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Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2008, 06:12:21 PM »
Rob:

The restoration has been an ENORMOUS success, I think.  You all have taken a course that was great and made it GREAT.  I am not kidding in that it is by far and away in the best state I have ever seen it, both in terms of form and function, in the 25+ years I have been playing the course.

But regarding #3, while I get that putting it back to how Mackenzie had it (or close enough) where practical has great merit - and it is very practical and wise to do it on #3 - would you not agree that the EFFECTS of this (which are what I describe above, if I have it correct, and what Bill alludes to) are also a good thing?

That is, I have to believe Mackenzie intended that to be a driver if one wants to reach the green.  Adding those 18 yards restores that, for a lot of people anyway.

Or perhaps am I overthinking this?

TH

rchesnut

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2008, 06:47:12 PM »
I think the effects are good, in that MacKenzie wanted this hole to be a par 3 1/2, requiring a driver off the tee for good players.   So yes, that's a good thing, and that made the decision to put back the old tee an easy one.   

The club had a similar issue on Hole #6, the par 5 that had become a little short...again, there was an original MacKenzie back tee that had been lost over the decades, and putting it back lengthened the hole to 565 uphill...that new tee really improved the hole by protecting it against modern long hitters, and it also brought back a tee that MacKenzie himself had designed (on the very hole that ran by his backyard).  Easy decision. 

If there had never been a back tee on #3, I don't think the club would have created one just because players hit the ball longer today.  The hole was plenty long even at the old distance of 217, and the club has been reluctant to create new back tees that were not in MacKenzie's original layout.  I can think of only 1 place where that's been done for a regularly used tee, hole #13. 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2008, 06:52:26 PM »
Rob, I remember King's Putter II at Pasa, when all four members of my foursome hit #3 with fairway woods from the 216 yard tee.  I hit driver last time from that tee, everyone else hit long irons which says more about me these days than the hole.

But everybody has to hit FW or driver from that back tee, it restores the intent of the original design.  i daresay few if any played from the tips in Mackenzie's day.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2008, 10:09:54 AM »
Rob - very well-explained, many thanks.

Pasatiempo doesn't need more distance to keep a challenge for the big boys anyway - it just needs ME to set the pins for them.

 ;)

Tony Gorski

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2008, 06:49:31 PM »
Rob - very well-explained, many thanks.

Pasatiempo doesn't need more distance to keep a challenge for the big boys anyway - it just needs ME to set the pins for them.

 ;)


You've peaked my interest Tom.  I'm curious on where you'd place the pins for the big boys.  Would love to hear......at least on a few of them (but would love to hear all 18 if you had the time).

Ski.


David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2008, 07:03:36 PM »
On 3, put it up front and it's VERY, VERY tough.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2008, 07:56:52 PM »
Ski - come on, it's not that tough to imagine.  Damn near every green has a spot where they wouldn't make many putts and/or would have a very tough time getting close to.

Think front tongue on 16... if not on one of the sides of the slopes.  If the goal is to make them shoot high scores, it would be VERY easy to achieve.

Notice I never said I'd do FAIR pins.

TH

Tony Gorski

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2008, 09:01:22 PM »
Ski - come on, it's not that tough to imagine.  Damn near every green has a spot where they wouldn't make many putts and/or would have a very tough time getting close to.

Think front tongue on 16... if not on one of the sides of the slopes.  If the goal is to make them shoot high scores, it would be VERY easy to achieve.

Notice I never said I'd do FAIR pins.

TH

Ahhhh yes...........the fair thing always gets in the way.  Of course it's easy to imagine the typical spots.....I thought you may have had a secret sauce.

On a side note, I happen to love Pasa and am tired of the "it's not long enough" argument that seems to be commonplace these last few years.  If we're not careful, the total number of courses in the country may go down (due to market/credit crisis, finances, etc.), but the total real estate used will remain the same because the courses that will still be around will all be 8,000+ yards long.




Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2008, 09:08:26 PM »
Well  Ski, Pasa tends to kick my ass sideways even when I play well, so it's sure as heck not too short for me.  But in terms of an absolute challenge to the absolute best players, maybe it is too short.  In any case it's also definitely one of my favorite courses also.

In terms of the pins, I have no secret sauce - but Rob Chestnut might.  Although I was thinking about the hellishly unfair pins like I mentioned re 16, I bet he could come up with 18 pins that were "fair" in that the ball would stay put in a three foot circle around the hole, but would still give any golfer all the challenge he needs.  Think way back right on 1, front right or way back right on 2, very front on 3, etc. etc. There are places to "tuck" a pin on every hole.  Of course this would get to be a little absurd, but fun would not be the point of the exercise.

TH

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2008, 10:12:18 PM »
On 3, put it up front and it's VERY, VERY tough.

