[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

Romance is from the heart – as in all things you need passion – it’s what makes life liveable.

[Anthony Gray]

   Melvyn......Oh to see the course with your minds eye.....a place where no shot is blind.... A low handicapper with a laser is handicapped indeed.




     

[Tom Huckaby]

Gentlemen, this is all well and good.  Yes the game is purer without distance aids.

But do you all play on unmarked courses?

Take all the markings away and I'd love it.  I'd love for gauging distance to go back to being a skill.

But so long as courses are marked, to me it's pretty silly not to use the information available; at least in competition.  All other rounds, who cares?  But ceding advantage to the competition just to prove a point seems pretty silly to me.

TH, a relatively low handicapper who does not use any electronic distance aids (doesn't need them) but who damn well will look at sprinkler heads, and who is as passionate about this game as any of you "purists."

So there.

 

[Anthony Gray]

   


    Tom,

    There is golf and there is tournament golf. As for me I first view the shot then look for the 100, 150, or 200 marker for verification. But I rarely change clubs.

   This past friday I took three guests to my course. I could not even find the sprinkler heads! On one hole I was asked the distance and I said 135. One of the other players said the sprinkler says 125. The shot finished 5 yards short into the water. The player looked at the other player and said 135.


    I hope some of you are familiar with the longtime caddy at Pebble Beach named "The Phantom". On No 15 he tells me "190". My friend and I looked at the 150 stake 10 yards infront of us. The Phantom said in his gravely voice "You can look at the 150 all day!...190". I hit my 185 club 10 feet below the hole and left with a birdie............190....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

“Gentleman or Player”

I’ll leave that one for you to decide who is the most passionate and which one would never consider using an aid to beat a fellow golfer. Nothing to do with being a ‘purist’ – perhaps more to do with the inner man.

I care not what others think of me, but I care what I think of myself.

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony:

The point is not what one uses, the point I am making is that to foresake such use against an opponent who has the benefit of the information to me seems silly.  But again, take it all away and I am all for it.  And it seems that you and I play the game the same way. 

Melvyn:  I would not use any aid not available to one and all in competition.  But I also will not cede advantage to my competitor just to prove a point.  I feel quite comfortable with my inner man, as I'm sure you do.

TH

[C. Squier]

Tom

“Gentleman or Player”

I’ll leave that one for you to decide who is the most passionate and which one would never consider using an aid to beat a fellow golfer. Nothing to do with being a ‘purist’ – perhaps more to do with the inner man.

I care not what others think of me, but I care what I think of myself.

So you don't play with handicap strokes?  Those are aids in the most tangible sense.  Each worth one full shot and you don't have to use any skill or thought to achieve that free shot.  Surely if you're against yardage aids, you must be against free shots that take zero work.  Quite ungentlemanly to take away the advantage of a better player who's given a lifetime of hard work and passion for the game in the blind of an eye.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Clint

Please actually read what I have written, not what you think I have written, it may help you understand what is really being discussed or trying to be discussed.


Tom

Good!

[Anthony Gray]

   


   Tom,

   I agree with  your point during competition. But I rarely play hig stakes golf.

  Is not the true competition between the golfer and the course?
 
 Between the golfer and himself?





 

[C. Squier]

Clint

Please actually read what I have written, not what you think I have written, it may help you understand what is really being discussed or trying to be discussed.

Sorry, when you break out your inner-man-o-meter, I get to question YOUR beliefs.

[Tom Huckaby]

   


   Tom,

   I agree with  your point during competition. But I rarely play hig stakes golf.

  Is not the true competition between the golfer and the course?
 
 Between the golfer and himself?





 

I too never play for high stakes.  But I do play in competition against other golfers from time to time.  And while the "true" competitions can indeed be golfer v. course and golfer v. himself, that doesn't preclude competing against others.

Look, if you find it some higher calling or something to compete against others who are using distance information while avoiding it yourself, then more power to you.   I just find that to be silly. 

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

Clint

Sorry, I don’t follow, why do you have to question my beliefs, your earlier post (in my Blind Hole topic) stated very firmly that “We know your stance, it doesn't need to be regurgitated in every post”. So why question it?

