[BCrosby]

I am impressed. Not so much with the speed of the new mini-verdes, but with their firmness. Even lofted wedges seem to take a bounce or two.

The greens don't give up pitch marks. They are hard under foot.

Dare I suggest that - due to the firmness of the greens - angles now matter with longer approaches at EL? Even for the best players in the world? Which to say that, at least on some holes at EL, the architecture matters?

Firmness is far more important than mere stimp speed in a set-up. Ultra dwarfs afford that firmness. I am coming round to the view that converting to one of the Bermuda ultra dwarfs is the future in the SE. After watching the pros at EL, it's pretty much QED. 

Bob

[Mike_Young]

Bob,
Glad to see you up at such an early hour on the weekend......I bet you got some of that chai tea going and eating blueberries or something.

I agree with you on the ultradwarfs but I think the firmness is more due to the USGA green constrcution and will ease much as an organic layer evolves over the next couple of years  BUT will still be better than bent....I also think that clubs should not tell the memberships they are painting the greens...just do it and they will ever know it.....
Well  I see your brother out in the yard....and I hear you have NO gas in ATL this morning.....

[BCrosby]

Mike - I'm shocked you are logged on too. I thought for sure you'd be busy packing your ice chest with beer, fried rinds and Slim Jims for the NASCAR race this afternoon.

On a less serious note, are you saying that an organic layer with reduce firmness inevitably? Or can that be addressed by aggressive aeration?

EL get relatively little play. How much firmness can you maintain with ultra dwarfs on a course that gets 35K rounds a year?

Bob

[BCrosby]

Mike - If you haven't already left for the stock car race (you taking your jacked up pick-up with the extra wide truck tires or is that still on cinder blocks in your front yard?), I got another question for you and the peanut gallery.

People went to Bermuda back 100 years ago because it was the only grass that would survive the heat of the summers in the SE. At the time it was viewed as the best of several bad alternatives.

But the new dwarfs strike me as so good, have the tables turned? Mightn't it make sense for more northern courses to go to the new dwarfs given that they need less water, can be kept firmer and are just as fast and smooth as bent?

The downside would be that they would stay dormant longer, and maybe that's the killer. Still, I would think a lot more border states ought to consider the idea.

Bob   

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Mike is probably right that a lot of the firmness may just be a function of new greens. It seems to me on most all newly constructed courses the greens are really firm for a year or so.

If that's the case at EL the deal longterm will probably be if those ultra dwarfs really like dryness.

How about the approaches at EL? Are they firm too?

If the greens are really firm, the approaches pretty much should be too. This is the IMM we're talking about here Bob.

If you give players really firm greens and soft approaches that is bad, bad, bad. That's when the set-up is total Anti-IMM and real CaCa.

That's what they did at Bay Hill----twice! Bad, bad, bad, deep CaCaCaCa!

[Tom Jefferson]

"If that's the case at EL the deal longterm will probably be if those ultra dwarfs really like dryness."

Tom Paul; Yes, maintenance with 'dryness', also combined with management of the thatch layer by frequent topdressing and a prudent, spare, nutritional program.

Muy importanto, otherwise "Si....muy malo...mucho CaCa."

Fast and firm here in Bandon,
Tom

[TEPaul]

"But the new dwarfs strike me as so good, have the tables turned? Mightn't it make sense for more northern courses to go to the new dwarfs given that they need less water, can be kept firmer and are just as fast and smooth as bent?"


Bob:

No, no, NO! Don't you dare suggest such a thing. Bad, Bad, BAD. CaCaCaCaCa! That's like telling the North that Jefferson Davis should run for the presidency.

Our new bents like the "A" strain etc lilililikes dryness too. Liiiikes dryness very much. Firm, firm, Firm.


No, no, no bermuda up north, ultra dwarf or any other bermuda. Bad, Bad, Bad---like trying to put water hyacinth in the Hudson River. Would be considered a Southern conspiracy and might start a new Civil War------bad, bad, bad, CaCaCaCa!


By the way, Bob, if Barack wins I'm going to set up a new-age Carpetbagger franchiser. Would you like to be one of the first Atlanta franchisees? Among other things we're going to force the South to go to bent. You can have that division. You'll make a fortune as all the Georgia courses will have to replant every year.

[BCrosby]

TEP -

You are too late. The conspiracy is afoot. We will be forcing northerners to drink sweet iced tea, eat fried okra and play on ultra dwarf greens.

I will petition the tribunal to make an exception for Gulph Mills, but I wouldn't hold my breath. You will learn to like all three of those things eventually. Indeed, eventually you will curse your momma and poppa for not exposing you to them sooner.

As for EL, it has zoysia fw's and green surrounds, so no, the approaches aren't anywhere near as firm as the green. Until they take out the zoysia (highly unlikely) that's not going to change. Which is too bad because the greens are almost Golf Club Atlas perfect.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"I will petition the tribunal to make an exception for Gulph Mills,"


Bob:

You're not going to believe this but GMGC went to a combo of rye/bermuda fairways in the 1960s. When we did the research on that when we went to bent about 12 years ago, we found the only other course that did something like that was in St. Louis!

[Chip Gaskins]

I too noticed how much better East Lake looked.  A lot firmer than the past. 

Could this new grass really make a firm and fast golf course a possibility in the southeast?  East Lake leads me to think so.

Are there any other courses that have recently planted the new ultra dwarfs?  Does it grow well in sand?  Does it go completely dormant in the winter?

