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Brendan Dolan

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Notre Dame or Michigan?
« on: September 13, 2008, 07:21:01 PM »
I just finished watching the ND Michigan game, and it got me thinking about which university has a better golf course.  Both have been discussed a bit in the past but never compared.  I have played the Warren Golf Course several times and have walked the Michigan golf course on two occasions.  The Warren in my opinion is just a treat to play with some really good green complexes by Coore and Crenshaw.  On the other hand the Michigan GC also looked like a great classic test of golf and had a lot of neat elements. 
So for those who have played both which school has a better golf course, Michigan or Notre Dame?
Which one has more interesting green complexes? 
Is one course more interesting off the tee then the other?
What are your favorite holes?
Notre Dame Stadium or the Big House?

Brendan 


Andy Troeger

Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2008, 08:38:12 PM »
Notre Dame of course!

Ok...I haven't played Michigan, but as an ND alum and former Warren employee I have to say that and obviously wouldn't change my mind under any circumstances  ;D

I can say I think ND has a better course IMO than Purdue, Ohio State, or New Mexico. UNM is the next best to me.

John Burzynski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2008, 08:44:24 PM »
I haven't played UM's course either...but as a South Bend resident and Coore and Crenshaw fan, well, you can guess where my allegiances lie on this one.

Brent Carlson

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2008, 09:12:08 PM »
Michigan's is a MacKenzie over fantastic terrain.  There is really no comparison.

Deucie Bies

Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2008, 09:34:45 PM »
What about Radrick Farms, the Michigan alumni course which is one of Pete Dye's first courses?  The par 5s are short, but overall it is a very fun layout to play.  I think it is much better than the MacKenzie course.

Andy Troeger

Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2008, 10:02:42 PM »
Haven't there been threads about significant alteration of the MacKenzie course from his original design? Or am I confusing that with OSU?

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2008, 10:15:54 PM »
Yale beats them both.

JLahrman

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2008, 10:45:37 PM »
Haven't there been threads about significant alteration of the MacKenzie course from his original design? Or am I confusing that with OSU?

Don't know about UM but OSU has certainly undertaken some alterations...

Andy Troeger

Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2008, 11:04:20 PM »
Haven't there been threads about significant alteration of the MacKenzie course from his original design? Or am I confusing that with OSU?

Don't know about UM but OSU has certainly undertaken some alterations...

I went back through the archives and it appears Arthur Hills did a renovation of the UM course, late 80's or early 90's. It appeared from the comments that the bunkers are the aspect most different from the MacKenzie original.

Ari Techner

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2008, 11:14:22 PM »
UM in a blowout. 

Mike Boehm

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2008, 11:46:42 PM »
Grew up a Michigan fan - went to ND for Grad School (and have pulled for ND ever since).  I've got to give the nod to UM on the golf course though.  Warren is a lot of fun to play, and a great value for the students, but the greens at UM make it the clear winner to me.

Sean_A

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2008, 03:00:49 AM »
I would like to see the ND course, it sounds and looked (in photos) to be quite good.  I think Doak was a bit miserly giving UofM a 5.  For me, it is a smidgen below a 1*.  Dealing with some trees and some bunker work would push UofM into star territority and I do think they are slowing doing work on the bunkers.  I do like UofM and would highly recommend a game there.  I was very impressed with the greens the last time out, but there is something lacking to the final 3 holes, which the stretch of 2-6 clearly has.  They aren't bad holes, but there isn't much flair to them and I think this is not the best final impression.   

One thing is for sure, the course has to be better than the football team - heavy sigh.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 01:45:21 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

PCCraig

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2008, 10:28:52 PM »
While I liked the ND Warren Course...I loved the UM design. The collection of "half par" holes on the front nine are awesome. I do agree though that the last 3 are a let down.

That being said I didn't go nor root for either ND or UM!  ;D
H.P.S.

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2008, 03:27:45 AM »
I would love to get out and see the ND course.  U of M is a good course that could be better if the renovation work was more thought out and the conditions dried up a bit.  The front nine is fantastic, and the tail end of the back leaves something to be desired.

Michigan Stadium by far.  Notre Dame Stadium is a Michigan Stadium wannabe, literally.  The ND AD saw a game at Michigan, went back to Indiana, and said, "I want a stadium like that."  Also, the renovations at the Big House are very impressive while keeping in the spirit of the stadium and athletic campus.  Great looking work so far.

That game was awful.  7 fumbles, 6 turnovers, but at least McGuffie looked really good.  Red Wings training camp starts this weekend, thank the Lord.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2008, 10:29:54 AM »
ND has the better course. Neither have much more than average teams or head coaches.

Chuck Brown

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Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2008, 11:56:17 AM »
I'm a Michigan guy, and irretrievably prejudiced as a result.  I also happen to be a huge fan of C & C.

When Tom Doak gave the U-M course a 5 in his Confidential Guide, the U-M course was in a state of moderate disrepair.  It had hosted a couple of Michigan Opens, but it had suffered from three big things:  1) Badly irresponsible tree-planting, 2) Terrible maintenance of its Mackenzie/Maxwell bunkers and 3) Generally poor maintenance of its green surfaces.