You don’t like my comments, fine – that is what I thought was the point of this discussion group, to debate all matters relating to golf and design. My points are very valid, they form part of my questions/comments, my topics may or may not be understood but unless discussed how do we know?

Yes, I don’t want to play the American game, I have always said that I want to play the game the way I was taught and my father and his father before him way back past Old Tom. I want to keep that way of golf going. Names like Old Tom with 100 or so course to his name, George & Jack Morris with Hoylake and with a hand full of other courses to their name, Charlie Hunter of Prestwick, St Nicholas, Troon and Machrihanish, James Hunter co-founder of Royal Quebec, Willie Rusack courses in Germany and I believe maybe the USA, all these are part of my family. Is there a wonder I care about the game - that I want to keep the game – let us call it true & honest – because my family has been playing golf longer that the USA has been in existence. But be clear no insult or disrespect intended, it’s just a statement of fact.

Do I get passionate? Yes I do. Do I care? Yes I certainly do. Does the future matter? Yes it does.

You play golf for whatever reason you wish, great, enjoy yourself.  I look at golf and can accept carts but I object strongly to No Walking Courses – if all want to ride fine, but ban walking in Golf – sorry that's just one step too far. Cart tracks have ruined some old course and are an ugly scar on the face of a natural course. They affect the design and natural profile of the course. As for this 20th Century thing called distance/yardage information, it has become a plague upon our sport, now most must have their distance information before selecting or taking a shot – my problem is what happened to playing golf with your eyes and judging distances in the conventional & time honoured way.

All my concerns, I believe are fair and honest but because you play happily using some or most of these items, you and others attack me for my beliefs, for raising the issues on a discussion board. I’m asked why don’t you use Hickory, why not use a gutty, I’m a purist, I take the moral high ground, yet in truth I believe that you are just trying to defend your beliefs by belittling me.

But then why should I worry, the site will continue with or without me, my leaving will cause no problem, certainly if I stay I expect more of the same.  Well, I may stay or I may leave GCA.com, certainly I see no point if the majority are not willing to openly discuss these and other matters. After all
this is meant to be a discussion group.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom

“Gentleman or Player”

I’ll leave that one for you to decide who is the most passionate and which one would never consider using an aid to beat a fellow golfer. Nothing to do with being a ‘purist’ – perhaps more to do with the inner man.

I care not what others think of me, but I care what I think of myself.

"Gentleman or Player" and you a Scot?


Good God man you sound like the elite at the MCC when amateurs were called Gentlemen and listed on the card as Mr. or Lord So and So. The professionals, called the Players, were treated as the proletariat

I have seen many a man play as do you, carrying his bag, playing the shot as he thinks fit without the aid of yardages...but that did not make him a gentleman.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

"Gentleman or Player" and you a Scot?


Good God man you sound like the elite at the MCC when amateurs were called Gentlemen and listed on the card as Mr. or Lord So and So. The professionals, called the Players, were treated as the proletariat

I have seen many a man play as do you, carrying his bag, playing the shot as he thinks fit without the aid of yardages...but that did not make him a gentleman.

Darn it, I wish I would have said that!

TH

[Anthony Gray]

   


   Tom,

   I agree with  your point during competition. But I rarely play hig stakes golf.

  Is not the true competition between the golfer and the course?
 
 Between the golfer and himself?





 

I too never play for high stakes.  But I do play in competition against other golfers from time to time.  And while the "true" competitions can indeed be golfer v. course and golfer v. himself, that doesn't preclude competing against others.

Look, if you find it some higher calling or something to compete against others who are using distance information while avoiding it yourself, then more power to you.   I just find that to be silly. 

TH

   Tom,


  I do not disagree with you in any way. I do believe the most accurate distance information is with your senses. Your  sight, touch etc. For the shot I believe it is better to draw on your past experiences and your senses ( Weather Conditions etc. )  than a laser. From the same distance I play a par three at my course with either a 7 or 8 iron. Somedays it feels like a 7 some days it feels like an 8. I am not a slave to a certian distance. Somedays its a blonde somedays its a redhead.

