[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The point I made -- and likely Adam as well though he can speak for himself -- is not that Paa-Ko Ridge is not a fine layout but that the totality of Black Mesa is a good bit better than the layout located in Sandia. You keep on saying the Santa Fe area layout is just ahead and from the sheer number of points that have been pushed forward it's clear to me the edge between the two courses is no where near as close.

Andy, you completely lose me on the internal dynamics / contour of the greens discussion. Baxter Spann did a helluva job there and I see Black Mesa being in the same league with what you see at a noteworthy place like Ballyneal on that front. Paa-Ko Ridge is primarily tame and fairly easy to decipher. In clear terms, the need for precise approaches is not called upon atthe same level of intensity as you see with Black Mesa.

Adam's point, which I think you overlooked, is that placement off the tee at BM does matter a great deal. There's far less of that at Paa-Ko Ridge.

Andy, really c'mon -- if you think the 6th at Paa-Ko is better than either the 7th or 14th holes at BM then we are really in different time frames. The 6th at Paa-Ko is a decent short par04 but where are the different playing angles. Where does it matter what side of the fairway you land? The two at BM can be played in a far different number of ways for different type players. You also have greens at both of them that are far more complex and require pin point control with the approach. The driveable nature of the two at BM is possible but the factor of DBing any of the two is more likely if you fail.

Keep in mind Andy, the issue I am basing this on is the greatest range of options for the greatest range of players. The 7th and 14th at BM have that in spades. Frankly, as many people who wax poetically about the greatness of the 16th at Pac Dunes, and it's a fine hole, seem to forget just how good the two at BM truly are.

One final point -- BM is NEVER soft or mush-like unless the heavens open up and it would take a mega storm to slow the place down. I have played Paa-Ko Ridge when balls did strike the ground and didn't move more than a very few yards. Hats off to Pat Brockwell for an outstanding job on keeping the course firm and fast unimformly.

Andy - I know we can agree on this - both NM courses do provide a good bit for what they charge.

Dan K:

The issue of what Jeff B did in Minnesota has been mentioned previously on this thread and they are two layouts I have not played to date but I respect the people who have weighed in with such favorable comments.

* * *

[Jim Franklin]

I don't do rankings; nor have I done sufficient heavy lifting to do so.

But I have a hunch, having played them, that two of Jeff Brauer's courses in northern Minnesota -- The Quarry at Giants Ridge and The Wilderness at Fortune Bay -- deserve serious consideration in this category.

Dan -

I have not played Black Mesa or Paa-ko Ridge, but have played The Quarry at Giants Ridge and it is one of the best courses I have seen anywhere. It is most certainly top 10 public for my money. It was a fun course from start to finish with some very exciting holes. I am sorry I do not get to Minnesota that often (ha, once in 47 years), but I was thrilled to be able to play The Quarry. I played all of the top Minnesota courses that trip and dare say I liked The Quarry the best.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy - I know we can agree on this - both NM courses do provide a good bit for what they charge.

Lets just agree on that point, I think we've defended our positions and we'll leave it at that. I'm going out to both of them with a couple friends this weekend to play and will be interested to see what they both think.

By the way, #6 at Paa-Ko depends hugely on where the pin is located. Getting a ball from the left side of the fairway to a left pin from 50 yards would be difficult for most folks. When the pin is on the right there is more option to swing away because the green is significantly deeper. Missing left with that left pin is deadsville.

I've never played Paa-Ko in mush-like conditions either and I've played it at different times of the year, either I've been regularly lucky or you were not.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Be sure the guys who play BM w you - play from the tee markers that they can handle. If BM is played from the tips and the wind whips up to 15-20 mph+ then things can't get really demanding and when people are slopping it around that can leave a distasteful disposition.

BM doesn't handle fools who think they can play at a higher level. I've heard criticism of BM from people of that type and it makes me laugh at their own stupidity.

I'm sure your group undestands that though.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Is the golf that much better over the pond NOT ONE YOU WOULD PLAN A TRIP AROUND Nothing personal at all but I have a very hard time grasping that. You might need a few more trips !!        I agree with your staement of "In general though, there are loads more private courses I would rather see" Well ok I can knock out ten right of the bat from my tongue that are private that I would like to see to but that was not the thread's point. I also know chances are I'm never going to see them either .    However like others on this thread have mentioned there IS good public golf to be had if your willing to search for it.

