[Anthony Gray]

 

     
      OK gentlemen educate me.

    1 The original is now someones backyard?

    2 Are there writings that prove Macdonald visited the site in person?

    3 If Macdonald got the Redan from North Berwick then could he have been influeced  by the green on 16 when making the Biarritz?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Anthony or may I call you Tony

1 Yes  (but I think whoose, is open to debate).

2  See below, even George Bhato doesn't know.

3  Well, yes say some but...

From earlier this year

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33552.msg670057.html#msg670057


Even earlier.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?board=1%3baction=display%3bthreadid=21926


Thanks to Sebastien Dhassay I have an aerial of the area and will shortly post it with my indication of where I think the hole was.

There was a recent thread on a sideways Biarritz and a  quick study of Georges drawing (second thread) will show that the original hole played 'sideways' for most of it's life.

[TEPaul]

I have nothing really to point to as evidence but I think Macdonald (Raynor) changed his tune about the biarritz hole and what it could be or would be in America somewhere between around 1908 and 1912.

The reason I say that is he said in his book that he just couldn't find the right spot for it at NGLA but he did design one in 1912 or 1913 at Piping Rock.

It seems he might have had in mind at NGLA a landform site something like the original hole in France that played across a bay or steep gorge or other dramatic carry feature but rather quickly decided to adapt the hole and the name to rather flat land with an immense green with a large swale in its midst ala the 16th at NB.

The differences between the Raynor biarritz at Fishers and the biarritz across the lake at Yale and the rest of the Macdonald/Raynor Biarritzes on relatively flat land just seems too stark to not consider this mentioned transition in concept and application for this particular "named" hole.

[George_Bahto]

Tony: The Biarritz in France played sideways only after the tee area was to be used for the hotel (at some point) but also (probably) because the tee shot was too hard for the every day “retail golfer” who visited the spa.

CBM was influenced by the hole from the original tee.

On virtually all the Biarritz holes the three men built there was only a SINGLE tee which in most cases the holes averaged over 230-yards with just a few exceptions at courses where there might have been a request for a shorter version because of an older membership (Blind Brook comes to mind), or there was just not enuf room for the “usual” length.

Forward tees were added by membership/committees and such as time went on.

[BCrosby]

George -

Was the original Biarritz downhill?

Bob

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