[Brad Tufts]

Gentlemen,

A topic that has been discussed before, I know, but this is specific:

My brother (and GCA guy) Roger and I are playing 6 rds. in central NY over Columbus Day weekend.  We are looking for 2/day on Sat./Sun./Mon., and we will be based at Cornell where Rog is a student.

For Sat, we have Hiawatha booked for early, and were thinking Mark Twain or En-Joie for the PM round.

For Sun., we were thinking 36 at Leatherstocking (its far, I know, but at least no driving in between, a good replay rate, and Rog has long wanted to see it).

For Mon., we were thinking Cornell AM (simple, Rog is a student), and perhaps Ithaca CC in the PM, if a banked invite pans out.

We had thought Seven Oaks would be a good one to pair with L'Stocking, but we couldn't get an early enough time to drive and play LS before dark...

Are we on the right track here?  Any suggestions for replacements?  Public courses are the focus at this point.  The decisions mainly center around the PM round on Sat. and the PM round on Monday if ICC is a no go.  I think we are generally locked in for Leatherstocking. 

Thanks!

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

Proximity is a consideration here, especially at this time of year as I'm sure you know.   

Personally, I'd rather pair Mark Twain with Soaring Eagles, and Scott Burroughs can vouch for both.    Hiawatha is good, but nearby En-Joie is sort of a Frankensteinian creature these days with way too many design styles on a largely flat, flood-prone property.

You cannot go wrong with Leatherstocking.   36 there is the right move.   It's awesome, but you might want to take a cart your second 18 as there are some serious hill climbs.

Seven Oaks is ok, but not worth passing up a second 18 at LS.   

[Cory Lewis]

If you can get on Teugega CC.  Then Teugega and Thendera is a great Donald Ross combination. 

[Brad Tufts]

Thanks Mike, I figured as much about a guaranteed 36 at LS vs. 7 Oaks.

Would love to see Teugega CC Cory, but no outlet for doing that, save begging...I don't know much about Thendara save a brief perusal of their website, which doesn't offer much.

[John Foley]

Brad,

Thats a lot of driving.

First of all 36 at Hiawatha.

Skip En-Joie, Conklin is nice & Mark Twain is very good but the second 18 @ Hiawathat, especially if you've not played before, is the best bet.

36 at Leatherstocking is a no brainer.  It is that good. The 9 hole at the top of the lake is pretty cool also.

I liked Seven Oaks, but the others are better.

You may want to call Yahnundasis - they may be able to help and it would be well worth it.

[Ronald Montesano]

That's really more south-central than central, since it takes Syracuse out of the picture.  I would recommend mark twain and leatherstocking at the top, along with Yahnundasis as the top private club.  If you could get to Syracuse, things would be different.  I'd recommend Bellevue as a must-play private (Donald Ross) and Lafayette Hills (Tillinghast) as a must-play public.  I'd put Conklin and EnJoie in the same grouping, with Hiawatha a bit higher (although 18 will disappoint.) 

[John Blain]

Ronald,

I would hardly describe Bellevue as a "must-play" Donald Ross. Trust me, there is very little Ross left.....LaFayette Hills as a must-play Tillinghast? I'm not sure who did Lafayette Hills but I can almost assure you it wasn't Tillinghast.

You would be much better off at Radisson or Green Lakes - two fairly nice RTJ courses in Syracuse.

 - John

[Ronald Montesano]

Did an article on Lafayette Hills this year for New York Golf.  It was Tillinghast.  Bellevue is the number one course for scratch golfers in Syracuse, just as Crag Burn is near Buffalo.  Great golfers can't be wrong.  Take that!

[John Blain]

Bellevue may be the number one course for sctatch players in Syracuse but everyone knows that the Cavalry Club (Dick Wilson) is the best private club layout in CNY.

Actually Seven Oaks is better than both of them.

Totally agree on Crag Burn. It's the best RTJ course I've ever played. I was there this week. It's one of those special places.

 - John

[John Foley]

I like Bellvue alot, but it has a few weak holes such as #2 & #8.

The holes on top of the hill are very good.

Didn't Ron Prichard due a pretty extensive re-do or was it not implemented?

[Ronald Montesano]

I cede to the more knowledgeable, although Steve Aloi, head pro at Bellvue, emphasized the Ross lineage.

When were you at Crag Burn?  I might have been there with my big Green team from Nichols School.

[John Blain]

Ron,

I'm the Sun Mountain rep (along with four other lines) in upstate New York so I was at Crag Burn peddling my wares.