Not so bad if you are just short and then it's a pretty easy uphill chip.  Very difficult from above the hole.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2008, 10:23:15 PM »
On 3, put it up front and it's VERY, VERY tough.

Not so bad if you are just short and then it's a pretty easy uphill chip.  Very difficult from above the hole.

Whoa... maybe easy for you, Bill.  I'll take a back pin every time.  That steep face means one can't really run it up at all... getting a chip close to that front pin takes a precision I surely don't have very often.  Then add to it the inevitable downhill putts you mention, and well... I think front is the toughest overall pin on that green.

In the Pain Invitational I am contemplating, I'd advocate a front pin on 3.

But again we need Rob to settle this!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2008, 10:38:57 PM »
On 3, put it up front and it's VERY, VERY tough.

Not so bad if you are just short and then it's a pretty easy uphill chip.  Very difficult from above the hole.

Whoa... maybe easy for you, Bill.  I'll take a back pin every time.  That steep face means one can't really run it up at all... getting a chip close to that front pin takes a precision I surely don't have very often.  Then add to it the inevitable downhill putts you mention, and well... I think front is the toughest overall pin on that green.

In the Pain Invitational I am contemplating, I'd advocate a front pin on 3.

But again we need Rob to settle this!

I was just reminiscing about the 3 I made at the KP in April from just short left. 

However, from that point on it was all Tim Bert en route to a 5&4 win.  :o

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2008, 10:46:05 PM »
On 3, put it up front and it's VERY, VERY tough.

Not so bad if you are just short and then it's a pretty easy uphill chip.  Very difficult from above the hole.

Whoa... maybe easy for you, Bill.  I'll take a back pin every time.  That steep face means one can't really run it up at all... getting a chip close to that front pin takes a precision I surely don't have very often.  Then add to it the inevitable downhill putts you mention, and well... I think front is the toughest overall pin on that green.

In the Pain Invitational I am contemplating, I'd advocate a front pin on 3.

But again we need Rob to settle this!

I was just reminiscing about the 3 I made at the KP in April from just short left. 

However, from that point on it was all Tim Bert en route to a 5&4 win.  :o

From that point on...  No credit for my "putt out of the bunker" par to tie the hole on #3?  That might have been the momentum shifter.   ;)

rchesnut

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2008, 12:57:51 AM »
The "Pasatiempo Painful (but Somewhat Fair) Pins" list:

#1 -- back right
#2 -- front right
#3 -- back right or middle left (just above the crest of the hill)
#4 -- back left (not really hellish, just tough to read)
#5 -- back left
#6 -- back
#7 -- back
#8 -- back right
#9 -- front left

#10 -- back right
#11 -- just about anywhere
#12 -- front right
#13 -- back right
#14 -- back right
#15 -- back right
#16 -- middle left
#17 -- back right
#18 -- left (but just about anywhere will do)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2008, 09:01:47 AM »
On 3, put it up front and it's VERY, VERY tough.

Not so bad if you are just short and then it's a pretty easy uphill chip.  Very difficult from above the hole.

Whoa... maybe easy for you, Bill.  I'll take a back pin every time.  That steep face means one can't really run it up at all... getting a chip close to that front pin takes a precision I surely don't have very often.  Then add to it the inevitable downhill putts you mention, and well... I think front is the toughest overall pin on that green.

In the Pain Invitational I am contemplating, I'd advocate a front pin on 3.

But again we need Rob to settle this!

I was just reminiscing about the 3 I made at the KP in April from just short left. 

However, from that point on it was all Tim Bert en route to a 5&4 win.  :o

From that point on...  No credit for my "putt out of the bunker" par to tie the hole on #3?  That might have been the momentum shifter.   ;)

I guess I forgot about that one.......what I remember mostly was young Mr. Wall's introduction to Mackenzie false fronts at #3.  ;)

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2008, 09:37:56 AM »
The "Pasatiempo Painful (but Somewhat Fair) Pins" list:

#1 -- back right
#2 -- front right
#3 -- back right or middle left (just above the crest of the hill)
#4 -- back left (not really hellish, just tough to read)
#5 -- back left
#6 -- back
#7 -- back
#8 -- back right
#9 -- front left

#10 -- back right
#11 -- just about anywhere
#12 -- front right
#13 -- back right
#14 -- back right
#15 -- back right
#16 -- middle left
#17 -- back right
#18 -- left (but just about anywhere will do)


NOW we're talking!

Thanks, Rob. Want the college boys to struggle to get in the low 70s?  There you have it.