I can not agree with you more on Pinehurst. I do like pine needles and the price is a little better. I love the area and the history but won't be playing #2 anytime soon.

The canadian courses you mentioned also have my intrest. Are you refering to Jasper Park ?? There is also a course named humber valley that is getting lot's of press and I have heard good things. Hmmm new thread , canadas best under a 100???   

Brad

I don't think the golf here is really any better.  Its just that I prefer the model to the typical American public course model.  

I would plan a trip to see Pacific Dunes- some day it will probably happen, but there is also the added bonus of other courses there which makes it easy for a tourista like me .  Remember, to plan a trip centered around 1 course can be quite an undertaking and not to be taken lightly. Jeepers, I hardly ever make it Sandwich which is one of a handful of "Plan a Trip Around It Courses" I have played and that is only a 3 hour drive!

There are many US publics I would like to see, but from what I can gather, they are mainly the type which you need to see a handful of to make the trip worthwhile.  Its just not feasible the way these things scattered over the country.  I know many push Black Mesa, but desert golf really doesn't appeal to me.  For me, if I am in the area, it may be worth a go.  Of Matt's list, the one that really stands out is Wild Horse, but I ain't going there unless Sand Hills is on the cards - thats just the way life is.  The other course I hope to see is the Mines, but that is fairly close to where I grew up so it isn't that hard to get to.  I also want to see Angels Crossing - which isn't on Matt's list.  Like Black Mesa, I am not bothered about the others.  That isn't to say that they aren't good courses, but in the big scheme of things, I think it highly unlikely that these are any better than regional gems.  Of course, I could be wrong, but I haven't seen anything in pix which really turned my head.  This isn't meant to sound harsh.  Its a realistic view given limited time, money and a penchant for revisiting favourites.  

In any case, despite what Matt believes, I do get what the thread is about and I do appreciate getting info on courses for when/if I am in town.    

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

You have to help me out -- you admit ...

"That isn't to say that they aren't good courses, but in the big scheme of things, I think it highly unlikely that these are any better than regional gems."

This was your comment on the nature of such places like Black Mesa and the others that were listed at the beginning of this thread. Help me out -- I know you said right after that comment you could be wrong but why even state such a conclusion when you have never played anyone of them to say with a high degree of certainty?

I don't doubt you and others may never see the courses in question. How bout just leaving it at that before jumping off the cliff and proclaiming that they are likely not going to be anything more than a regional best type course.

You also state Black Mesa is desert golf and the reality is that the course is less than the stereotypical notion that many people erroneously have about what the course is about. There are plenty of areas for recovery and the nature of the course is far from the "sink or swim" design features that often times straightjacket players when they play bonafide desert courses that are way too penal in most instances.

Sean, you say you aren't being "harsh" but you are doing exactly what you claim you are not doing. You are drawing definitive conclusions without the personal research to back it up. I understand that circumstances of each person may not allow the time, money and / or opportunity to travel at-will. I would just hope that people who have limited situations not go to extremes to point out how limited or regionalistic such courses may be when they have not played them to truly weigh in with a much clearer assessment.

Sean, American public golf is much more dynamic than what you think or believe. If you simply scan and draw conclusions from second or third hand sources and then weigh in with a set opinion -- in actuality it makes you come off in a certain way. I leave it to you to decide whether that's flattering or not.

[Richard Hetzel]

I  played BOTH the Trophy Club and Purgatory this year and The Trophy Club is the better course, hands down. I enjoyed Purgatory, but it really wasn't as good as it is marketed to be.

Here are a few pics of the Trophy Club:

















Matt,

I concur on Lakewood Shores. We spent 3 days there in July and one couldn't have been MORE DISAPPOINTED with the golf. Average at best.

The Trophy Club played as nice as it looks in the above pics...

[Matt_Ward]

Rich:

Great pics -- just for curiosity - how firm and fast did the course play. When I was there the last time it was simply a joy to behold.

Like I said before -- the State of Indiana has some really fun and unique courses and far too often Americans and likely foreigners would quickly dismiss going there for anything more than sheer ignorance.

[Richard Hetzel]

Matt,

It played firm enough that you had to think about your club selection when hitting into the greens. It looked "soft" in the pics, but it did not play as such. A nice change for sure.

