about the futility of this wild goose chase, another passenger name seemed appropro; 

"Hy Dick".

I kid you not."


Mike Cirba:

Don't be so quick to laugh at a name like that. One of the prominent families in New York (and perhaps emanating from Boston), Social Register and all that, were the Dicks. A Mrs. Dick was one of my maternal grandmother's best friends in New York. I'm not kidding.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #228 on: October 28, 2008, 01:30:46 PM »
Some of the names of some of those people from that world back then are pretty amazing to me and particularly when that WASP world started giving first names to their children that sounded like last names---and one of the reasons for that was that they actually were, and from generally somewhere on the maternal side of things!   

But the one that is perhaps the oddest and neatest in my memory was that of a man who was a really close friend of maybe a great maternal uncle of mine by the name of Grenville Clark who was a helluva famous legal mind who worked for four presidents for a dollar each time and who also came up with the concept known as "International Federalism" or "World Peace Through World Law".

One of his friends or his family's friends was a man by the name of Learned Hand! That guy was one of the most respected legal minds in American history. He was asked many times to serve on the US Supreme Court but he never accepted, prefering to remain in the New York Southern District. He was apparently one of the most respected jurists and legal minds of his time.

To me his name just sounds so much like what he was (a highly respected jurist and legal mind) but how could his parents have known that when they named him that?  ;)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 01:33:16 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #229 on: October 28, 2008, 01:42:38 PM »
Tom

With a name like that, what choice did he have?

Thanks for elevating the level of discourse.  I was going to mention crudely that I went to school with a fellow named Michael Hunt but to keep things on a higher plane I won't do that now.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #230 on: October 28, 2008, 02:44:39 PM »
Phil,

Do we have much of a record of what Tilly spent his time doing between say age 21 in 1897 and his first effort at Shawnee in 1909 at age 33?

I know I should buy the book.  ;)

We know he played a lot of golf during that time, but what else did he do?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #231 on: October 28, 2008, 04:12:47 PM »
Mike,

You asked a few questions. "Hey Phil...I was just thinking...wouldn't Tillinghast have been 37 years old when the "Far and Sure" article came out in January 1913?"

He was actually 38 but who doesn't mind looking a year or two younger!

"And just so I'm clear, he started work on Shawnee in 1909 and opened it in 1911?"

Yes, though he may have begun planning the work at Shawnee as early as very late 1907 or early 1908.

"Did he start work on any courses in 1912 or any others in that period from 1909 through 1912?"

Yes. He was working on Abington Hills which is NLE, Belfield CC and Wanango CC all of which work was finished by 1913-14. In addition, we have recently learned of several other courses that he may have been involved with as early as 1912 and possibly even late 1911 following  on the tails of the successful Shawnee opening. I am not at liberty to share these yet as we are still researching to confirm them and the exact dates.

"Do we have much of a record of what Tilly spent his time doing between say age 21 in 1897 and his first effort at Shawnee in 1909 at age 33?"

Yes we do. First of all he really was working very hard at his father's business, the Tillinghast Rubber Good's Company. What had started out as a simple rubber goods store specializing in the sale of rubber suits for use in baptisms by Baptist ministers grew to at least 4 locations in and around Philadelphia. They produced any and all things for the public's use.

As spectacularly successful as B.C. was in building it up, Tilly was in screwing up. For example, he was given the task of obtaining the patents for several items. He neglected to get this done and it has cost the family millions of dollars over the years for royalties on the squuegee and the spatula...

Still, B.C. put up with his ineptitude and poor business abilities and supported his son and his family through all tghese years.

Tilly also wrote a good deal. The earliest known article of his can be found in the December 1899 issue of GOLF magazine and is titled "A Visit to St. Andrews." In this he writes of his visit the year before and is his first mention of Old Tom in writing and is contains the first use of his most famous photograph, that of Old Tom in the doorway of his shop. There are several other highly memorable photos of his in this article as well including one of his caddy and another well-known image he called the "Fishwives of St. Andrews."

During this time he did play a lot of competitive golf, as did his father. This might explain why he was so indulgent with Tilly in this area.

You mentioned, "I know I should buy the book..." I must agree with you there!  ;D 

Tom Paul asks, "In your opinion, how long and over what timespan did Tillie consistently contribute to and writer for American Golfer?"

