[JWinick]

In real estate, location is the most valued attribute.   When evaluating a golf course, what role should location play? 

Recently, Jonathan commented on Lost Dunes, stating "no course with a superhighway cutting through it is an 8.  Transplant LD in a serene setting and you have an argument"

On the one hand, a location immediately surrounding an interstate is positive in allowing players to conveniently access the club.   But, if its so noisy, is detracts from the overall ambience.   Should a remote location like the Bandon Dunes complex lose points for remoteness?  Donald Trump recently stated that Bandon is "in a wasteland far away from civilization."

What do you prefer: convenient access or remote tranquility? Convenient access means more golf for you, but less of an escape.   Remote tranquility is an escape, but how often could you get to a Ballyneal or a Sand Hills?

[Sean_A]

JW

A location is always inconvenient for the vast majority of golfers.  The question should be does the location enhance the enjoyability of the visit.  If a motorway is ripping through the middle of a course, it can't be good in terms of noise or routing (green to tee walks).  IMO, I would knock the course down for this, but that has nothing to do with the archie and everything to do with me trying to fully enjoy the day. 

Ciao

[JWinick]

Sean:

"Always inconvenient?"  Doesn't convenience play some role in deciding where to play or join?   For the record, I commute 45 minutes each way every time I play my club and do it with a smile on my face each time.   

If you're going to praise a site for its tranquility, don't you need to consider its inconvenience? 

JW

A location is always inconvenient for the vast majority of golfers.  The question should be does the location enhance the enjoyability of the visit.  If a motorway is ripping through the middle of a course, it can't be good in terms of noise or routing (green to tee walks).  IMO, I would knock the course down for this, but that has nothing to do with the archie and everything to do with me trying to fully enjoy the day. 

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Sean:

"Always inconvenient?"  Doesn't convenience play some role in deciding where to play or join?   For the record, I commute 45 minutes each way every time I play my club and do it with a smile on my face each time.   

If you're going to praise a site for its tranquility, don't you need to consider its inconvenience? 

JW

A location is always inconvenient for the vast majority of golfers.  The question should be does the location enhance the enjoyability of the visit.  If a motorway is ripping through the middle of a course, it can't be good in terms of noise or routing (green to tee walks).  IMO, I would knock the course down for this, but that has nothing to do with the archie and everything to do with me trying to fully enjoy the day. 

Ciao

45 minutes ain't nothing.  I commute 1.5 hours!

My point is, convenience is a relative rather than an absolute issue.  Only so many people live within reasonable commuting distance to any course so I don't believe a course should be partly judged based on that.  Now if youa re talking membership issues, that is a different kettle of fish.  There are lots of reasons why someone may not want to join the club with the best course in the area - convenience being one of them. 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

What do you prefer: convenient access or remote tranquility? Convenient access means more golf for you, but less of an escape. 

Can I pretend that I am not married when I answer this question! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

access and convenience statistically drives about 99% of rounds, which is what makes those remote tranquil courses so special.  Generally speaking, both golf course owners and golfers prefer convenience, except for a few times a year, when they appreciate the beauty that a truly remote golf course has to offer.

[John Kavanaugh]

I find the club where I play that is an hour and 15 minutes from home to be perfect.  I have the option of either leaving the house around 6 am for the first tee time of the day or spending the night 3 rivers away from home.  It helps to have been married 26 years and being a better texter than a lover, so my wife would just as soon I find the safety of a hotel room than spend an extra two and one half hours on our dangerously underfunded road system.  It also doesn't hurt with $4 gas that it is cheaper to get a room than drive home.  The ole, I can't afford to come home is truly a beaut.

[JWinick]

The most convenient golf course is right outside your house in a golf course community.  Yet, this website generally looks down upon houses on a golf course.   

I prefer some escape, yet a long escape may not be good for your game because you rarely practice.   I recognize there is a trade-off.   Most of us on this site are golf geeks who think nothing of commuting to play a great golf course.  Certainly, we're in the minority.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you have a family I would think golfing outside your house would be reason enough to not golf at all.

[George Pazin]

I've always thought that the convenience of such gems as TOC, Dornoch and Prestwick to their local populations looked to be one of the coolest things about them.

But then again, I'm a little hard of hearing, so background noise is usually nonexistent for me.