[A.G._Crockett]

I too noticed how much better East Lake looked.  A lot firmer than the past. 

Could this new grass really make a firm and fast golf course a possibility in the southeast?  East Lake leads me to think so.

Are there any other courses that have recently planted the new ultra dwarfs?  Does it grow well in sand?  Does it go completely dormant in the winter?

Is Champion Bermuda considered to be an ultra dwarf?  If so, LOTS of places are going that way.

Yes, it does go completely dormant in the winter, at least around Atlanta.  The courses keep tarps greenside to cover the greens on nights when the temps go below a certain number.

Anybody know an average per green cost of converting to Champion or one of the others?

[Steve Okula]

People went to Bermuda back 100 years ago because it was the only grass that would survive the heat of the summers in the SE. At the time it was viewed as the best of several bad alternatives.

But the new dwarfs strike me as so good, have the tables turned? Mightn't it make sense for more northern courses to go to the new dwarfs given that they need less water, can be kept firmer and are just as fast and smooth as bent?

The downside would be that they would stay dormant longer, and maybe that's the killer. Still, I would think a lot more border states ought to consider the idea.
  

But winter dormancy isn't the only concern. There is also the possibility of winter kill if you go too far north. Bermudagrass just won't survive extended cold temperatures. How cold or how long depends on the variety.

[JMEvensky]

Anybody know an average per green cost of converting to Champion or one of the others?
[/quote]

In Memphis,we went from Penncross to Champion 2 years ago.~ $115,000 all in for 20 greens.

[Mike_Young]

The sq. ft cost for a no till champion green is around .55 cents per sq ft......add fumigation, a few adjustments etc and you would probably be at 1.25 per sq ft  or $125,000 for 100,000 sq ft.

[Bill_McBride]

I too noticed how much better East Lake looked.  A lot firmer than the past. 

Could this new grass really make a firm and fast golf course a possibility in the southeast?  East Lake leads me to think so.

Are there any other courses that have recently planted the new ultra dwarfs?  Does it grow well in sand?  Does it go completely dormant in the winter?

How can a course be fast & firm with zoysia fairways and surrounds?

When I played there post zoysia, it was more G & G (gooey & gummy) than F & F.

[JMEvensky]

I too noticed how much better East Lake looked.  A lot firmer than the past. 

Could this new grass really make a firm and fast golf course a possibility in the southeast?  East Lake leads me to think so.

Are there any other courses that have recently planted the new ultra dwarfs?  Does it grow well in sand?  Does it go completely dormant in the winter?

How can a course be fast & firm with zoysia fairways and surrounds?

When I played there post zoysia, it was more G & G (gooey & gummy) than F & F.

Zoysia doesn't really lend itself to F&F.Would EL be mowing fairways under 1/2"?Why wouldn't they re-grass approaches/surrounds with TifSport or similar?

[BCrosby]

Yes, EL has zoysia fw's and the perfect maintenance meld ain't gonna happen there. But most courses in and around ATL have bermuda fw's. Which means that when you convert to ultra dwarfs the perfect m/m is at least possible.

Conversion costs at our club were estimated at $110K per 18 holes, which is nothing. The real cost is revenue losses due to the course closure for 10 weeks in mid summer.

But let's consider a hypothetical (as my professors used to say at law school). Assume ultra dwarf Bermudas survive Phillie winters. Would that be a better grass for Phillie golf courses? Can Phillie courses keep their bent as firm and fast in summer as EL can keep ultra dwarfs in summer?

Bob

[paul cowley]

New cold tolerant bermuda strains keep getting developed but I doubt Philly will ever see them....so rest easy TP.

We used mini verdi at the Patriot course we opened about six years ago, and it was the farthest north planting at the time[Greenwood SC]....a little risky but we had a great super in Billy Ford who was convinced of its viability.

He was right....its a great surface.

One thing I would caution EL on is not to OVERSEED.

At the Patriot they just lightly roll, use a little topdressing on occasion, and cut during warm spells when the grass starts to push a little, maybe a light paint spraying [which I could do without]....and in winter it can be the most FF and fun conditions of the entire year.

It will roll....sometimes too much.

I'd also bag the elitist zoysia in favor of bermuda.

I really don't like the contrasts between bermuda rough, zoysia fairways and bent greens...its got to be hell maintaining three grass types, but what I really dislike is the inability to be able to change cut lines between the grass types...you are pretty much stuck with the cut lines that you plant and don't have the flexibility for change that you do with an all bermuda course.

Paspalum is creeping north and that's going to rule! Much better sitting up conditions as compared to zoysia....plus it likes to grow, and is not as finicky as zoysia...... a ryzome looks like bermuda on steroids!



I keep trying to experiment with a paspalum/bermuda mix in areas but with little success....supers are too cautious with blends and generally prefer growing monocultures....unfortunately.

[Chip Gaskins]

so i wonder what the line is not to go north of for ultra dwarfs?

if someone was building a new course and wanted firm and fast conditions and knew ultra dwarfs would allow that, would raleigh/nashville be the line to stop looking for land?  richmond?  DC?  Philly?  I certainly looks to be working in Atlanta now we will see how far north you can take it.

[paul cowley]

My guess for now would be southern Virginia and then across the northern part of the Piedmont/Appalachian foothills and stretching west to the Missippi.

Beyond that I'm inching out of my local territory...maybe Brauer knows.

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