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Scott Sander

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Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« on: October 14, 2008, 10:59:44 AM »
(OK, I'll be the first to admit I occasionally scan Page Six in the NY Post.)

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10142008/gossip/pagesix/golf_not_good_fore_eatery_133487.htm


Not that it'll happen in this case, but such situations have certainly spoiled some sublime holes.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 11:11:24 AM »
Somebody should sue this guy on the basis of what he serves at his "restaurant" (slice joint). Growing up, we used to use a more colorful moniker for Villa Maria which decorum prohibits me from repeating here, but if you use your imagination it shouldn't be all that difficult to figure out.

Sam Maryland

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 11:21:13 AM »
that is unbelievable. 

WFGC member's should organize a picket of Villa Maria...

SM

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 11:34:06 AM »
Does the course predate the restaurant?

If so, in GA it's pretty clear that the restaurant assumed the risk of errant golf balls from the adjacent property.

Other states may view the assumption of risk issue differently.

Bob

Phil_the_Author

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 12:22:41 PM »
The most incredible part of this article to me was what Donald Trump said. This gentleman who is trying so hard to convince the golfing world that his passion for the game is pure and honorable is quoted as saying that Winged Foot East has "been there for 100 years..."

Donald, may I suggest that you purchase a copy of the Winged Foot History one of these days!

Mike Sweeney

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 12:35:53 PM »
Does the course predate the restaurant?

If so, in GA it's pretty clear that the restaurant assumed the risk of errant golf balls from the adjacent property.

Other states may view the assumption of risk issue differently.

Bob

Just to be clear, his restaurant is a few miles away in Larchmont. It is his house that is next to the sixth hole of WFE. I would assume he bought the house after the opening of WF.

I think the Mayor of Mamoroneck gets a courtesy membership to WF along with a bunch of priest. With God and Country on its side, I would not worry about WF too much,

Jay Flemma

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 05:43:05 PM »
Someone should post the case here.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 05:44:16 PM »
Someone should post the case here.

Your a lawyer Jay, by all means give us the breakdown...

Jay Flemma

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 05:47:30 PM »
I'm curious to see it...it makes little sense sitting here far away in Manhattan, but I was just there a couple weeks ago...I saw it first hand.  You'd have to overclub pretty significantly to nail that house.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2008, 07:20:17 PM »
Scott,

A club I'm familiar with had a similar problem years ago.

Despite the fact that the owner of the house bought it, knowing that it was next to a golf course that had been there for decades and decades, restraining orders were issued and the club had to build an expansive 40 foot high net system.

I had recommended, to Board members, that the club to buy the house when it came up for sale so that Superintendents or club managers could reside there, as both a perk and a convenience.

The response was that the seller wanted a few dollars more than those negotiating for the club wanted to pay, so the club didn't buy it.

In retrospect, the price was cheap and the ensuing aggravation and financial factors ..... very significant.  The club made a huge mistake by not buying it.

I'd recommend the same strategy for WF, because there will always be an ongoing liability, which could be very expensive, especially if an errant ball should strike someone on that property.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2008, 07:35:05 PM »
I know of two such cases.

In the first, a lawyer bought a house which was obviously much too close to a golf hole on a very old course, and then sued the club to move the hole in question.  He won his judgment ... but the club did manage to have the "safety situation" of the new hole enscribed on the deed so a future homeowner could not claim ignorance.

In the second, a young child was struck by a tee shot on a hole which was dangerously close to the backyard in a planned unit development.  The homeowner/parents sued not only the golf course architect and the developer, but also the real estate agent who sold them the home ... and got a BIG judgment against the real estate broker.

I know everyone in America thinks this is a clear-cut case because the golf course was there first ... but it's not.  In fact, in most of the world, a few golf balls over the property line are enough to require that the golf hole be changed (or a foolproof net be put up).  This has been the demise of fine golf holes at Royal Melbourne East and at Moortown.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 07:39:41 PM »
Tom Doak,

The courts have clearly transitioned from protecting the attractive nuisance that existed prior to the home, to protecting the homeowner.

One of the things about clubs that I NEVER understood, was why they sold off their perimeter property, especially to developers, without inserting or insisting upon a buffer zone.

It's blatant stupidity on the club's/board's part.

Jay Flemma

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 07:54:48 PM »
I know of two such cases.