In the American Golfer magazine As "Hazard" Tilly wrote a total of 92 articles from November 1908 to May 1919 in the following sections of the magazine: Eastern Department, Eastern Pennsylvania Notes, Middle Atlantic States, Middle Atlantic Notes and Around Philadelphia. In addition, he also wrote in it under his own name a column titled "In the Bag" which appeared in the December 1914 issue.

During this same time period in 1914 - 1915 he also wrote 19 articles under his own name in the magazine Golf Illustrated and Outdoor America. These were mainly under the byline "The Humor of the Game" "The Kingsmen" The Grouch" etc... and they contained many of his "Cobble Valley Yarns" which served as the basis for his book, Cobble Valley Yarns and Other Stories.



TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #232 on: October 28, 2008, 05:01:56 PM »
"Tom Paul asks, "In your opinion, how long and over what timespan did Tillie consistently contribute to and writer for American Golfer?"

In the American Golfer magazine As "Hazard" Tilly wrote a total of 92 articles from November 1908 to May 1919 in the following sections of the magazine: Eastern Department, Eastern Pennsylvania Notes, Middle Atlantic States, Middle Atlantic Notes and Around Philadelphia. In addition, he also wrote in it under his own name a column titled "In the Bag" which appeared in the December 1914 issue.

During this same time period in 1914 - 1915 he also wrote 19 articles under his own name in the magazine Golf Illustrated and Outdoor America. These were mainly under the byline "The Humor of the Game" "The Kingsmen" The Grouch" etc... and they contained many of his "Cobble Valley Yarns" which served as the basis for his book, Cobble Valley Yarns and Other Stories."



Phil:

Why do you suppose the pen name "Hazard" wrote most all the monthly copy for the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" up until 1911, and then "Far and Sure" wrote most of that section's copy in 1911 and 1912 and then from 1913 on that section was back to "Hazard?" I just can't see why you're having such a hard time entertaining the notion that this could've just been Tillie switching back and forth with pen names. And why wouldn't he? What better way could there be to keep people guessing what the identity behind those pen names was?

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #233 on: October 28, 2008, 05:43:53 PM »
Phil Young:  your responses denying that Far and Sure is not Tilly continue to amaze me!

Here is Tom Paul and the GCA.com'er now known as Guest reading the American Cricketer magazine at the Haverford library:



That library looks like just the kind of place I could spend a lot of time in. But do they allow smoking?

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #234 on: October 28, 2008, 05:52:05 PM »
Bradley:

Of course not. Nobody allows smoking any more.

I owe you an IM, email or call on that really good IM you sent me on your interest and research on the history of golf grass. That one was really good and the history of grass somewhat in the realm of dwarf types before golf agronomy is a fasinating thing to look into. Some other sports and applications were using it preceding dedicated golf agronomy, that's for sure.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #235 on: October 28, 2008, 06:31:26 PM »
Bradley, that Cricket library at Haverford is really special.  I don't know one darn thing about the game of cricket, but once I was in that smallish room I somehow felt transported back in time.  The current person they have overseeing the place while the 'veteran' lady takes a leave of absence was a riot to talk to.  Who knew there are only a few cricket libraries in the entire world!  And who knew that a very rich source of early Philadelphia, if not USA, golf would reside in this library with the ~50 year run of The American Cricketer.  As far as I can tell, only this library has a nearly complete collection of this magazine.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #236 on: October 28, 2008, 06:59:56 PM »
Joe

Does American Cricket have carts and cart tracks for the fielders and batsman?

Do the bowlers us a range finder to confirm the distance to the Batsman?

Has the Gap between the wickets extended in length (in excess of 22 yards)?

If the answer is No to All the above questions why have you guys introduced that stuff into golf – is it possible that you may know even less about golf than cricket? :o

I will not dare to comment on that, if I do, someone no doubt will accuse me of something or other. But it might make you think because I believe your Cricket Clubs formed before your Golf Clubs. Just a thought ;)


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #237 on: October 28, 2008, 07:03:51 PM »
Dear Melvyn,

?

Sincerely,
Joe
----------------


;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #238 on: October 28, 2008, 07:08:36 PM »

Joe

I trust the ? does not refer to golf, boy if it does then you are in trouble.