I've always kind of suspected that the desirability of remoteness belies a certain amount of latent elitism...

[JWinick]

George,

Elitism might be part of it, but it also reflects the golfer's desire to leave their busy, chaotic, world and unwind on the golf course.   Certainly, it takes much more effort to unwind at Sand Hills than a club 20 minutes from downtown. 

I think certain clubs like Beverly, for example, lose points because of the fact that they are in a noisy neighborhood.   I love Beverly and I think the chaos surrounding it is a good contrast to serenity inside.   The architect should not be penalized for designing a golf course on a challenging urban site.  In fact, it takes more skill than finding the best 18 holes out of 100 potential holes in the middle of nowhere, Nebraska.

I've always thought that the convenience of such gems as TOC, Dornoch and Prestwick to their local populations looked to be one of the coolest things about them.

But then again, I'm a little hard of hearing, so background noise is usually nonexistent for me.

I've always kind of suspected that the desirability of remoteness belies a certain amount of latent elitism...

[Tom_Doak]

The truth is that many people have these sorts of biases and there is nothing to stop them from including their biases in a rating.  However, to institutionalize such biases is silly.  At least there are a few people who don't have a freaking checklist of no-no's and who can see the whole picture.

[JWinick]

Will all due respect to Jonathan, his automatic downgrade of Lost Dunes because of the highway is unfair.   I will see for myself in two weeks, but I can't imagine a highway ruining my golf experience.   

Medinah #3, for example, has its issues, but how does one account for its proximity to O'Hare?  On some days, you are in the middle of the landing pattern.   One hole runs along a noisy street.  Someone who plays Medinah on a day of quiet might rate the course significantly different than someone playing it on a noisy day. 

On the other hand, remote locations probably don't get many raters.   But, the raters who visit are probably inclined to be biased in favor of the site.   Anyone who travels 10 hours to visit a course does not want to call the trip a failure since its against human nature.

The truth is that many people have these sorts of biases and there is nothing to stop them from including their biases in a rating.  However, to institutionalize such biases is silly.  At least there are a few people who don't have a freaking checklist of no-no's and who can see the whole picture.

[John Kavanaugh]

On the other hand, remote locations probably don't get many raters.   

Maybe on your planet.

[JWinick]

John:

It's just common sense.  If a place is convenient, more people can visit it.   Compare a Chicago or St. Louis course to say Canyata.  How many people are going to trek down to the Terre Haute burbs and visit the course?

On the other hand, remote locations probably don't get many raters.   

Maybe on your planet.

[Jeff_Brauer]

On the other hand, remote locations probably don't get many raters.   

Maybe on your planet.

JK,

Getting raters to a remote location is a problem for all but the most hyped resorts/new courses.  I know that from speaking to guys like Ron Whitten and Brad Klein.  Even some of the raters here note that Brad has to send out lists of courses that haven't been visited and ones that have been overvisited.

As a gca, having a pretty good course like the Quarry in a place no one is likely to go to on the way to somewhere else is a problem for many courses that deserve some recognition. 

[Adam Clayman]

I can see positives for both. Quiet serenity is special but so is the juxtaposition of an urban setting. I suppose its like the dichotomy of preferring natural architecture and angular.

[CJ Carder]

What about clubs that are "convenient" (and I use that term on a relative basis) but have the ability to make it seem tranquil and remote?

Of places I've been, I can only really think of 4 off the top of my head that would fit into this category for sure:

- Augusta
- Muirfield
- RTJ
- my home course, Golden Horseshoe

I can think of some other places that might fit, but one aspect would be up for discussion:

- Oakland Hills
- Spyglass
- Turnberry

At least with those 3 I felt like I was removed from everything, even though I know OH and Spyglass have some houses on them and Turnberry is debatable as to its "convenience."

[John Kavanaugh]

JK,

Getting raters to a remote location is a problem for all but the most hyped resorts/new courses. 

Hype has very little to do with it compared to quality.  Canyata is a perfect example - If a roach finds an empty kitchen he will not leave a scent trail for his friends.

[JWinick]

Tom Fazio seems to do a pretty good job at creating a remote tranquil environment in an urban setting.  Shadow Creek is a great example.   Minutes from the strip, but you think you're in North Carolina. 

Of course, Shadow Creek is certainly contrived, but it's probably difficult to create such an environment without it being such.

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