In the first, a lawyer bought a house which was obviously much too close to a golf hole on a very old course, and then sued the club to move the hole in question.  He won his judgment ... but the club did manage to have the "safety situation" of the new hole enscribed on the deed so a future homeowner could not claim ignorance.

In the second, a young child was struck by a tee shot on a hole which was dangerously close to the backyard in a planned unit development.  The homeowner/parents sued not only the golf course architect and the developer, but also the real estate agent who sold them the home ... and got a BIG judgment against the real estate broker.

I know everyone in America thinks this is a clear-cut case because the golf course was there first ... but it's not.  In fact, in most of the world, a few golf balls over the property line are enough to require that the golf hole be changed (or a foolproof net be put up).  This has been the demise of fine golf holes at Royal Melbourne East and at Moortown.

Dear Tom:

The CRITICAL questions here are, 1) "where were those cases brought," (what state), and 2) "Were they in the Federal or state court system," because the Judges there are markedly different.

Here in NYC, state court judges are so slammed, the calendars so crowded, they really push settlement and fairness sometimes goes by the books. Moreover, the law is radically different from state to state and the same case in NYC might get the opposite answer than if brought in Cali.

Next, if there are ever 1) litigants from different states and more than $75,000 in controversy or 2) any Federal law in question, the Fed Court system kicks in, with judges appointed for long terms, not required to run for re-election.  These judges are like night and day to their counterparts, generally much more learned and with quicker, slightly lighter calendars.  A fed court judge is more likely to enjoy taking the time to properly unravel a nice complicated knot.

I think the case should be fought because it's bad for golf design to have results like this - especially at such an important club, but I need to see the legal arguments presented.

I am getting the decision soon.  I trust this will get overturned or reasonably settled quickly.  Perhaps the decision was meant to force a settlement quickly - this is state court after all. 

Golf being there first is not always the answer, but it should be.  The problem is that juries can get hoodwinked into whatever sounds better in court.  I can't believe the agent lost a judgment unless they affirmatively covered up the danger living in the house, or he had a really deep pocket and the jury felt "this kid's hurt, someone has to pay."

We desperately need tort reform in this country, but ATLA (American Trial Lawyers Association fights that with the last drop of everyone's blood.

We should go to the Brit system - loser pays the winners legal fees.

I guess it shows one more thing, golf and courts don't mix.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 01:52:41 AM »
Actually, the guy seems to have a pretty good point according to the article posted on Shackelford. There used to be 3 big trees between his house and the green. Then the club cut down the trees and balls started landing on his property.

Assuming all that's true, even though the golf course was there before he bought the house, the golf course seems to have changed in a meaningful way since then.

If that article is all true, I kinda side with the guy on this one.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2008, 03:19:23 AM »
Actually, the guy seems to have a pretty good point according to the article posted on Shackelford. There used to be 3 big trees between his house and the green. Then the club cut down the trees and balls started landing on his property.

Assuming all that's true, even though the golf course was there before he bought the house, the golf course seems to have changed in a meaningful way since then.

If that article is all true, I kinda side with the guy on this one.

Me too Matt.  Because someone knowingly buys a house near a golf course doesn't mean he waves his right to safety.  Its the duty of the club to make sure neighbours are safe as it is the activity of the club which causes the potential problem.  To suggest folks shouldn't buy near a course is daft.  If that were the case, clubs should be required to buy extra land as a buffer, as Pat suggests clubs should do voluntarily as part of a self-protection scheme. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2008, 09:30:03 AM »
I agree with Matt and Sean also.  The guy bought the house that he knew was beside the golf course BUT had a nice barrier of trees.  I am sure he knew the occasional ball would land in his yard...no one is stupid enough to think otherwise.  But things have changed.  The club intentionally cut the trees down.  Now hundreds of balls end up in his yard, FIVE windows broken, kids can't play in the backyard, constant trespassers, and expensive vet bill for his dog.  The club caused the increase in broken windows, no?   This seems pretty straightforward to me.
 
A better legal question is what if the trees died and fell over instead of being intentional cut down.  (I wanted to go to law school ;D

Scott Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2008, 09:52:49 AM »
Here's a question:

Would the law take into consideration changes in ball and club technology?