Your humble servant

Melvyn Hunter Morrow


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #239 on: October 28, 2008, 07:15:28 PM »
A personal story about ship manifests and why caution is important.

It's the time of the potato famine in Ireand.  My maternal great grandmother, a native of County Claire, Ireland, is bound for Australia to start a new life.

Being related to me, she got on the wrong ship and ended up in New York instead!

My dad has done research, and her name shows up on the manifest for the Australian ship.  There was  nothing on the Ireland to NY to be found.

--------------------------

Boy, Wayne and Tom sure look professorial!  I just noticed that Wayne wasn't reading reading glasses  -  what's with that!

==============
Last thing - I was reading up on the DC-area attractions.  Has anybody given thought to visiting The Library of Congress?   They may have some nuggets just waiting to be found.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #240 on: October 28, 2008, 07:53:39 PM »
My God Dan, what a manifest story. With this revelation why don't you just give it up and move down under by right? Or at least demand dual citzenship and join Royal Melbourne so we can all come down and mooch off you? That story sounds like Mattie, my Mannie, who was driving from New York back down south to Florida with her family (for about the twentieth time) and somehow around South Carolina or Georgia they took a wrong Interstate and the next thing they knew they were in New Orleans!  ::)

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #241 on: October 28, 2008, 07:59:30 PM »
Melvyn:

While walking through the Haverford College campus in the rain to my ultimate destination, the Cricket Room in the Haverford Library, I believe I spotted a cricketer or two but I can't be sure---I hear they are about as rare and elusive as a Geico.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #242 on: October 28, 2008, 08:27:50 PM »
Phil,

Thanks for that information.   I suspect Tillinghast may have done even more writing...he seemed a voracious and incorrigible and at times verbose, but entertaining...he was sort of an early day Tom Paul.  ;)

I also came upon a photo today that he took of the Belfield Golf Club's Clubhouse that was posted in "Outing" Magazine, circa 1899.   

You mentioned an 1898 trip to Scotland...it makes me wonder how many trips abroad he took over the years and what ships he might have sailed on.   Unfortunately, as we learned earlier, the records in that regard are woefully incomplete. 

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #243 on: October 28, 2008, 08:36:42 PM »
Tom

The elusive Cricketer is actually flourishing well throughout the world.

I have read reports that there are lean pickings in North America. Apparently due to the lack of YORKERS (surprisingly in very short supply on the East Coast) and the inability of LBW, not to mention the famous GOOGLY, OVER, NIGHTWATCHMAN or the most rare of all, a MAIDEN.

Plus some say that it may be difficult to hold a 5 day attention span, as 5 hours on a golf course seem to test most of the population. Who knows?

Off to bed to dream of Maidens - don't tell the wife

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #244 on: October 28, 2008, 09:17:37 PM »
Don't you fret, Melveyn, one of these days or years us world-changing and world-beating Americans are going to turn our tired and lonely eyes back to where some of us came from and when we do----WATCH OUT WORLD---it will be a new age and a real renaissance which we will quite rapidly (which is our way) take into the next upswing cycle and into the future and on and on. You think you bloks have linksland golf or the best of it----we will MAKE true linksland and linksland golf like the world has never dreamed of before, and we will even make Mother Nature our friend and ally so she will never fuck with us again if we kid around and drink with her. Everybody has their price, even Mother Nature. Now that we have destroyed the world's economy, there is new hope and a new world coming!

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #245 on: October 28, 2008, 09:24:52 PM »
Melvyn,

How timely of you to drop by.   ;D

I was just reading Tillinghast's accounts of his time spent with Old Tom, and along with the 1890 and 1899 manifests that have been found, Tilly mentions visiting with your ancestor in 1896, 1898, and also mentions that he made his last visit to St. Andrews in 1901, when he took that wonderful picture of Old Tom.  I'm not sure the year he wrote the article, or if he ever visited again after 1901.

In any case, it does make me a bit sad from a research standpoint to see how difficult it is to accurately trace some of these events.   

