News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Melvyn Morrow

Blind Holes – are these disappearing because of our reliance on Distance/Yardage Information?

I totally enjoy playing new or unfamiliar courses, as the unknown offers more of a challenge which in turn converts into fun factor. A blind hole is just as rewarding, particularly if the Green Keeper his highly creative in varying his choice of hole position.

Has the modern Architect been forced into minimising this feature on today’s course?

Has the modern need for distance/yardage information and pin location resulted in the demise of this type of great hole?

Golf is about the challenge of overcoming obstacles and hazards place in the way to the hole. The game is all about the uncertainties, not just land based but airborne, yet the modern courses have slowly given way to make the golfers life easy. We have the carts, then the cart tracks, to make the modern golfer feel at ease with himself, perhaps to disperse the thought that he is lazy, the introduction of the No Walking Course requiring the use of carts. No blind holes as electronic distance aids are of little help unless you see the flag.

In short, is there any challenge apart from reducing ones score, is there any fun in what seems to be the modern approach of wham bam thank you mam golf.

There appears no time for total enjoyment of the game itself, we seem to start the game as the early motor racing drivers running to their cars, merely running for the carts, fast down the tracks off the fairway to the ball, quick play with the toys or search for yardage info from the course, select the club gained from the outside source, hit the ball (to the exact distance specified – Oh yes how many are that good?), jump on the cart down the path again to repeat the same procedure until you are on the green – perhaps that is when you have time to understand the hole you have just played, no of course not, you are on your way back to the cart noting your score. Hole after hole this is the way modern golf is played, no time for the golfer to take in the course, the environment or actually understand the game being played. Machines to do the walking, machines or markers to do the measurement, all the golfer has to do is hit the ball, yet because of all that is going on around him, he misses the very thing and reason for playing the game in the first place – the fun of it, the enjoyment of the outdoors and the natural world around him.

The Blind Hole forces the golfer to take responsibility for his actions – it may not stop the cart, but his distance aids will be of little use as no pin in sight, distance markers of very little use unless you are aware of the location of the flag. In other words the golfer has to take control, he/she has to think of the shot, the surroundings and the hidden hazards hopefully cleverly positioned by the architect. The course suddenly becomes alive, the challenge awaits you and you remember why you
took up golf in the first place.

So I encourage all of you to play courses with a blind hole or two, to persuade the architects to reintroduce the practice. If nothing else, a good designed blind hole will force the golfer in you to reappear. For a few minutes in every game you play the game as it was originally played when it became popular. I do believe that if you give it a chance you will totally enjoy the experience of you alone against the hole.

I believe that the reliance on distance/yardage information is one of the reasons why blind holes are not as popular as they once were.
     
 

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Interesting conclusion. However I find the fault should be placed on the golfer. Their subjectivity on preferences which eases the journey is the root cause. The need for yardages and lines of sights are symptoms of their game mind culminating in their cries of "unfairness" have led to the anti-strategy created by modern GCA's whose desire is to please the masses. This commercialism has led to focusing on bottom lines. Cart path justification is rooted in squeezing revenue after heavy rains because the sad reality is most are not in the golf business they are in the cart rental business. BTW your rant reminds me of what I perceive CBM railed against a century ago. Well done!
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Anthony Gray

 

  Blind holes disappearing?  Yes... Because they require imagination....And what modern golfer wants imagination?


   Great topic.....Captian my captian


 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
The issue of liability is another reason for modern avoidance of blind holes and blind shots.

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0

The interesting thing is, despite the availabilty of yardage information, blind holes still create a colossal amount of doubt in players' minds. The brain still trusts what the eyes see more then the yardage information.

But as Tommy Armour (was he the first) said, a hole is only blind the first time you play it.



There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
1. Safety
2. Uncertainty

Modern golfers are obsessed with score, and I think that acts against blind tee shots. People want to be able to follow the flight of their ball so they know where in the rough it landed or which tree it was tracking towards.

If you can't see over a hill it is very hard to know where it ended up if it goes off the target line.

Interesting enough, I often hit better drives on blind tee shots - not sure if it is the focus factor - ie - hit it over that pole or rock - but it is very satisfying to get to the top of a hill on a blind shot and see your ball in the middle of the fairway

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rob Rigg, I believe the better drive is made because of the heroic dynamic. It is inspiring and overly satisfying, in that order.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Melvyn Morrow

Rob

So when you find you hit the fairway is that not enjoyable?

If clubs and architects are worried about liability and safety issues and if this is the main reason for minimising these holes then why in hell’s name can’t the electronic companies come up with some toy to let those on the blind side know you are clear.  I have come across bells on many occasions, old fashion but they work but then my game allows me the time to be considerate so I ring the bell when I am clear. Expect that too complicated for those using a Range Finder  :D

Those who really ‘ENJOY’ golf, love blind holes as it bring into play that thing called uncertainty, that magic ingredient which makes all the difference.  8)

Anyway its part of the hazards one expects in golf and should be included in all courses. Perhaps it’s got nothing to do with safety/liability issues but the uncertain for the scratch golfer is just too high, as it may ruin his scorecard if he gets it wrong. :-[ :-[ :-[



   

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn, I own both a rangefinder and a low handicap.....and I'm all for blind shots on courses I've never played.  Especially Alps greens, they're a boatload of fun.

