grain

[John_D._Bernhardt]

It seems grain is tough problem. Our super used to say it is just a burmuda thing. Now since we have tiff eagle he says its not there.lol Well if you putt its there. lol Most of the courses I play in this part of the world have some level of grain issue. It seems alot of courses I play worldwide do too. what can be done to get the grain out.

[RT (Guest)]

light, frequent, vertical mowing

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Bernhardt,

Some people like grain, perhaps because they think it gives them a local advantage.

Reading the grain used to be a skill.  
Wouldn't that facet be removed if grain was eradicated.

Are you sure you want to eliminate grain ??

Will uneven lies be next ?  

[Joe Hancock]

I remember reading an article a couple years ago about a course somewhere that was re-introducing grain into their greens by NOT verticutting, using solid rollers, no brushing, etc. The mindset was all about what the course used to play like and the local knowledge factor. Interesting thought, but....when you've putted on such manicured greens for so long, does one actually accept these new, grainy greens? I dunno....

Joe

[John_Conley]

10th year in Florida and I find the "reading the grain" issue vastly overrated.  I don't pay any mind to it and I don't know any amateurs that putt better than I do.  I attribute this to my assumption that grain generally grows downhill.  Uphill putts play super-slow and downhill putts aren't slow.  You can look for brown edges on the cup, point toward the setting sun, and brush the turf looking for dull and sheen.  I'll just bang up the hills.

Can anything be done?  Ultradwarfs like Tifeagle and Champion are much better.  Unless you are playing late in the day, a short mowing height seems to take out whatever grain there is.

I don't call it grain around Orlando.  I define the greens as "chewy" and notice my ball will fall off as it loses speed and the green "chews it up and spits it out".

Nothing combats grain like pace.  Bang, bang, bang and you will make more putts.  (This is great until you go back to the Midwest or Northeast!!)

[TEPaul]

Huntingdon Valley is the course that has dedicatedly tried to reintroduce grain in their greens and what they've done is  fascinating.

It definitely reintroduced a look and a very complex "playability"! It seems on some greens it's much more prevalent and complex than others. I do know to see and putt on the back half of #15 is like nothing I've ever seen.

I've never known much about grain and have frankly never cared much either but to watch the ball on the back left corner of #15 go downhill and down-grain too (on what I call that sickening sheen) is something to see--it's like the ball just doesn't want to ever stop!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Pat A little grain is ok golf and local knowledge is a differnet subjct. The first time I played with Gib at Olympic we were even going to 17. I had a short birdie to tie the hole. It was a straight 6 foot putt that broke 6 inches due to grain that could not be seen as per lack of light. Gib just smiles as I asked him about it for after 16 holes i had noticed a little action of the greens. Need less to say that is the best i have ever done against him on his home course. I do not find 5 to 7 inches of grain on a 20 foot putt to be good golf though. that is why I am asking how to address it.

[RT (Guest)]

light, frequent, vertical mowing ...... to also keep thatch levels in control for a healthier turfgrass plant.

[Donnie Beck]

A light frequent verticut/topdress program should help.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

What do you feel is frequent? weekly, bi weekly monthly?

[A_Clay_Man]

I have heard from several people that Poa doesn't have grain. I tend to disagree, but will acknowledge that it has less grain than most. Also because of the nature of Poa it does help to Bang the ball into the cup.  

Plus, unless you plan on rollin at 5-8 on the stemp, grain should only be considered at twilight.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Bernhardt,

A STRAIGHT SIX FOOT BIRDIE PUTT THAT BROKE 6 INCHES.

Are you sure that you and Gib hadn't had one bottle of red too many and were putting on a shag carpet in the clubhouse

[Ed_Baker]

Interesting and timely thread.

We are in the middle of a hellacious controversy at our club on this very subject.

Our superintendent is in his second season at the club and he is one of the finest agronomists that I have ever seen. His particular brand of alchemy has produced more healthy turf on the entire golf course and particularly on the greens than we thought possible. The result is that the greens putt differently, there is nothing wrong with them, they are just different, there is a lot more grass on them. We are used to hitting twenty foot putts that you can literally read the label on the ball for the last foot of the putt and then watch it fall in to the hole. Now, if the putt doesn't have enough speed on it to hit the back of the hole it won't go in. The pace is such that the ball has to have enough speed on it at the hole that if it misses it will roll two feet past, not unreasonable, isn't Dave Peltz "magic" pace twenty inches past the hole or something?

This phenomena has caused a hue and cry from the membership that is unbelievable. For the first time that anyone can remeber guests probably have an advantage putting because they are more likely to just read "what is" rather than what "used to be." I probably miss more putts now because of memory putting than most because I have been around the place for so long, but that is my problem not the greens, I just can't bring myself to hit it hard enough especially on downhill putts.

This past weekend the members were all over the Green Chairman and superintendent for what really is a non problem, there is more healthy tight turf on the greens than ever before and call it grain,texture,whatever,the ball needs more speed at the hole to hold its line,period. With our severe contours and change in roll characteristics, the greens are even more challenging.

I think to a degree that we have acheived a "Huntingdon Valley" success and yet the majority of members are screaming. I even heard a group second guessing all the tree removal saying that all the sunlight and air circulation has "allowed too much grass to grow." Imagine!

I say, bring on the grain, and support your local superintendent, send the whiners to Bob Rotella and Dave Peltz putting school,sheesh!

[Bob_Huntley]

If you want to see grain, play a few rounds in Southern Africa. Bobby Locke played Sam Snead in an exhibition tour around 1946-7 in South Africa. Of the fifteen matches played, Locke won twelve of them. Snead could never get the hang of the greens, whereas Locke, a superb putter on any surface, read them like PhD. It was after this visit that Snead told Locke he could make it on the US Tour.

Snead returned to the States and told Clayton Heafner about this roly-poly  from the jungle and how good a player he was. Heafner then entered into a betting string with Lloyd Mangrum, won a bunch of money and Mangrum's Cadillac.

[Donnie Beck]

I would recommend a bi-weekly verticut and light top dressing program. There have been major improvements in topdressing equipments over the past few years. With the new equipment you can easily verticut and topdress 18 greens in 4 hours or less depending on the size of the greens.