[J_ Crisham]

Tom,  having watched you play at MPCC this past May I think you are humble in your abilities. I feel that you are good enough to need a exact yardage whether this is with a book or hand held gadget. The reason we live in America is because we have choices!    Jack

[Tom Huckaby]

 


  Tom,


  I guess I'm old school. But that does not mean I'm saying old school is better. I use 100 150 and 200 markers as a general guide. I find it enjoyable to use other factors other than yardage for club selection.

 

That's fine.  But again you seem to assume I play the game completely different from that.  The truth is I find the closest distance marker (as you seem to do), eyeball it from there, take a club and hit it, factoring in wind, fatigue, type of shot I want to hit, etc.  Sound familiar?

Melvyn at least would seem to denigrate those of us who even look at the markers you do.  That I find odd... as much as I find odd not understanding how at least as things are today, those who have information have a competitive advantage.

TH

[J_ Crisham]

Tom,  I failed to mention that you will know you are good when you can approach a packed driving range at MPCC and shout "Make way for a good player"!         Jack

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,  having watched you play at MPCC this past May I think you are humble in your abilities. I feel that you are good enough to need a exact yardage whether this is with a book or hand held gadget. The reason we live in America is because we have choices!    Jack

Jack, thanks.  I certainly do tend to achieve better results with distance information; of course I do as that is how I have played pretty much since I was 12 years old or so.

BUT... I do believe I remain far less of a slave to such things than most others I play with, particularly those I compete against.  Only if I am completely bamboozled visually do I step off a distance to a sprinkler head or other marker.  Eyeballing the 10-20 yards I am at most away from such things is darn near always good enough for me.  

The main point does remain though that I am certainly better with SOME informational help.  I didn't mean to imply or state otherwise.  That's why I continue to find it silly to give away that help when in competition.

TH

PS - oh yes, one does have to know how to make an entrance, particularly at great clubs like MPCC.   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Clint

It seems to me that some of my words are lost in translation, some because I am indeed passionate and some because you do not understood me.

When I say fun I generally mean go and enjoy your game, have fun, it is not meant to convey anything else. That’s why I made the attempt to explain my views.

Let’s be very clear I have no power to change anything, it’s just my opinion, I voice my opinions and I do accept that American Golf is different. But who changed it, who parted from the traditional ways. But you have every right to play the game you want, with or without toys, aids or whatever you want to call it.

There are times I try and inject some humour, but that’s all it is, fun, don’t read more into it than that.

As for the Yardage crap, I do not think very highly of the R&A, I feel they are responsible for neglect and the current state of our game. Their inability to face and react to problems is based upon their own belief in their self importance. Yet as I have said numerous times they have the people with talent that can protect our game at the same time embrace new technology.   

But at the end of the day you have a simple choice – as we all do – do we try and communicate, to allow others to understand our opinions, our point of view or do we just go to war. I will always try to hold out a hand of friendship first, rejecting it will not put me on a war footing, but I will withdraw to allow tempers to cool.

So enjoy your game and have fun (sincerely said and meant).

Tom

Melvyn at least would seem to denigrate those of us who even look at the markers you do.

No Tom you have me all wrong, read my past posts on distance/yardage, what I say is that each golfer has it within himself not to need this information provided by outside sources. His own built in ability can achieve the same result, as we walk to our ball our brain takes in all the information and that is where the message comes from to control our swing, the old eye brain co-ordination. What I am saying is that we are swamped with this need for outside information which is just not needed.

I understand the need to use them but my point, it’s a need generated by the market – golfers have now become hooked on distance knowledge. Get rid of all distance markers on any course and allow yourself a little time to refocus your eye-brain, and I bet you would not miss them after a while. Don’t use markers or distance aids, in my time it was all down to my eyes, skill and experience and as far as I am concerned it’s the best and only way to play. Yes, I think you guys have become addicted in the need for distance information, but you CAN live without it. 

[C. Squier]

So enjoy your game and have fun (sincerely said and meant).

I will/do and hope the same for you.  Thanks 

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvyn:

That's all a given - an assumption - that is, I fully believe most golfers are addicted to distance information and surely could do just fine without it.  To me that is very obvious.  But just as obvious is the painful fact that courses are not going to "de-mark" themselves; distance information is NOT going away.

So you can pine away for a world that you wish to exist; I prefer to live in the real world and deal with it.

And since I do tend to keep score and play competitively at times, at those times, once again, I will not cede competitive edge to the competition.

