[Lester George]

Mike,

I'll bet he never gets it done, and if he does you'll be glad you had nothing to do with it.

People who have no honor have no success.

Lester

[Joe Hancock]

Maybe this explains the morning I came out of the house to find all the "Ford" names and logo's removed from my chartreuse Pinto........

Joe

[Allan Long]

Didn't something to this effect happen at the Legends (Parkland) course in Myrtle Beach?

[Tom_Doak]

Allan:

At The Legends, the developer and I agreed to part ways DURING the construction of the course, and since I wasn't going to have control of the finished product I asked that my name not be used ... which he was happy to oblige.    That's different than asking for your name to be removed from a course you completed.

As noted, a couple of designers have clauses where they can remove their names, although in practice it's hard to do so.  For the rest of us, just writing a clause like that into our contracts would take a great deal of chutzpah.  If you were developing a course, would you sign a deal with an architect who reserved the right to remove his name?

[Cliff Hamm]

Tom it is often discussed here that x course is no longer a Tillinghast, Ross, etc. because of changes made over the years.  Out of curiosity, if changes were made to one of your courses so you felt it was no longer a 'Doak', would you feel it correct to request that your name be removed?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom D.,

Feel free NOT to answer this, if you feel it's inappropriate. But, I'm curious about why you weren't going to have control of the finished product at The Legends?

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:  I meant I wouldn't have control of the finished product since I was quitting the job.  My actual decision to leave the job was disagreement with the owner about the nature of the design ... I was trying to build something pretty subtle, and he wanted to exaggerate the features.

Cliff:  I would not remove my name from any of the courses I've built so far ... fortunately none of them have been changed much architecturally, though a couple of them are poorly looked after.  Even if they were changed, I think you would just note who changed what ... unless the routing is changed, it's still basically my design.  But, I wouldn't say that for The Legends, since the whole place was flat to start so the routing didn't make much difference. 

[Cliff Hamm]

Thanks Tom...I guess that's the case with courses such as Baltusrol which is on occassion listed Tillinghast/RT Jones/Rees Jones....That seems to make the most sense. 

There's really no specific answer but what is the point at which someone other than the original designer should be listed?  In Baltusrol's case what i just stated would make sense.  Gil Hanse needs to be listed at TPC Boston.  What about the Country Club.  Rees Jones certainly made changes.  Should he be added?

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff:  I meant I wouldn't have control of the finished product since I was quitting the job.  My actual decision to leave the job was disagreement with the owner about the nature of the design ... I was trying to build something pretty subtle, and he wanted to exaggerate the features.

Cliff:  I would not remove my name from any of the courses I've built so far ... fortunately none of them have been changed much architecturally, though a couple of them are poorly looked after.  Even if they were changed, I think you would just note who changed what ... unless the routing is changed, it's still basically my design.  But, I wouldn't say that for The Legends, since the whole place was flat to start so the routing didn't make much difference. 

Tom D,

Do you ever lie awake at night over what has happened at Apache Strongehold with the conditions going/gone to shit?   

I guess better that, than having them move dirt around.  At least the course could be reseeded if the entire thing went to hell in a hand basket.  As I recall at least one other very prominent course had some big troubles with conditioning for several years. 

[Michael Mimran]

I played Mansion Ridge a couple of weeks ago.  While it wasn't in perfect condition, it was certainly playable and I don't feel it affected my overall experience at all....  The staff and the condos on the third fairway are far more offensive than the conditions of the course.

[C. Squier]

What does the condition of the course have to do with it?  I doubt many golfers blame an architect because course conditioning isn't up to their standards.....haven't seen many GCA's riding a mower lately. 

I'd think GCA's would be more concerned with course management / grounds committee tinkering with the actual architectural features of a course. 

[Greg Tallman]

Allan:

At The Legends, the developer and I agreed to part ways DURING the construction of the course, and since I wasn't going to have control of the finished product I asked that my name not be used ... which he was happy to oblige.    That's different than asking for your name to be removed from a course you completed.

Tom, you were dealing with a tough crew there. Successful but tough.

[Steve Hyden]

An attorney once told me that Tom Fazio unsuccessfully tried to disassociate his name from one of his early efforts (Florida ~ 1987) because the developer messed with his design to create more golf course lots.  As he gained fame, he changed his contract to allow for such a possibility.  To this date the scorecard boasts of his involvement.

[Brian_Ewen]

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/11/09/jack-nicklaus-in-feud-with-gleneagles-over-changes-to-course-he-designed-78057-20880896/

Jack Nicklaus in feud with Gleneagles over changes to course he designed
Nov 9 2008 By Charles Lavery

GOLFING great Jack Nicklaus is feuding with Gleneagles after they changed the design of one of his courses.

The Golden Bear is so upset at alterations to the PGA Centenary Course - which will host the 2014 RyderCup - he has taken it off his own website.

And he has demanded the club alter the description of the course on their site.

Bosses at the five-star hotel complex in Perthshire have been forced to change the description of the course on the net and alter their advertising as a result of the fallout with the sporting legend.

Gleneagles previously described the course as being "designed by Jack Nicklaus" but now refer to it as having been "created by" the 18-time major winner.

Nicklaus, recognised as one of the greatest ever golfers and course architects, designed the Centenary Course for its opening in 1993.

The American called the course "the finest parcel of land in the world I have ever been given to work with".

A source close to the star said: "Jack designed the course but a lot of the holes have been changed since, sometimes more than once.

"It's not the one he designed originally and that's why he has removed it from his website."

A spokeswoman for Gleneagles - home to another two championship-standard courses - said: "Jack Nicklaus designed the course for us in the early 90s.

"In the last few years and in the build up to being the hosts for the Ryder Cup, we have had another designer tweak a few holes.

"We do say he created the course and we have an ongoing relationship with the Jack Nicklaus organisation."

It is understood the Centenary Course will be altered again in time for the Ryder Cup.

Nicklaus Design executive vicepresident Tim Kenny said: "We continue to communicate with representatives at Gleneagles to reach a mutually agreed resolution and the conversations have been and continue to be very amicable.

"Jack does not have any specific design issue with any part of the current golf course.

"What is at issue is that modifications have been made over the years without our knowledge or input.

"Because this is a Jack Nicklaus Signature Golf Course - one that he has great sentimental attachment to, as well as being a course that represents historical significance in his design legacy - it is important that the integrity of the original design strategy be respected.

"If it has been modified in a way that differs from Jack's original design, then it would not be fair to the consumer to continue to position the design as a Nicklaus Signature Golf Course. That is the matter under discussion."

The 18th hole needs to be altered because the Ryder Cup will take place in September and players could be playing directly into a low sun as they approach the clubhouse.

It is also understood that the hole may not even be the 18th by the time of the tournament, as the order of holes could be shuffled.

The website Nicklaus.com refers to "Jack's legendary achievements", including 18 major championships and course designs. It details more than 300 Nicklaus designed courses around the world.

But its listing for Gleneagles' PGA Centenary Course offers a link to the hotel website but "no additional information".

Nicklaus is widely regarded as the greatest professional golfer of all time.

Together with fellow American Arnold Palmer and South African Gary Player, known as the "Big Three", he is credited with turning golf into the major spectator sport it has become.

SUNDAY EMAIL

c.lavery@sundaymail.co.uk

[Anthony Gray]

  My home course The Champions Club formerly Hampton Creek says It was built by Jay Moorish but he does not list it on his web site. Nobody at the course can tell me why.


              Anthony

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