I saw your story on Steve Aloi. Very nice piece on a very, very good guy and a good golf professional. I'm actually seeing him this week. I've played a lot of golf at Bellevue over the years and I've always enjoyed playing there and you are correct - it's a very strong playing membership. I qualified for my only US Amateur there in '95 so it's hard for me to dislike the place although some people don't care for it - they say it's too hilly.
Unfortunately not much Ross is left. Holes 11-14 were put in in the early seventies by Frank Duane to make room for a practice area....

John Foley - I believe Pritchard is still on retainer and he has put together a master plan but I don't believe too much has been implemented so far....

 - John

[Ronald Montesano]

Crag Burn is one of those RTJSr. courses that defy his usual penal approach.  It is so darned playable, all the way around.  The property isn't that great, but the water courses are used brilliantly.  I contrast it with Bristol Harbour in Canandaigua, a course I dislike.  Don't know if you've seen it, but the new public about five miles from Crag Burn, Harvest Hill, has a Bethpage feel to it...a largeness.  The funny thing is, the par three holes initially seem uninspired but, the more I play it, the more I find about them.  The fours are very good and the fives are wonderful.  Hope you get a chance to play it.

[John Blain]

Ron,

I echo your thoughts on Crag Burn. I'm not sure I have ever met a person that has played CB that doesn't think that it's really, really good. A club pro friend of mine who used to work for RTJ, Sr. told me that of all the courses RTJ designed he considered Crag Burn his personal favorite.

I'm hearing really good things about Harvest Hill. I took a ride over there last spring and looked around and it looked really good. All the Buffalo people that I know and respect are telling me good things about it.....

On another note, Whitten and Cornish's book "The Golf Course" has LaFayette CC (that's what it was called before new ownership took over a few years ago). being designed by Seymor Dunn. In all honesty in all the years I've lived up here I've never heard anyone refer to LaFayette as a Tillinghast. Maybe you know something I don't but I honestly believe it was Dunn and not Tillinghast who designed it.

 - John

[Ronald Montesano]

I'll recheck my sources.

[Steve Hyden]

Thanks Mike, I figured as much about a guaranteed 36 at LS vs. 7 Oaks.

Would love to see Teugega CC Cory, but no outlet for doing that, save begging...I don't know much about Thendara save a brief perusal of their website, which doesn't offer much.

If you call head pro Steve Nasewicz you may be surprised how accommodating Teugega can be.  They are the anti-snobs.

[JNC Lyon]

Play Mark twain over En-Joie.  It is a great Ross built on the side of a mountain.  the greens are wild, and the course is tons of fun.  I have never played Hiawatha but I'm guessing seeing both courses would be preferred.

[John Foley]

John Blain -

I did not know that 11-14 we're not Ross holes. Funny because they are some of my favorite's on the curse.

Are you in Upstate? If so maybe we can get a Upstate group outing together before the snow flies?

[Dan Boerger]

As much as I love the Old Forge/Inlet area, I would not recommend Thendara if the golf course is your focus. An open Donald Ross front nine, with a suffocating back nine. Fun, to be sure, but not so memorable.

I would second Teugega. And the Yahnundasis. It's really worth a call, and remember it isn't Pine Valley we're talking about here.

[Brad Tufts]

Hey Guys....

Thanks for all the recommendations.

Our itinerary reads....

Sat...Hiawatha/Cornell
Sun...Leatherstocking 36
Mon...Lafayette Hills/Yahnundasis

I know there will be lots of driving, but the average age of the two of us is 23, so now's the time.

Teugega was a no-go, will have to try another time.  I will, however, be spending the rest of my week in upstate NY for business, and I plan to see South Shore GC in Buffalo, Seven Oaks, CC of Troy, and CC of Pittsfield as I make my way back to Boston as the week goes by.  I plan to take some pics...and slowly release them to break up the winter layoff!

I've learned that there are plenty of courses to see, so I will have to save another trip for Teugega, Turning Stone, Thendara and the Rochester courses!

-Brad

[JNC Lyon]

Definitely check out Seven Oaks, even if you don't play it.  I have a bias because I play it every day during the college months (when there isn't snow on the ground).  Holes 1, 2, 4-7, 10, 14-16, 18 are all of interest.

[Jay Flemma]

Add Conlkin Brad, but enjoy Hiawatha and Yahnundasis.

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

Enjoy, and we want a full report!   
 
Mike

[Brad Tufts]

I was scared away from Conklin by the island green...but I will get to it eventually I'm sure.

The Harvest Hill course looks pretty decent on their website.

I have Mark Twain and Soaring Eagles on the list as well.

[Ronald Montesano]

Don't know why everyone loves Conklin so much...Why South Shore in Hamburg?  Harvest Hill is much, much better, although our local high school tourney is there the 13th, so don't try to play it Monday.  How long will you be in Buffalo?  I can give you four courses better than South Shore, unless you want to see a Stiles/Van Kleek course (South Shore.)

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