It remains odd to me this all appears so difficult for you to understand.  But then again, you do have a direct tie to a better world that once was.

So, all the best.  But I doubt we're ever going to see eye to eye on this.

TH

[Kirk Gill]

This issue really shouldn't be all that difficult, or divisive. Golf is a game that allows each individual a lot of latitude in the way they play. Different equipment, different tees, different courses. Be a member of a private club. Don't be a member, but play a bunch of private clubs anyway. Fancy publics, decent publics, rat-ass munis. Play for fun, play for a few bucks, play for big bucks or trophies or glory or championships. Play very, very well, play pretty good, be a hack or a novice. Earn and utilize a handicap, or ignore it completely. Match play, stroke play, wolf, or some other game. Or, perhaps, just playing and not worrying about the score at all. Walk. Ride. Use a pull-cart. Have someone carry your clubs for you. Know your distance to the inch, have some vague indication of distance, or figure it all out for yourself.

You're even allowed to have a bit of an attitude about any or all of the above, believe you're right, and even come out and say so. What's the big deal? It seems to me that Mr. Huntley started this thread based on the notion that he'd spoken out in the past against delaying the game to find a distance, and then he found himself doing it himself. If hypocrisy at all, then the most minor of forms. He ruminated about whether or not the "Gene Andrews approach" (please forgive my total ignorance, but I really don't know Gene Andrews) was robbing us of the ability to gauge distances on our own, unaided.

I think that from what I've read above, reliance on distance aids does, over time, put rust on the ability to gauge distance by eye. That seems to be an easy answer. All we seem to be arguing about is how important that loss is.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well said, Kirk.  I couldn't agree more.

I just found myself a bit on the defensive as use of distance information was said to be ungentlemanly, less soulful, etc.  But of course all of this is far from Mr. Huntley's question.  But I addressed that also very early on - pretty much agreeing with you - and that is that if this is a transgression or some sort of hypocrisy it is indeed minor, and perhaps explained by the circumstances.

One thing is absolutely true:  the more one uses the information available, the rustier his ability to eyeball distances, and translate shots to those distances - does become.  I found that out for sure in my Ballyneal example.

TH

[Ryan Chin]

Back to Mr. Huntley's original point:

The main reason many like to use them is for pace of play. I despise looking for yardage markers - usually they are 10-20 yards away and I look like a goof pacing yardages off. Let's face it, it's faster to laser it. Plus I hate looking like a methodical prick. Many golf associations allow their usage for pace of play in tournaments.

As we all have learned, it's the players who take four practice swings before laying the sod over it, and read their 3 footer from four sides who are the ones most likely to have PACED the three yards from the marker.

Though I gotta think knowing it's 152 to the flag helps train your eye to know what is 152 versus 157. Practice makes perfect...

[Anthony Gray]

  Ryan,


  Lasers speeding up play is not something I have thought about. My first thought would be that the players that use them are meticulous and thus slower players. Tom also made this point that they can speed up play. I will have a watchful eye to see if this hypothesis is true.


   Something to consider....Do these new devices diminish the artistry of the game? No absolutes just a point to ponder.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Never having used one, I didn't realize until yesterday that some laser guides not only give you the distance but also tell you what % uphill/downhill your shot is.  That way, you can know its 157 and, say 5% uphill.  The guy I know says he adds/subtracts a yard per % to his distance and would play that shot at 161.

[Kirk Gill]

Have they already made a device that is able to tell you how far you hit all of your shots? You enter which club you used, it measures the resulting shot (distance, height, spin, etc.). You perform this data entry for a little while, and then it will start to tell you what club to use. Perhaps a wind-speed detector could be added somehow. The device would know what trajectory of shot you tend to hit, combine it with the wind speed, a contour map of the golf course showing where you are, how far you have to the green, elevation differential, and of course since a contour map of the green would also be available so the device could recommend which part of the green  you should aim for based on that day's pin placement.

And so on. I suppose at that point you might as well be playing on your Wii, right? Perhaps clubs could sell "virtual memberships" allowing people to play their course via the internet based on that day's conditions.

[Tom Huckaby]

Now Kirk.. the rules are pretty darn clear on this.  What Jeff describes is illegal.  I don't doubt that such devices exist, but use of them is clearly against the rules.  All you are allowed to get is distance info.

And we've argued this to the addest of nauseam in here already.  Those who hate all things modern will of course hate these devices.  Those who live in the real world of golf today tend to see their worth.  Neither the twain shall meet.