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony:

Then you have a wonderful skill, and none of this matters to you.

That skill has been beaten out of most of us due to the easy availability of distance information - and I don't mean use of any electronic device, but rather clear markings on the ground.  It's pretty easy to ascertain from experience how far one hits a normal 7 iron, and then when faced with that distance, hit a normal 7iron.  You then adjust based on conditions.  You have to see this logic, right?

So I for one see zero need to delete the distance part of this and go just by feel, acquiring (or re-acquiring in my case) the skill that seems so fundamental to you; not so long as courses are so clearly marked, which damn near all are - and especially not when when the opponents use the information available.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

   


    Melvyn,

   One man's regurgitation is an other man's pot of gold. Captain my Captain......Regurgitate Onward!!!!!!!!!


   Tom,

  To each his own. I use yardages but I am not controlled by them. There is no right or wrong on this topic just preferences. I like oranges to apples. Trevino to Watson. Seve to Miller. But 30 40 50 yardage markers...... Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony:

Very well.  Your implication that I am controlled by distances is somewhat disturbing, but in the end, to each his own.

I'd prefer a game in which gauging distance would be part of the skill.

The game I play disallows that in competition.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

   


   Tom,

   Sorry... No implication intended. Golf is a game of distances. But I find great pleasure in feeling the shot. At my home course there is an uphill par three around 200 yards. I can get there with a 4 iron or a 5 wood. But I bunt my driver and finish under par on the hole for the year. I do not look at the yardage and say I'll hit my 200 yard club. I do not have disrespect for the people that fly the ball on. One of my fellow players hates it. He says "Use the tools for what they are ment for". Others love watching it.


   To each his own. The problem I have with the people that use the devices and have to have exact yardages is that they seem to slow play.


  Is it your experience that these players play slow?

[Tom Huckaby]

My experience is indeed that the greater the slave one is to distance, the slower he does tend to play.

But that being said, here in America, if one was to remove all distance information, it would take a LONG time for anyone to get used to it enough to play fast.  The net effect would indeed be slower play.  That's why I am FOR laser distance devices... in the reality we have here, the use of such makes play go faster, as these slaves to distance get their information much more quickly than they do searching for sprinkler heads and stepping off distances to such.

I'd love the dream world in which we all gauge distances ourselves, with no information help.  Unfortunately, I play golf here in the real world.

BTW, if you are so against distance information, how do you know that hole is about 200 yards?  And why does that matter?

 

[C. Squier]

Clint

Sorry, I don’t follow, why do you have to question my beliefs, your earlier post (in my Blind Hole topic) stated very firmly that “We know your stance, it doesn't need to be regurgitated in every post”. So why question it?

Melvyn, your version of a discussion goes in one of two directions.  If someone agrees with you, they're extolled as persons with higher morals.  If they disagree, you belittle them by telling them to have fun with their "toys" or "version" of golf and question their worth as human beings.  In this thread alone you've correlated a person using distance markers as people who have problems in the bedroom.  It's both shallow and rude.  I have no problems with you playing without distances or even your preference to never play in the US.  But you have no room for anyone who may prefer to play the game differently than you.  

I do appreciate your passion for protecting the future of the game.  If the crusade against distances is a priority, I'd look at the link below instead of arguing with me.  I'm told one of the very best yardage guides is sold in the golf shop at St. Andrews.  Gives proper lines of play and yardages, making a caddy a non-requirement, even for a first timer.  I think that's a shame, playing the Old Course with a caddy and my senses alone is on my short list.  

http://www.standrews.org.uk/golf/the_courses/old_course_hole_guide.html

[Kirk Gill]

Tom, we've never played golf together so I don't really know your game, but in reading your posts on this thread a question came to mind. How much of an effect does knowing yardages have on your score? Have you ever tested it?

What I'm getting is an attempt to quantify for a golfer of your caliber the actual amount of advantage provided by these measuring tools. I don't think I am personally a good test case for this, as I don't really use any yardage more complicated than the 150 yard markers, and I'm not good enough for the knowledge to make any difference.