I didn't mean to be so harsh on Purgatory, it was fun, but I also walked 18 there in a non-stop drizzle so that may have detracted from the overall experience.

I live in Cincinnati and MUCH MUCH prefer the course offerings in Indy. They have so many NICE courses and we just have a lot of cheap golf here.

I usually drive there 2-4 times per year and play a new course. The Fort is great as well, although it does not meet your criteria of 1998-2008.


PS: I am playing Blue Heron GC Saturday which was voted as a top upscale public for 2007 or 2008, I cannot remember.

[Jim Thompson]

Matt & Sean,

I have the perfect meeting place for you two.  Sean figure out when you'll be on this side of the pond and schedule it with Matt and come be my guest.  I'll get Crazy Joe and we can play Angels in the morning and the Mines in the afternoon.

JT

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Great post !

Maybe we can make a slight detour out west and hit a few of those as well.

Don't know if I would head to Angels but I hear good words about Sand Hollow in Hurricane, UT.

[Matt_Ward]

Have to mention New England does have a solid candidate for consideration in the category -- Crumpin-Fox Golf Course in Bernardston, MA.

Designed by Roger Rulewich, the 18-hole layout is well crafted and as a good a job as Rulewich did with Ballyowen, the CCFAD layout in Northern NJ -- the work here is well done with the course working its way through the mature forest and providing a wide variety of different holes and looks.

New England may not get much love when the national stage is the benchmark but from the several different times I have played the course it does offer a model by which other public courses of equal price range can aspire to being.

p.s. The 8th hole there -- 592 yards from the tips -- is arguably one of the best long par-5 holes among the affordable public courses I have played.

Just one final aspect -- I know the course opened (1990) prior to the time line mentioned but it does provide some serious quality public golf without emptying the wallet to do it.

[Cliff Hamm]

Have played Crumpin-Fox twice and can't agree totally with you on this one. Yes, it does provide quality golf for the price, but while above average there's a certain repetition with so many elevated greens.  As to the 8th certainly a solid hole but looks more like Florida than western Massachusetts.  As mentioned previously I would put Red Tail well above Crumpin-Fox in Massachusetts.  Frankly, also prefer the soon to be gone Waverly Oaks in the same price range.

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

We agree to disagree - I see the 8th as being as natural as can be given what was used there and what existed prior to the hole's creation.

Red Tail no doubt should be applauded -- but I wonder if you have ever played Shaker Hills in Harvard, MA and your opinion on that Brian Silva layout.

Last point on Crumpin-Fox -- the amount of disturbance from previous times I had had the opportunity to chat w Roger Rulewich is quite minimal and may get lost in the overall analysis on just how lofty the place truly is.

[Cliff Hamm]

Have not played Shaker Hills.  It is on the to do list.  Have heard it is rather tight.  Curious if others have an opinion? ... BTW I do love the atmosphere and setting of Crumpin Fox. No CCFAD crap and the staff have always been great.The proshop reminds me more than a little of Tobacco Road.

[Sean_A]

Matt & Sean,

I have the perfect meeting place for you two.  Sean figure out when you'll be on this side of the pond and schedule it with Matt and come be my guest.  I'll get Crazy Joe and we can play Angels in the morning and the Mines in the afternoon.

JT

Jim

One day I am gonna make it to Angels.  Its just when I am in Michigan it always seems harder to stray too far from Detroit as the only reason I go there is to see family. 

Brad

There was one other public I forgot that could entice me as a destination trip - Pasatiempo.  The redo looks intriguing.  Of course its more than a $100, but what can you do. 

Ciao

[RJ_Daley]

I just caught up with this thread today.  From what I can tell, the course I think flew under all your radars is Bayside in Ogallala.  Yeah, thre are 3 clinker holes IMHO, but I'd pay the modest price there just to play the other 15!!!

[Jason Topp]

Cliff:

Red Tail no doubt should be applauded -- but I wonder if you have ever played Shaker Hills in Harvard, MA and your opinion on that Brian Silva layout.

Matt:

It has been several years but I recall really enjoying Shaker Hills.