But Anthony, the testimony has already been given in this forum.  At least a couple who were vehemently against these devices came to see how they did in fact speed play.  But again, there remained fervent disbelievers.  In the end this is pretty much a subject like politics, where most are too entrenched to see anything but their own side.

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kirk,

As bad as all that sounds, with the demise of caddy programs, is it really any different than having an experienced caddie in the old days?  Maybe they can personalize these things to talk, like other GPS systems, and it can give you that advice in a gruff scottish brogue.  Not quite the same, but with robots replacing humans in so many other jobs, probably to be expected in the caddy ranks someday.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kirk

Are you me, have I changed my name? Are we living in the real world? Do we have statnav in the cars, DVD/CD car systems or are they hickory surrounded DVD/TV screens.

Modern world, no problem, my eye brain co-ordination still working. judge distance well and seem to recognise a hill when I see one. Why do people have to justify using aids, we all know why they are used. Also bet my game if faster that using an electronic distance aid because by the time I get to my ball I have selected my club and ready for the shot. But then its just justifying wanting to use them - fine use them Tom but stop making excuses, if you need them for your game - fully understand and they are legal - just feel sorry that good golfers need to use them.

Kirk. Be careful some will not understand or agree with you - then you will have to defend yourself for heresy you spout.

Must keep writing this stuff - it’s just like me – you poor fellow will you ever live it down? 

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvyn:

As I've tried to make clear to you countless times, I don't use these myself.  I do however choose to get correct distances in competition, for which you intimated that I had no golf soul.

Things that that require defense.  I think Clint explained this to you quite well, if you want to back up and read his post to you at the top of this page.

In any case, I have zero doubt you play quite faster than anyone using a distance aid.  But YOU are not the issue.  What makes play go faster is that the slaves to distance who need/want these things HAD been stepping off distance to sprinkler heads and slavishly painstakingly foreveringly trying to ascertain their exact distance before; and now they can do it quite quickly at the press of a button.  Again, it's not the perfect golf world we all want, but here in the real world, the net effect does remain that play goes more quickly.  There are a LOT of slaves to distance we must play behind, at least in this country.

In any case, you're not a heretic Melyvn - far from it.  I'd call you more a monk, sequested in your world.  I'd love to join your world, as would most here... Unfortunately it remains impossible.

TH

[Kirk Gill]

I'm just an observer. On some level, I'm surprised that such a device hasn't already been made, but since I haven't researched it I may just be behind the times.

And to reiterate something I mentioned earlier, I'm a believer in every golfer doing what it is that makes the game most fun for them. I've never actually had a chance to play with most of the new gizmos - I can't afford to just play golf all that often, much less spend money on stuff like that. I did play a round not long ago riding in a cart with gps, and I thought it was fun, with the little map on the screen and the distance on there. I'm sure I used it in some fashion, but my game needs a lot more help than any gps unit can provide. I admire the purity of Mr. Morrow's position, but it's easy for me to do so since I pretty much play that way anyway, and am not involved in any competitions where I might feel I'm at a competitive disadvantage by not using the things. There's a part of me that wishes that electronics and hi-tech gadgets wouldn't make it on to the course, a place that can provide an escape from all of that. I will concede that it's a naive notion.

And Jeff, you're right about caddies, and what they must provide to the golfer, and it begs a question, for those who have utilized caddies on numerous occasions. I asked Tom H. earlier to what degree the distance-finders helped him score. What about a caddy? To what degree does the combination of having your clubs carried by someone else AND the advice a caddy can provide affect your score? Tom, would you play a competitive round against someone using a caddy and not then use one yourself?

[Tom Huckaby]

Kirk:

GREAT QUESTION!

That requires some soul-searching.  Remember when I answered this before, my take was I was not looking for advantage - far from it - I just wanted a level playing field.  So no way do I try to use things that my opponent cannot... my take was that if distance information was available to one and all, it seemed silly to me NOT to use it when the opponents did.  Note I could care less if an opponent uses a Bushnell as to me that's just a different means to the same end... I have no need to use one just because he does - I get my distance information in a different way.  The intimation was just that one ought to ALWAYS FORESAKE ALL DISTANCE information; and my take remains that doing such is silly in competition.

But a caddie is a different thing... that goes into finances and availability more than just using what's available to all.  And a caddy can be a great help... particularly on a course one doesn't know.  I've had rounds where a good caddie had to have saved me 6 shots at least.  Then again I've had rounds where a bad caddie likely cost me 6 shots, so who knows.  In the end they are a positive far more than a negative for sure though.