 ;)

Tony Gorski

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2008, 10:00:56 AM »
The "Pasatiempo Painful (but Somewhat Fair) Pins" list:

#1 -- back right
#2 -- front right
#3 -- back right or middle left (just above the crest of the hill)
#4 -- back left (not really hellish, just tough to read)
#5 -- back left
#6 -- back
#7 -- back
#8 -- back right
#9 -- front left

#10 -- back right
#11 -- just about anywhere
#12 -- front right
#13 -- back right
#14 -- back right
#15 -- back right
#16 -- middle left
#17 -- back right
#18 -- left (but just about anywhere will do)


Excellent Rob.  Thanks for taking the time. 

#3 - love it
#8 - very tough pin due to the ridge
#9 - tucked behind the bunker is how I played it last......love it.
#10 - i assume back right is more difficult than back left (over bunkers) due to the undulations front right of the green?
#16 - just curious, is middle left more of a challenge due to reads than middle/right front?

Thanks again Rob.

Ski.


rchesnut

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2008, 11:44:15 AM »
Ski, the back right pin on 10 is rough because it sits on a shelf in that corner, and the whole green tilts from back right to front left.  There's almost no way to get an approach shot close because approach shots get pushed left and to the front of the green, away from that shelf.  You can't really aim right of that flag because it's perilously close to the cart path, tree and road.  Back left on 10 isn't easy, but you can get close to it by running it up the "ramp" on the front and letting the green's natural contours move the ball toward the left. 

On 16, there are 4 distinct shelves.   The front (bottom) area is not used for a pin...arguably, you could put a pin there, but it's a small area, and since many balls hit onto this green end up at the bottom anyway, I'm not sure it's the hardest.  The second shelf is middle/right, and it's the birdie pin...it gives you a great backboard to use and it's not difficult.  The third shelf is a little higher up, middle left.  It's a bear...it's a small area, protected by a bunker in front and the road left, and it's very hard to get an approach shot to stay there.   Putts to this shelf from other areas of the green are rough, and can result in balls rolling down to the front.  No doubt about it, this is the pin that the members dread.  Last area is the whole back third of the green, at the top.  It's hard too, but at least it's a large area, relatively flat, that approach shots can receive. 

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2008, 11:48:15 AM »
Rob:

I'd agree that back right on 10 would be the toughest spot to make a 3.... impossible to get close, as you say.  But the smart player could just aim for middle of the green, and since it's an uphill putt with not that much contour, make a fairly painless (for that hole) 4, wouldn't you say?

I'm thinking a pin tucked front left, while easier to get closer, also invites some bad misses (left is also deader than dead, short is never going to be easy), with no safe way to play it as anything put in the middle of the green leaves a damn hard downhill sidehill putt.

So whaddya say we give them one of each of these?  It's now a 36 hole event of pain.

 ;)

rchesnut

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2008, 03:34:36 PM »
The only problem with front left on 10 is that there's a bit of a backboard on the left edge of that green, plus the general back to front slope that acts as a bit of a backboard.  So yes, a front left pin might tempt them to go at the pin and make an expensive mistake short, but a smart player could just aim right of the pin, even above the hole, and though it's a downhill putt, it's not awful.  There's a lot of slope in that back right corner, it's not a guaranteed 2 putt.  Neither pin is a bargain, I'd say play 36 and we're set for 10 between the two.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2008, 03:36:28 PM »
Rob - that makes sense to me.  In the end back right must be overall tougher.  I just kinda fear front left also.  You know what too...a  dead middle pin right in the middle of the slope would make for some scary putts... if one could keep this in the "fair" realm.

That is one hell of a green on one hell of a golf hole.

TH

rchesnut

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2008, 04:19:53 PM »
Middle would indeed be scary...but I was trying to abide by the "fair" requirement.  :)   

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2008, 04:23:24 PM »
Rob - consider this:  what if we slowed the greens down JUST to the perfect speed such that balls would stay on slopes for the most part... but not TOO slow as to make it silly in that direction.... and then gave the MOST awful pins imaginable, throwing the "fair"standard completely out the window?

Man you could get some CRAZY pins in this scenario.  And it would be pretty fun, in a masochistic way.

To this end, I am not kidding when I say the course was absolute PERFECTION when we played a few days ago.  The greens were the perfect speed, not too fast, not to slow, allowing for all possible "fair" pins.  The fairways were firm and fast, more so than ever.  Rough was thick but not too much so... man perfection really is the right word.

And I know you have more you want to do... it's very exciting to watch.

TH

Steve Pieracci

Re: Pasatiempo #3 - old back tee restored
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2008, 04:26:11 PM »
On 3, put it up front and it's VERY, VERY tough.

Not so bad if you are just short and then it's a pretty easy uphill chip.  Very difficult from above the hole.

Jordan Wall and  I can attest that just short of the green to the up front pin is "not so good". 

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