[Padraig Dooley]

I just came across a 1982 Golf Magazine article by Cornell University student Tom Doak called The Untouchables about par five holes in America which had never-never been hit in two shots. There were 21 holes mentioned.

I wonder how many remain untouched 26 years later? Are there any more that can be added to the list?

The 21 holes are

Course                                       Hole

Baltusrol GC (lower)                    17
Butler National GC                         7
                                                         15
Canterbury GC                              16
Concord Hotel GC (monster)       4
Essex CC                                         3
Industry Hills GC (Eisenhower)   18
Medinah CC (No. 3)                       7
Oak Hill CC (East)                         13
Oak Tree GC                                   3
Olympic Club (Lakeside)             16
Pine Tree GC                                 16
Pine Valley GC                                7
                                                         15
Riviera CC                                     17
St. Louis CC                                  13
The Golf Club                                14
Tidewater CC                                18
TPC Sawgrass                                9
Wee Burn CC                                  6
Yale University GC                        18


I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the holes at Baltusrol, Medinah, Riviera, TPC and probably Butler National have been reached.

This leaves us with at most 15 unreached. Can anybody knock a few more off the list? Is the only way to make a par 5 unreachable in two is to have a central hazard which prevents drives going past a certain distance?

I don't know of any unreachable par 5s on this side of the pond because ground conditions and wind can make any hole reachable in two shots (or unreachable in three as well).


                                      

[wsmorrison]

Padraig,

Some of these have been lengthened in the intervening years, such as Pine Valley's 7th.  Though not certain, I think even the lengthened version has been reached.  The 13th at St. Louis CC is reachable today (601 yards and lengthened by about 21 yards), though I'm not sure if the players that can do so are playing the course.

I would add the 614 yard 9th at Rolling Green as a possible candidate for untouchable status.  Almost the entire fairway slopes significantly left to right for the first 400 yards so draws aren't running very much.  The side slope and the uphill nature of the hole makes it pretty unlikely that an approach shot can be pulled off.  I think the hole should be lengthened another 20 yards or so.

[Padraig Dooley]

Wayne

Does Hell's Half Acre stop the seventh in Pine Valley being reached in two?

[Ronald Montesano]

I remember reading that article; I never knew that Tom penned it.  How fun!

I'd be shocked if any of them remain untouchable.  If they do, just get four guys from the long drivers tour (with their height, fitness and technology intact) and let them have at it.

I will say that the 4th at the Concord Monster will remain untouchable as long as the resort is closed.  However, word on the digital street is that financing to reopen the joint as a spa, casino and golf resort has been settled and that work will begin soon in Sullivan County.

Hank Kuehne was on Oak Hill's 13th when he won his US Amateur, so that one is certainly a gonner.  I think that pros are routinely on 9 at TPC, too.

[wsmorrison]

Padraig,

From the back of the new tee, a 360-yard drive will end up at the end of the fairway just before HAA.  From there it is a 260 yard carry to the green.  Easy 

[Bob_Huntley]

Olympic 16th and Riviera's 17th have been hit in two shots.

Bob

[Kalen Braley]

I'm pretty sure the 9th at TPC Sawgrass has been hit in two..

[Mike Sweeney]

Yale 18 was hit in two by John Daley years ago in a junior tour event.

[Tom_Doak]

Padraig:

That article got me an A+ in my Writing for Magazines course at Cornell.  It was George Peper's idea (and GOLF happened to have on their staff Oscar Fraley, who wrote the real "The Untouchables"), but George had never had anyone with enough time to do the research for it and write it for $400 until I came along.

We reprised the article about ten years later and by then most of the original 21 had been hit in two.  I don't think anyone has ever hit and held the green on the seventh at Pine Valley, though. 