SO.... I wouldn't feel right taking a caddie if my opponent COULD NOT do so, for whatever reason.  However, if he simply chose not to, then to me it's like me choosing not to use a Bushnell in the previous scenario.

But that's not what you asked... you asked if I would foresake using a caddie against an opponent who had one.  And the answer to that is simpler - heck yeah I would.  In fact I think I'd only use a caddie on a very foreign course.  I can live without him for sure on a course I know.  I'm also cheap.

 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Nothing is impossible. You may not have lost the spirit of golf but perhaps just mislaid it. A round at Askernish will restore body & mind plus the spirit of the Single Malt may shine through like Simon Templar.

No distance markers. Sprinkler heads or any form of distance aid. Wardens guard Old Tom’s course with double barrel shot guns for anyone with an electronic distance aid (no - only joking). So you will be free to re-charge your batteries (at home) whilst enjoying some real enjoyable Scottish Golf. Stay two days at Askernish then up the islands to Stornoway then back for a final round or two at Askernish. 

You will fly home without a plane after that, well your Spirit will.

Monk indeed, must understand our humour; I have never been a Monk although my wife says she is willing to give it a go, may beat the Nurse’s uniform.   

[Tom Huckaby]

The use of the word monk was intentional double entendre (if I am spelling that correctly!) and I am very glad you got it. 

SO... all in good fun.

I just do continue to chuckle at your assumptions that I have mislaid any part of golf spirit.  You do not know me nor where I have been nor what I have done nor what parts of this game I enjoy most.  Let's just say that a lesser man would come out with fists flailing for this... I for one prefer to chuckle.. and to try to defend myself nicely.

I have mislaid nothing, Melvyn.  My problem is that I play the game in a world where the vast majority have.  And rather than fight it and while away whistfully wishing for better times and places, I function in the world in which I am forced to live.

But that doesn't mean I don't travel to other worlds, and enjoy it greatly when I am there.

In any case, you come over here, play a round at THE RANCH AT SILVER CREEK in competition, where score is kept and money exchanges hands, and then report to me how wonderful the game was as you gleefully foresook distance information and use of cart.  I'll be there to lend you the funds to cover your massive losses, and call the ambulance to whisk you away following your fatigue-induced heart attack.

We live in different worlds.  Yours is better, for sure.  But that doesn't help me.

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Since some use caddies just to tote and not give advice, using or not using because an opponent can or can't may not be relevant.  Would you take a pull trolley if you determined the opponents caddy offered no advice but took a load off his shoulders (literally)?  I think your obligation is to play within the rules and use them to your advantage, not to match your opponents use or lack thereof to what is available to him.

If he (now sounding like my mother.....) took an illegal drop, would you feel like you had to take one to level the playing field?  And, how do you know that he hasn't simply scouted the course in detail, knows yardages by heart, and is NOT using a caddy or device to mess with your mind?

Use what the rules allow and you will be well within what the spirit of golf is all about. IMHO, of course.

BTW, you still have to hit the shots.  I have used caddies infrequently, and there is an interesting interaction in their advice.  As noted, some are right on, others give you breaks, reads and distances that destroy your confidence, not add to it.  Presumably the GPS would be reliable to the 0.1 of a yard unless the battery was dead or you were in a weak reception zone.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jeff - that makes perfect sense to me.  In fact this is exceedingly well said:

Use what the rules allow and you will be well within what the spirit of golf is all about. IMHO, of course.

I'll call that my humble opinion also.  And that's all that I meant.  The previous intimation was that unless one foresook all distance information all the time, one mislaid his spirit of the game.  That is what I could not accept.

My take re caddies was more about not taking advantages not available to others.  I wouldn't enjoy that... even if that is acceptable under the rules as it obviously is.  I don't have to artificially create a level playing field - that's silly of course - but I also don't like to take advantages I don't feel right about.  This is likely a small reason why I don't have much competitive success... true competitors are far more ruthless than I am.  Just note I also claim no moral superiority or better connection to the spirit of golf than they have.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

If he (now sounding like my mother.....) took an illegal drop, would you feel like you had to take one to level the playing field?

   If Melvyn would jump of a bridge, I would to.

[Tom Huckaby]

If he (now sounding like my mother.....) took an illegal drop, would you feel like you had to take one to level the playing field?

   If Melvyn would jump of a bridge, I would to.

Melvyn - it sounds like you have a brother to join you in the hermitage.

 

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