I don't know WF well enough to know whether it is the case in this circumstance, but I can definitely envision a situation in which a homeowner bought propery not so long ago when a 300 yard miss was unheard of but now finds himself under frequent assault.

Jay Flemma

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2008, 03:32:07 PM »

We desperately need tort reform in this country, but ATLA (American Trial Lawyers Association fights that with the last drop of everyone's blood.

To my understanding, isn't this the pot calling the kettle, black?

I guess it shows one more thing, golf and courts don't mix.

Golf and frivolous, ambulance chasing lawyers don't either.

Your understanding is wrong...Charles...I'm a contracts lawyer.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2008, 05:04:35 PM »
Jay,

What does this case have to do with tort reform? It seems to me that this homeowner has a legit case. It's a far from a frivolous case. If anyone here dares to bring up the McDonalds case, read this:

TRUTH ABOUT MCDONALD'S CASE

There is a lot of hype about the McDonalds' scalding coffee case. No one is in favor of frivolous cases or outlandish results; however, it is important to understand some points that were not reported in most of the stories about the case. McDonalds coffee was not only hot, it was scalding - capable of almost instantaneous destruction of skin, flesh and muscle. Here's the whole story.

Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds' coffee in February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that was served in a styrofoam cup at the drive through window of a local McDonalds.

After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case, often charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.) Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled into her lap.

The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds refused.

During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.

McDonalds also said during discovery that, based on a consultants advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.

Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

Plaintiffs' expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony showed that as the temperature decreased toward 155 degrees, the extent of the burn relative to the temperature decreases exponentially. Thus, if Liebeck's spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.

McDonalds asserted that customers buy coffee on their way to work or home, intending to consume it there. However, the company's own research showed that customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving.

McDonalds also argued that consumers know coffee is hot and that its customers want it that way. The company admitted its customers were unaware that they could suffer third degree burns from the coffee and that a statement on the side of the cup was not a "warning" but a "reminder" since the location of the writing would not warn customers of the hazard.

The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. This amount was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20 percent at fault in the spill. The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonalds' coffee sales.

Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees Fahrenheit.

The trial court subsequently reduced the punitive award to $480,000 - or three times compensatory damages - even though the judge called McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful.

After an appeal, the parties reached a confidential settlement.

excerpted from ATLA fact sheet. ©1995, 1996 by Consumer Attorneys of California

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jay Flemma

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2008, 05:10:43 PM »
There has to be a better solution than shutting down the hole.

Why is there no responsibility on his guy for moving into a house where he can get hit with balls?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2008, 05:12:06 PM »
Jay,

Read reply 16 above.


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jay Flemma

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2008, 05:15:33 PM »
Steve:  When I get the case, I'll review it then.  Until we see what that says, we're all guessing, even the NYT.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2008, 06:17:32 PM »
I'm a lawyer, and I can pretty much assure everybody that there is no good legal solution, only a golf-architecture solution.

This is what I think is the Google satellite image for the property.  If I am seeing this correctly, the trees that were cut down occupied the patch of brownish dirt near the tee.  Those are some funky semi-shanks if they are hitting the plaintiff's house.  John Buczek, some of your guys need a lesson!
"Thousands of balls" on the plaintiff's property ?  How much play does Winged Foot East get? 
"Outings have been disrupted"?  How many outings are played at Winged Foot?  How do I get on that outing list?

Anyway, for your viewing pleasure...

http://www.zabasearch.com/maps/?sname1=ANTHONY%20PECORA&sname=ANTHONY%20J%20PECORA&first=ANTHONY&last=PECORA&middle=J&state=NY&address=6%20MAGNETTI%20CIR&city=MAMARONECK&zipcode=10543&&cm=&cy=&phone=
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 06:35:58 PM by Chuck Brown »

Jay Flemma

Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2008, 09:36:25 PM »
man that feature is great.  if you zoom in you can really get a great picture.

There still had to be a better solution than shutting the hole.  What happened to you break it you bought it?  How about blaming the guy who hit the shot?

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot legal dustup... (not O/T)
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2008, 10:25:07 PM »
Clubs are under no legal duty to eliminate risks inherent in the game, but they do have the duty not to increase the risks. That’s exactly what this court believe happened when 3 trees were removed from the course opening up an area for a wayward shot, which normally "could" have been deflected by the tree.

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