And I've still never heard of anyone reaching and holding either of the two par-5's at Crystal Downs, although I'm sure if we had a Tour event someone could do it.  The 8th is just hard to bounce the ball up on and awfully small to hold from 200+ yards out; the 16th is uphill in the landing area so you get no roll, and it plays dead into the wind half the time.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Olympic 16th

There is the folklore about Bobby Jones doing it, pre-trees (always a good trivia question on the tee).  And the front bunkers have been reached a lot.  And I saw John Hurley put a 3 wood pin high, but right of the green (he had 285 to go) in the Amateur last year.  But I am not aware of anything more specific than that.

[Mike Benham]

Padraig:

That article got me an A+ in my Writing for Magazines course at Cornell.  It was George Peper's idea (and GOLF happened to have on their staff Oscar Fraley, who wrote the real "The Untouchables"), but George had never had anyone with enough time to do the research for it and write it for $400 until I came along.

Typical Hollywood, a better name would have been the "Unhittables" ...

[Padraig Dooley]

Padraig:

That article got me an A+ in my Writing for Magazines course at Cornell.  It was George Peper's idea (and GOLF happened to have on their staff Oscar Fraley, who wrote the real "The Untouchables"), but George had never had anyone with enough time to do the research for it and write it for $400 until I came along.

We reprised the article about ten years later and by then most of the original 21 had been hit in two.  I don't think anyone has ever hit and held the green on the seventh at Pine Valley, though. 

And I've still never heard of anyone reaching and holding either of the two par-5's at Crystal Downs, although I'm sure if we had a Tour event someone could do it.  The 8th is just hard to bounce the ball up on and awfully small to hold from 200+ yards out; the 16th is uphill in the landing area so you get no roll, and it plays dead into the wind half the time.

Tom

I might have an opportunity to go to Crystal Downs next year. I'll look forward to seeing those holes.

 

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey Wayne ...I"m fairly certain no one has ever hit it on #7 at Pine Valley yet , yet people may have hit it long or right/left pin high.

Also 360 from the new back tee seems too long, I'd guess 325-330 tops ...but Ive been wrong before

Pretty interestign that no one has hit #7...there were a few times when I was a kid that I Took a swing at it,   and guys can hit it wayyyyyyy past me...pretty amazing if it;s still a virgin!

regards

Arch

[Tom_Doak]

Archie:

It's not that amazing to me ... if you teed it up at the very brink of Hell's Half Acre, you have to carry your second shot about 270-280 yards and then hold a green that's not especially receptive.  And the hazard is far enough across that nobody can drive over it.

[Ronald Montesano]

So it seems that, since Pine Valley and Crystal Downs do not regularly (if ever) play host to the best in the world, their holes might stay clean forever.  Play a professional major at either course and kiss their bagels goodbye.

[Wade Whitehead]

The very concept of this sort of discussion is interesting to me.  There would be little to no interest in discussing par fours that have never been driven from the tee, though that would be the same thing, in a way, as reaching par a par five in two.  What is it about the game that drives most of us to expect that virtually every par five should or could be reachable in two, but that most par fours would (and should) be entirely out of reach in one?

WW

[Patrick_Mucci]

Course                                       Hole

Baltusrol GC (lower)                    17      reached
Butler National GC                         7
                                                         15
Canterbury GC                              16
Concord Hotel GC (monster)       4
Essex CC                                         3
Industry Hills GC (Eisenhower)   18
Medinah CC (No. 3)                       7
Oak Hill CC (East)                         13
Oak Tree GC                                   3
Olympic Club (Lakeside)             16
Pine Tree GC                                15It's # 16 at about 670
                                                       and it's been reached, which I find mind
                                                        boggling
Pine Valley GC                                7
                                                      15Gary Groh was the 1st
                                                               to hit it and my friend Peter
                                                                Kapsimalis Jr was the 2nd, but, the
                                                                1st amateur.
Riviera CC                                     17
St. Louis CC                                  13
The Golf Club                                14
Tidewater CC                                18
TPC Sawgrass                                9
Wee Burn CC                                  6
Yale University GC                        18


I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the holes at Baltusrol, Medinah, Riviera, TPC and probably Butler National have been reached.