But for you, how much difference does it make? And if the people you are competing against are using them, how much of a quantifiable advantage are they getting?  

Just wondering.........

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, we've never played golf together so I don't really know your game, but in reading your posts on this thread a question came to mind. How much of an effect does knowing yardages have on your score? Have you ever tested it?

What I'm getting is an attempt to quantify for a golfer of your caliber the actual amount of advantage provided by these measuring tools. I don't think I am personally a good test case for this, as I don't really use any yardage more complicated than the 150 yard markers, and I'm not good enough for the knowledge to make any difference.

But for you, how much difference does it make? And if the people you are competing against are using them, how much of a quantifiable advantage are they getting?  

Just wondering.........

Kirk:

First of all bear in mind I am NOT that good of a player.  My index is 4.5.  I never broke 80 any of the rounds on my recent Colorado/Nebraska expedition.  There are WAY better players than me in here.

BUT since you asked... I think I posted something to this effect earlier in this thread... or perhaps it was in another thread....

An example happened recently at Ballyneal - two man chapman match - my partner and I had no distance info, the others used a Bushnell.  We got killed.  Misjudging distances cost us several holes.

I haven't really tested it much beyond that; but that example was telling to me. 

Note if we all agreed to stop using such... and/or if you gave me a little time to readjust to using my own eyes... I do believe that in time, I'd get good at it and the negative effect wouldn't be that much, if any.  In fact over time, I bet it would become a net positive as I became more attuned to feeling and hitting shots, rather than just taking swings.  I play a lot by feel as it is, and hit a lot of clubs that others think are crazy, so I think I have a head start on this.

But still, put me as I am today, with no informational help... against another at the same skill level using distance information... and well, bet on my opponent.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

 


  Tom,


  I guess I'm old school. But that does not mean I'm saying old school is better. I use 100 150 and 200 markers as a general guide. I find it enjoyable to use other factors other than yardage for club selection.

   Melvyn,

  Golf does imitate life. I do not worry about distances in the bedroom.

[C. Squier]

   


   Tom,

   Sorry... No implication intended. Golf is a game of distances. But I find great pleasure in feeling the shot. At my home course there is an uphill par three around 200 yards. I can get there with a 4 iron or a 5 wood. But I bunt my driver and finish under par on the hole for the year. I do not look at the yardage and say I'll hit my 200 yard club. I do not have disrespect for the people that fly the ball on. One of my fellow players hates it. He says "Use the tools for what they are ment for". Others love watching it.


   To each his own. The problem I have with the people that use the devices and have to have exact yardages is that they seem to slow play.


  Is it your experience that these players play slow?

If sprinkler heads said "about 150" instead of 157, that would be fine.  Besides Johnny Miller in his prime, knowing that it's exactly 157 is worthless.....but they don't make them rounded off, they make them exact.  I'm "about" 6 feet tall, but my driver's license says 5 ft 11 inches.  Similar information which provides the same info to the police officer who just pulled me over for speeding.  

Slow players are slow.  Fast players are fast.  I've watched grass grow underneath a player's feet who had the BEST caddy available at a club who had the yardage to the penny the second the player got to his ball.  Whereas a fast player can pace off yardages without wasting a second if they use proper course etiquette.  Course design also plays a big part, distance is much more important to a course that's designed for the aerial game as opposed to the ground game.....and I would say that is a fault to such a course.  You shouldn't need to be tied to distances, but if every green is fronted by gaping hazards, well there isn't much you can do except narrow in on a proper distance.  

As for your 200 yard par 3.....you know that you hit your bunt driver about 200 yards.  That's using distances.  But it's also being creative with your shotmaking, which makes golf fun.  You're not a robot, even though you know the exact yardage.  Why assume that someone with a rangefinder wouldn't hit the same bunt driver?  I think that's a stretch and unfair to say.  

Bottom line, if you can hold a fun conversation, play with etiquette and in or around 3:45 or less.....I don't care if you use a star chart to plan your next shot, much less a distance marker.  The game is supposed to be fun, not sort people into the moral or immoral piles.  

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