[Matt_Ward]

Since people have mentioned New England public options there are a few courses in and around the general Boston area that are quite good and rather inexpensive. I mentioned Shaker Hills as one clear option. Silva did a fine job on this rolling piece of property -- there's enough width to accomodate most players but it's not simply bombs away from the tee. A very good competitor to the likes of Red Tail.

Candidly, one must also mention the 36-hole complex in Stow, MA w Stow Acres. The layout did host the USGA Pub Links a few years back -- the North is quite a layout -- one can make a very easy case that the 9th on the North -- at 478 yards -- is one of the top long par-4's among all public courses in the New England area.

RJ Daley:

I really liked Bayside and have opined previously that the downside of the course has been overblown by its critics. However, the one key layout that separates itself on the public side and within the fee structure outlined is Wild Horse.

RJ, I really do like the back nine at Bayside -- there are a number of unique holes -- the par-3 17th has got to be one of the most unique short par-3's I've ever played -- the green there rivals anything one can find at Sand Hills or any other course for that matter.

[Ron Farris]

Matt,
I played Red Rock today.  The rate after Oct. 1 is $49 for all day with a cart.  You can expect less than firm and fast at this time of year as the Supt., Rick Witt gets the place wet for the winter - which could happen any minute or it could be January before any snow.  Greens are as fast as the day you played a couple of years ago.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

No doubt actions are taken as the season winds down -- but it astounds me how Red Rock flies that low on the radar screen when compared to the gushing of other northern plains courses takes place -- most notably Links of North at Red Mike and Bully Pulpit. Red Rock, IMHO, is the better choice and the margin is more than just by a nose in either situation.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, catch me on the right day, and I might say that the front 9 at Bayside is as good or better than either 9 at Wild Horse.  It is the back side that has 3 or 4 clinker holes, 11,13,15, some say 18.  12,14,16,17 are terrific.

[Matt_Ward]

RJ:

I hear what you say -- but the long par-5 11th is meant to psyche players out with the way it falls off on both sides. I don't see anything wrong with that concept -- it's simply the reverse of containment mounding.

Yes, the hole does provoke strong feelings and if people play it from the max at 650+ yards they need to bring some healthy game with them to handle the demands presented. Played from the whites the hole is only 555 yards but there's enough width but not so much width as to tolerate indifferent play.

Although I have not played it -- the photos I have seen of one of the par-5's at Cape Kidnappers seems to use the same technique in which dropoffs to either side occur. Rj I also like the aspect that players can tackle the challenge in trying to cut the corner of the 10th depending upon wind directions and their overall taste for adventure.

You'll have to explain to me why you see it as a clinker.

Ditto your take on the 13th and 15th holes. I think we have had discussion on the 15th hole previously. There's enough room for players to get home in three shots -- but they each need to be placed in the right spot. Strong players can even get there in two blows with a big time gamble drive over the corner. No doubt the approach from the fairway if it's more than 150 yards is not easy but why should it be? I absolutely adore the solitary front bunker. Again, you comments are most welcome.

In regards to the 18th -- I am not a fan of the forcd lay-up type hole but in this situation it works quite well. There's more room to the right than many might think but like I said I have so-so feelings when holes mandate that players must club down or be forcd to face the consequences.

RJ, you've got me thinking that Bayside should be included on the list for a whole host of reasons. I'd certainly include it on any honorable mention list even with the drawbacks that you and some others likely have with it.

P.S. I would urge all people who want to see the 17th green at Bayside to check out the photo posted on their Website. It is one of the best I've seen for a hole that plays to a max of 147 yards. I only wish David M would see this since he often asks me about quality short holes I have played. The 17th at Bayside is a gem of a hole and it never could be boring in any way whatsoever.

[Brad Fleischer]

[
Brad

There was one other public I forgot that could entice me as a destination trip - Pasatiempo.  The redo looks intriguing.  Of course its more than a $100, but what can you do. 

Ciao
[/quote]

Sean,

You could def go to pasatiempo and also get a couple of other courses in to. I actually received gift cards for Pebble and still have not used them . I figured when I was out there I would also hit up Pasatiempo.

Did you remember the other Canadian course ?

Brad

[Matt_Ward]

Guys, not for nothing -- but the thread centers around courses under $100 during peak times. Quite frankly, there are really few top tier public courses in California that can make such a claim for national status.

I don't discounts can and do happen but such discounts generally don't occur or are accepted during peak playing times.

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