The Arthur Hills work that was undertaken a couple of years after The Confidential Guide was published was much needed, and was generally regarded as a 'restoration,' and not a redesign.  Hills cut down hundreds of trees, as he should have.  (They could cut down a hundred more.)  Hills also gave primary attention to the bunkers, which now look 100% better and much more Mackenzie-like than ever.  As someone else has noted here at GCA, the spending ratio for the multi-million dollar restoration program was 50% improvement and 50% maintenance.  The greens are much better surfaces now than when Tom Doak gave it a 5.  And, almost nothing was done with respect to any re-shaping of the unmistakable Mackenzie green complexes.

As a real, true Alister Mackenzie/Perry Maxwell signature piece, the U-M course is a treasure for any student of architecture and it is now a very credible test and an attractive place to play.

The Ohio State University Scarlet Course was designed by Mackenzie within a year or two of the U-M course.  The Nicklaus design work there (undertaken gratis by Jack) was by all accounts more of a redesign.  Jack changed some angles, wholly redid many bunkers, and consciously tried to make the course more of a NCAA and Nationwide Tour challenge than anything undertaken at Michigan.  What is left of the Scarlet Course is a very good golf course, but indisputably a "less Mackenzie" design.  Nicklaus famously referred to it as "Nickenzie."

The Warren Course in South Bend is built on a more modest parcel of real estate, and is a fairly unambitious effort on the part of C & C.  My feeling is that the great calling card of C & C is to first do no harm to the land that they are given.  They excel at that task.  And they have created a very good golf course for Notre Dame.  But it is one of the most unremarkable of the C & C designs that I can think of, and it is a very cautious, very conventional design.  "Solid and unmemorable" is how I'd refer to it.

Someone mentioned the Pete Dye-designed Radrick Farms Golf Club in Ann Arbor.  It is the faculty and alumni golf club (University-owned, but basically operated as a private club) laid in the late 1960's as one of Pete Dye's earliest course designs.  Set on the old estate of the family that donated the Matthei Botanical Gardens on the far eastern outskirts of Ann Arbor, it is a very beatiful setting and a design that Dye himself happily went back to about 20 years later and revised.  I think it is a very good but not a classic design.  I find it interesting because it was a remarkably good piece of property (very, very large acerage) and Dye did not have to resort to too many of his later-signature touches.  You won't see many railroad ties, and thankfully few severe greenside slopes.  There have been one or two USGA championships contested there (boys' and girls' Juniors, I think) and it is a pleasant place to play in the fall, with beautiful hardwoods all around.

Incidentally, the University of Michigan Golf Course was the scene of the first-ever USGA Junior, in the late 1940's, and a 17 year-old from San Francisco named Ken Venturi played in the final match, finishing as the runner-up.

John Burzynski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2008, 01:59:19 PM »
I do know that one of the limiting factors with the ND course when it was built is that it has a cold water trout stream flowing through it (Juday Creek), and this stream is home to a native species of brown or brook trout.  The desire to keep this habitat undisturbed probably played into the courses' design, as did the somewhat landlocked and limited acreage for the course (the course is bordered by the Indiana Toll Road on the north, a major county north sout road onthe east, and two major roads on the south and west).  Truly it was probably the only parcel of land available in large enough quantity adjacent to campus.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2008, 02:22:37 PM »
As Charlie Weis said "To hell with Michigan!"
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2008, 02:46:59 PM »
Yale beats them both.

Not only does Yale beat them both, but so do Williams College and Mount Holyoke College.

http://www.taconicgolf.com/

http://www.orchardsgolf.com/
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jay Flemma

Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 05:09:14 PM »
whoa...I can't stand taconic.  it bored me to tears when I played it year in and year out when I was at Trinity and we had to play tournaments at williams.  If I never see Taconic again, it'll be too soon.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 05:11:44 PM by Jay Flemma »

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 06:03:26 PM »
As Charlie Weis said "To hell with Michigan!"
I thought Charlie Weis said, "Aaaaarrrrgghhhh!  My knee!"

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2008, 06:21:28 PM »
I visited Ann Arbor for the home opener, a dreadful defeat to Utah.    I was able to see the golf course, since it is used for parking during home games.  Fortunately, they only park on the rough, so the course looked like it was in good condition.   

From what I remember as a student, it's a lot of fun to play with some great risk-reward holes. 

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2008, 01:05:35 AM »
In their current forms, ND by a nose.  If the UM course got the alterations Sean and I noted in our round this spring it would pass ND tut suit.  Comparing the two courses is like comparing an average woman with great make-up, apparel etc...(ND) with a beautiful gal who has let herself go or seen only pre make up in the morning.(UM)  The Michigan course has better land and, as a result, more potential.  This is not to discount the Warren course, but as we all know, the better the landforms, the better the golf!
Jim Thompson

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2008, 12:45:04 PM »
As Charlie Weis said "To hell with Michigan!"
I thought Charlie Weis said, "Aaaaarrrrgghhhh!  My knee!"

"Aaaaarrrrgghhhh!"  No that was the Michigan kick returner :o
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Notre Dame or Michigan?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2008, 05:20:22 PM »
Just a heads up.  As part of a cultural exchange I will be attending the Notre Dame / Stanford game on a few weeks.  Frankly, I hope they both lose.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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