One thing is clear which I've learned in trying to dig up early history.   The absence of information should never been taken as affirmation of speculation.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 10:46:46 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #246 on: October 28, 2008, 10:21:24 PM »
"One thing is clear which I've learned in trying to dig up early history.   The absence of information should never been taken as affirmation of speculation"


Hmmm. That sounds like pretty sage advice. Problem is it seems to me accepted speculations seem to come our way so often in the absence of REAL information. Probably the best example recently was Tom MacWood's statement that he'd 'figured out' the identity of "Far and Sure"' in the manner and method he stated on post #26 on this thread he had figured it out. It seems to me that was basically just throwing a speculation out there as a fact. The problem became that he was questioned about it and he steadfastly refused to respond to a single one of those questions, which I am sorry to say only led me to believe that his statement that he knew the identity of "Far and Sure" was a lie in the first place. Of course he could prove me wrong by producing evidence that he really does know the identity of "Far and Sure" which to date he's refused to do OR else he could've simply stated on here that he may've been wrong to state such a thing in the first place. Now it appears he is gone and we may never know.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #247 on: October 28, 2008, 10:35:44 PM »
"One thing is clear which I've learned in trying to dig up early history.   The absence of information should never been taken as affirmation of speculation"


Hmmm. That sounds like pretty sage advice. Problem is it seems to me accepted speculations seem to come our way so often in the absence of REAL information. Probably the best example recently was Tom MacWood's statement that he'd 'figured out' the identity of "Far and Sure"' in the manner and method he stated on post #26 on this thread he had figured it out. It seems to me that was basically just throwing a speculation out there as a fact. The problem became that he was questioned about it and he steadfastly refused to respond to a single one of those questions, which I am sorry to say only led me to believe that his statement that he knew the identity of "Far and Sure" was a lie in the first place. Of course he could prove me wrong by producing evidence that he really does know the identity of "Far and Sure" which to date he's refused to do OR else he could've simply stated on here that he may've been wrong to state such a thing in the first place. Now it appears he is gone and we may never know.

Tom,

Apparently he told Phil that the ship in question was the Siberian, which had troubles in March of 1886.

I've read the passenger list, and unless Tom MacWood is going to come back and tell us that "Far and Sure" is either Hy Dick or BJ Shanks, I think that was clearly a bluff on his part.  ;)

Sort of like the Willie Campbell Myopia deal...

It's a shame, because finding this stuff is not easy, and false leads waste everyone's time and energies.

By the way...do you think I can sell Jesse Jackson my new line;

"The absence of information should never been taken as affirmation of speculation"  ;)

Somehow I can hear him when I read that.  ;)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #248 on: October 28, 2008, 10:53:42 PM »
Just my luck, even the Maiden in my dream has a headache.

Tom

When will you guys realise that without us you will never win – its all about being part of a team, working together. You redesign Nature yet we work with Nature. Artificial is acceptable to you but natural is what we seek and crave for.

What screwed the world is not American but the greed of ALL Bankers and those who play the market for power and control. We the ordinary guys do not matter, our pain is of no concern to these parasites.

But then this is a GCA site so I will just say there is only one Home of Golf one place where the Heart and the Spirit of the Game can be found and that is St Andrews and I truly hope it will continue to embrace all golfers. Play TOC and feel the history, remembering all those whose footsteps you are following and explain the feeling of walking towards the 18th Green. IMMHO no other course can say ‘Welcome Home’ in such a way.

Mike

Historical information should be open and fee to all. We have the right to suggest our opinions, but not the right to promote untruths just because it suits our purpose. The importance of history is to learn and understand, but that has to be based upon facts. Those facts may not be written down or at least not yet come to light, but verbal history is also important and it should not dismissed out of hand.

Homer and his epic story of Troy was not recorded by the pen for some 400-500 years after the destruction of the city, yet in just the last few years a German Team has proved that the site is indeed that of Troy. Written confirmation was found 100 years ago in the Hittites burnt out capitol dating from the 1220’s BC but only came to light in the last 20 years or so. Plus new information on the old wells and the cities outer wall circuit. So there may well be an article or two waiting to be found on Tilly and others. 

If it were easy everyone would be undertaking research. It can be hard and time consuming but it can also be very rewarding. Keep searching, my own Family Tree is now back to 1649 and more information has just been found.     


TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #249 on: October 28, 2008, 11:16:36 PM »
"I think that was clearly a bluff on his part."

BLUFF?



« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 04:53:17 AM by TEPaul »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back