I will say though, blind second shots on a par 5 are extremely dangerous.  Blind tee shots are ok, you can usually time when it's ok to hit.  Blind approach shots into a green are ok because you can usually see the group in front moving to the next tee box.  But 2nd shots on a par 5 using low lofted clubs can be a bad thing because it's harder to time when a group is done hitting approach shots because you don't know if they laid up or are waiting longer than usual. 

I think you'd get a lot more discussion if every one of your posts didn't turn into a scathing rant about "your" version of golf.  We know your stance, it doesn't need to be regurgitated in every post.

CPS



Melvyn Morrow


Clint

‘Regurgitated in every post’

I can only talk about my game, I can only relate to my game.

You may well have a point but if that is how the majority feel on
this site then I have no choice but to leave.

Although it will prove another point that freedom of thought and opinions
are not valued by the members of GCA.com Discussion Group and I certainly do not want to be involved with a group that does not respect those rights.

Regurgitated – with that I know that my days are now numbered.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0

Clint

‘Regurgitated in every post’

I can only talk about my game, I can only relate to my game.

You may well have a point but if that is how the majority feel on
this site then I have no choice but to leave.

Although it will prove another point that freedom of thought and opinions
are not valued by the members of GCA.com Discussion Group and I certainly do not want to be involved with a group that does not respect those rights.

Regurgitated – with that I know that my days are now numbered.


You brought up an interesting topic that has plenty of merit without having to beat a dead horse.  And I don't believe for one second you'd ever leave because of what I think....nor should you.  So don't patronize me.

Continuing on, are there any "great" blind 2nd shots on a par 5 on your side of the pond?

CPS


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0

Clint

‘Regurgitated in every post’

I can only talk about my game, I can only relate to my game.

You may well have a point but if that is how the majority feel on
this site then I have no choice but to leave.

Although it will prove another point that freedom of thought and opinions
are not valued by the members of GCA.com Discussion Group and I certainly do not want to be involved with a group that does not respect those rights.

Regurgitated – with that I know that my days are now numbered.


Melvyn,
 
I believe this has to be a two way street. To demand others to be  welcoming of differing thoughts and opinions while steadfastly denouncing others' thoughts and opinions is wrong.

And, I don't think you can truly say you can only relate to your game. You have golfed with others in the past, I assume. You had to have made some observations.

And if we all threatened to leave the site when someone differs with us, or fail to try to relate to a different position on the game, well, the site would be an empty forum. In your quote above you lumped everyone together. Instead , you could have said "...are not valued by (some) members....." and ".....do not want to be involved with (an individual) that does not respect....", but apparently your disdain for us as a group is deeply ingrained.

Enjoy your last days, whatever that number may be. It will be a loss if you leave, in a two way street kind of way.

Joe

p.s. You'll be happy to know there is a hole on a NY course that was just restored to a blind hole concept after the club did away with it nearly 85 years ago. It should be great fun.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Are blind holes diapearing because of range finders & yardage books?

You can't be serious right?

If they are disapearing, the range finder / dstance aid is as low on the lsit as you can get.

Melvyn - you bring a lot to this dance - but you need to lighten up about about your opinons on range finders & carts.

It's a whole big world out there with room enough for those who walk and play by feel and thise who ride and look at a yardage guide.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn,

I was essentially agreeing with you.

I enjoy courses with several blind tee shots because, as Adam notes, there is that heroic dynamic.

For score junkies, blind shots are uncomfortable.

For those of us who play golf because the feeling of hitting a great shot is what really matter, a blind tee shot can be wonderful opportunity - and no matter what is creates a "fun" element because of the unknown.

These types of shots are obviously not the modern golfers cup of tea which is unfortunate.

I do not think it has much to do with distance/yardage info as much as it has to do with the "uncomfortable challenge" element.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
 They began disappearing when a designer began saying that blind holes are bad, that features and hazards should be presented to the golfer, and he became successful with that formula, made money, then made more statements about golf design beliefs until everybody thought he was a genius.
Others followed. Then the government gave out 700 billion dollars.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 11:04:30 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Australian architect Alex Russell had a saying, "if you are going to make it blind, make it bloody blind!". In for a penny etc.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
When did the blind shot die as a staple of design? While common at Prestwick and other early courses, certainly by Muirfield in 1892 - what I consider the generally first modern course - blind shots were gone.  Its been 120 years folks, and some of you are dreaming that its the devil disguised as the "modern gca and or player."

All of the Golden Age guys wrote about, and were opposed to blind shots, with blind tee shots generally considered worse, and blind or semi blind approaches discouraged, but more accepted, probably because of earthmoving limitations (in general. Again, I know Lido and a few others moved prodigious amounts of earth.....)