This leaves us with at most 15 unreached. Can anybody knock a few more off the list? Is the only way to make a par 5 unreachable in two is to have a central hazard which prevents drives going past a certain distance?

I don't know of any unreachable par 5s on this side of the pond because ground conditions and wind can make any hole reachable in two shots (or unreachable in three as well).
                                 

[Padraig Dooley]

Yes,

Pat it's 16 at Pine Tree, mistyping on my part, but corrected now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Padraig,

While # 16 at Pine Tree is about 670, it usually plays down wind with the prevailing wind being from the south/southeast.

# 5 at Pine Tree is about 620 and plays into the prevailing cross wind from the south/southeast.

The green at # 5 seems to be 1/5 the size of the green at # 16, so I wonder if # 5 has ever been hit in two from the back of the back tee.

The 5th green is almost entirely fronted by a deep bunker, while the left side of # 16 green allows for a run up.

From the back tee, I think # 5 is the more difficult hole even though it's 40-50 yards shorter.

[Padraig Dooley]

Pat

When Tom did this article the 16th at Pine Tree played 616 yards and hadn't been reached but now at 670 it has, which might be more mind-boggling.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

When Tom did this article the 16th at Pine Tree played 616 yards and hadn't been reached but now at 670 it has, which might be more mind-boggling.

What I find difficult to comprehend is that a 370 yard drive leaves the golfer with a 300 yard shot to the green from off the deck, and yet, some golfers have accomplished this.  I find it mind boggling.

I've also played the hole into a north wind and hit driver, driver, 3-wood and come up far short.

While the focus seems to be on # 16 due to it's length ( I think the tee is about 165 yards long), # 5 would seem harder to hit in two due to the factors I mentioned above.

And, I don't recall anyone claiming to have hit # 5 in two.
I'll have to ask when I next visit PT.

[Tom_Doak]

wwhitehead:

I thought years ago (and still think) this was a good premise for an article about architecture, because it also allowed us to discuss the question of whether all par fives SHOULD be reachable in two.  There were some players and some architects back then who thought that a truly unreachable par-5 was necessarily a bad hole.

After some thought on the topic, I decided that I didn't like the idea of a totally unreachable hole, either.  If players CANNOT reach in two then they aren't tempted to overhit on the first or second shot; they will just play 3-wood, 4-iron, 8-iron to the green.  So, I think nearly all par-5's should be theoretically reachable so that the strong player is consumed by temptation.

[Tim Gavrich]

There are a couple 700+ yard par 5s on the RTJ Golf Trail in Alabama that I'd imagine have not been reached in two.

Did anyone hold the 12th green at Oakmont  when they used the 667 tee?

[Wade Whitehead]

wwhitehead:

I thought years ago (and still think) this was a good premise for an article about architecture, because it also allowed us to discuss the question of whether all par fives SHOULD be reachable in two.  There were some players and some architects back then who thought that a truly unreachable par-5 was necessarily a bad hole.

After some thought on the topic, I decided that I didn't like the idea of a totally unreachable hole, either.  If players CANNOT reach in two then they aren't tempted to overhit on the first or second shot; they will just play 3-wood, 4-iron, 8-iron to the green.  So, I think nearly all par-5's should be theoretically reachable so that the strong player is consumed by temptation.

Tom:

Thanks for your input and expertise.  I like the idea of the strong player being tempted after a well-played and/or aggressive drive on any par five.  I agree that it's the best case scenario.  I appreciate the thoughtful - and clearly more qualified than mine - response.

Does any of this have bearing on whether or not quality par fours should be equally reachable (in a shot less than regulation), at least some of the time?

WW

[John Foley]

Ron,

Are you sure about Keuhne @ Oak Hill? I heard that he did not, but may be wrong.

Tim,

Pretty sure Cabrerra held #12 in either the 3rd or 4th round last year

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()