Qualities of a good drivable par-4

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jeff,

I do recall Tom Gray telling us he's driven that little green there, at Franklin Hills' 14th. Man... that's an amazing shot. How big's that green, atop that volcano-like knob? About 1,200 sq. ft., I think.

It's a type of shot that's difficult to comprehend. But, it's apparently possible.

The difference between Franklin Hill's 14th and this hole at Valhalla is the latter presents "death" around the green (water). To my way of thinking, this factor (should) discourage more players from trying to drive the ball onto the putting surface. Conversely, missing the green at a hole like FH's 14th simply leaves a challenging pitch to a tiny green, played from grass. There's no serious penalty.   

I prefer a short par-4 that really encourages players to "go for it", and where recovery play is complicated by contour and slope, and perhaps a couple bunkers. Water doesn't help this cause.

[Mike_Cirba]

Something that isn't as it appears.

[Philippe Binette]

The second shot, if you lay up, should not be easy... That could encourage agressive play of the tee.

Talking to Tom Lehman, he mentionned that on the 10th at Riviera, if the pin is back right, the second shot is so hard if you lay up that he'll always go for it...
He said if he hits the front right bunker, the shot is hard, but just as hard as the 80 yard pitch.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting point, Penguin (and Lehman)...

Making the approach after laying up off the tee as difficult as any other shot. This will certainly encourage more aggressive driving at this type of hole.

I guess this is one reason why the 10th at Riviera is the "ideal" potentially driveable par-4.

[Carl Rogers]

To continue and be a bit arguementative, would the 10th hole at the Belfry be viewed as an inferior drivable par 4?  A miss short or left means water hazard and the lay up shot out in the fairway is pretty dull.

[Bill_McBride]

Tim,

You noted, "I really don't see anyone going for the 13th green at Valhalla.  The target is tiny and surrounded by water; the risk outweighs the reward big-time, I'd think..."

It is the idea that the hole will be played from the 290-yard range tot tempt guys to try driving it that inspired this thread.

I'm sorry, but anyone trying to drive the hole will have to fly it to the putting surface and hold it... That they think anyone would actually attempt this is more ludicrous than someone actually trying to...

Too bad Tiger's laid up!  Although I'll bet Phil will give it a go if his fourball partner is in play.

[Kalen Braley]

While I agree in concept that the entrance should be narrow, it should also be doable. I've seen a handful of short 4's where the "narrow" area is only 5 yards wide and it only gives you access to one side of the green.  I'm not seeing how trying to hit that from 290 yards is tempting.

[Jeff_Mingay]

While I agree in concept that the entrance should be narrow, it should also be doable. I've seen more a handful of short 4's where the "narrow" area is only 5 yards wide and it only gives you access to one side of the green.  I'm not seeing how trying to hit that from 290 yards is tempting.

Kalen,

This is my point exactly. Also reminds me of a great quote from Bobby Jones: 

"... there should be presented to each golfer an interesting problem that will test him without being so impossibly difficult that he will have little chance for success. There must be something to do, but that something must always be within the realm of reasonable accomplishment."

Of course, understanding of exactly what Mr. Jones means -- like all things relative to golf course design -- is very subjective!

[Shane Wright]

I agree with Phillippe - second shot has to be difficult....to make you think about the alternative - going for it.

This is why I think the Bandon Trails/Sand Hills holes are good because if you lay up, you are going to have a very difficult wedge shot and it will mostly be off of a very "skinny" lie which many are not comfortable with. 

How about 9/10 at the Old Course - St. Andrew's.....driver brings bunkers into play, and laying up allows for a very fun pitch and run shot. 

[Wade Whitehead]

Besides its layout and/or design, should the hole's placement in the routing be a concern?

Compare the impact of a driveable 17th on a match with what a driveable 3rd (for example) might produce...there's a significant difference, I think, even if the holes themselves are identical.

WW

[Shane Wright]

I think it somewhat depends on what your goals for the course are - do you have a minimalist "take what the land gives you" approach, or something else -

Besides its layout and/or design, should the hole's placement in the routing be a concern?

Compare the impact of a driveable 17th on a match with what a driveable 3rd (for example) might produce...there's a significant difference, I think, even if the holes themselves are identical.

WW

[Matthew Hunt]

A narrow entrance to the green.

All the time? What is wrong with fairway width?

I nice bit of intresting movement before the green is always welcomed by me.

[Jason Pyle]

Anthony:  What I am referring to by that is that bunting a hybrid and then smoothing a gap wedge shouldn't be all that's required to get a par on a good short drivable Par-4.  I think the temptation to go for it should be great, but if you are one of those golfers (i am not) that isn't easily tempted you shouldn't just get a pass.  Tempt the aggressive but make the conservative work for it also. 

[JMorgan]

Drivable from all tees
Lay up options visible from tees
No OOB near green
Grass bunkers in equal or greater quantities to sand near green
Long is qualitatively different than short
Left or right is qualitatively different than long or short

[Kevin Pallier]

Really then, what qualities should a par-4 have that make it be good when at a driveable distance?

One quality at a time only....

Temptation

I concur...

I also like those with slightly offset greens that require a "shaped" shot into them