So, to paraphrase Tina Turner, "Whats Love, er, Range Finders Got To Do With It?  Yours is just "second hand emotions!" ::)

Some modern gca's are bring blind shots back, not eliminating them!  Most, like me, favor "optional blindness" where a safe shot doesn't ever have to "go past the headlights" but the risky one might involve some blind aspects.

While I find them (optional blind shots) fun on occaision I still believe there is a limited place for blind shots.  While being all for freedom and stuff, I don't play for score AND there can (as for our teenagers) be the "right" and "wrong" kind of fun.

For me, blind can be fun if it is still well defined.  Blind and undefined is just not fun to me, nor can I imagine it is fun for most golfers, even if a few like it. And, some have mentioned the liability issues - I agree. Who wants to hear "This is my Titlest, is that your Callaway under that corpse over there?" :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andy Troeger

I went on a trip to play two new courses this year and between the two encountered at least 7 blind or partially blind shots. I was pretty surprised but also pleased by that.

Four Mile Ranch--Jim Engh (Canon City, CO)
Cougar Canyon--Chris Cochran of Nicklaus design (Trinidad, CO)

There may be fewer blind shots, but they're not dead entirely. I really like them, but the one drawback is that on a crowded course you cannot tell when the group ahead has cleared the fairway/green.

I think they disappeared because most golfers don't like them and want the course to be "in front" of you. I don't agree with that, but it sure seems that as soon as architects got hold of bulldozers that blind shots started to become more the exception than the rule. Certain guys will still use them, others not. Basically what Slag said a couple posts ago...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
As I argued, Slag is right, but missed the revolution by many years!  Ross and the Golden Agers (another good band name, maybe for Polka bands) may have made big bucks for a few years in the 20's, but the early Brits who designed Muirfield and others probably didn't.  GCA was barely a profession then and golfers realized that presenting challenges meant, well.....presenting challenges, not hiding them.

The march to reduce luck started probably somewhere in bar after the very first round of golf on the old course, or its bretheren!

Of course, just like the current (or any) political debate, I fully expect to wake up in the morning and find that my little insertion of the truth will be igored, in favor of arguing fantasy some more..... ::)

Good night, all, and to all, a good night!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andy Troeger

Jeff,
Thanks for posting the comments, I did not know most of that information. I do like the occasional blind shot, especially some kind of partial blindness as opposed to "hit over that hill there and hope for the best"--which I suppose is the undefined blindness you described. Its a lot of fun when done well, but can be pretty awful when done poorly (like hiding a pond behind a hill).

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
As I argued, Slag is right, but missed the revolution by many years!  Ross and the Golden Agers (another good band name, maybe for Polka bands) may have made big bucks for a few years in the 20's, but the early Brits who designed Muirfield and others probably didn't.  GCA was barely a profession then and golfers realized that presenting challenges meant, well.....presenting challenges, not hiding them.

The march to reduce luck started probably somewhere in bar after the very first round of golf on the old course, or its bretheren!

Of course, just like the current (or any) political debate, I fully expect to wake up in the morning and find that my little insertion of the truth will be igored, in favor of arguing fantasy some more..... ::)

Good night, all, and to all, a good night!

Jeff

I think you are right.  Blindness was mainly designed out by the Golden Agers Polka Band.  The odd thing is that no matter how much these lot talked about presenting the hole, they still did some blind stuff and they often didn't have to if they were willing to spend the money. 

Burnham was perhaps the king of blindness until Colt came along.  He finalised a routing mainly through the dunes rather than over them.  When the hills got in the way, he cut gaps like at #s 1 & 18.  The odd thing is that he would design the 10th over a huge dune.  Its especially odd in that he chopped the top off - why not the rest?  I spose old ideas die hard.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Anthony Gray




I  think you'd get a lot more discussion if every one of your posts didn't turn into a scathing rant about "your" version of golf.  We know your stance, it doesn't need to be regurgitated in every post.

CPS





   Melvyn     Carry on my Captian!!!!!!




Anthony Gray




Regurgitated – with that I know that my days are now numbered.


 

Continuing on, are there any "great" blind 2nd shots on a par 5 on your side of the pond?

CPS





  Clint,


  No 5 on The Old is a blind secound. And many tee shots are blind but not many people are botherd it seems. And on 14 I don't think I have ever seen my ball land.




Anthony Gray


Clint

‘Regurgitated in every post’


Although it will prove another point that freedom of thought and opinions
are not valued by the members of GCA.com Discussion Group and I certainly do not want to be involved with a group that does not respect those rights.

Regurgitated – with that I know that my days are now numbered.

       
     Melvyn,


  Forgive them because they know not what they do........ one day they will know that the world is not flat.



 

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
     Melvyn,


  Forgive them because they know not what they do........ one day they will know that the world is flat.

 

 Wouldn't that make more sense?  :P

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back