[Tim Bert]

Re: Creeping bent from the greens

Is the issue that it is impossible to do anything about it other than blow it up and start over like poa in greens or is there some measure that can be taken to reign it back in periodically?

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, In Wh's case the added expense was a known fact, but, justified because of how integral they were to the design intent. Once the average Joe started whining about not being able to hold greens, they were forced to soften and just allow the bent to creep. I can't speak for Tom's example, but I suspect with careful maintenance practices, the creeping can be held off. I've heard of placing some kind of metal barrier at the greens edges, under the surface, but I'm not sure if that's a reasonable cure.

[Scott Szabo]

Scott, They can play differently intra-day, let alone throughout the year. It's a function of moisture content, wind, heat, as well as the daily maintenance practices.

Adam,  can't that be said for all courses?  Or is it more pronounced with fescue surfaces?

[John Kirk]

Creeping bentgrass that creeps into longer grass areas makes for difficult and somewhat unenjoyable recoveries from the rough.

I think Kingsley's grassing scheme works pretty well.  One type of fairway grass that I find very difficult to putt on is dwarf bluegrass.

[Adam Clayman]

Scott. I think it can be true of all greens. It just might be avoidable with meticulous practices that many golfers probably think is the way things should be.

[Bill_McBride]

As somebody who's going to play around 45 rounds at Ballyneal this year

That is crazy.  I recall a conversation last year when you weren't sure you were going to get to spend enough time out there.  Problem solved.  I guess the full week really helped.

Tim, those 45 rounds only take that crew about ten days if the weather's okay!

[Tim Nugent]

I can answer this one.

I believe that the Bandon Dunes grassing scheme has evolved.  The first course, Bandon Dunes, augmented the fescue with about 8% colonial bent.  At Pacific Dunes, the bent percentage was reduced to about 4%.  Bandon rails and Old Macdonald are 100% fescue.

Please correct if wrong.  Thanks.

A technical clarification for the laymen out there. Bent seed is much much smaller in size than fescue and seed blend percentages are given as percentage BY WEIGHT.- not seed count.  So if I remember my stuff, 10% Colonial Bent and 90% fine fescue will generally yield about a 50/50 seed count or half the seed in the mix will be bent and half fescue.  So 8/92 is about 45/55 and 4/96 would be 22/78 but mostl likely the seed spec'd yielded 50/50  and 25/75.

[Jim Colton]

If you want to see Ballyneal's greens (and the rest of the course) from a few thousand feet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDR_NSeqA7w

[Ben Sims]

If you want to see Ballyneal's greens (and the rest of the course) from a few thousand feet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDR_NSeqA7w

No fair.  This is my field of expertise.  Though he is going quite  a bit slower than I can.  Probably makes for better pics.   

Ballyneal and Wolf Point are the only two courses that I can imagine seeing contour from 1000 AGL.  On Friday afternoon I got to fly over Wolf pretty low, and I could see some contour. 

[Thomas Patterson]

If you want to see Ballyneal's greens (and the rest of the course) from a few thousand feet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDR_NSeqA7w

Awesome!!  Very neat to see the course from this perspective, and I loved the "bunker looks bigger from up here" comment!  Thanks for sharing Jim.

Man..gotta get back out there soon!

[Dan_Lucas]

Tom

Someone pointed me to this thread. Normally our approaches are verticut several times per season. This year with the heat and humidity we've had to baby them a little. Don't mistake the inability to perform some maintenance with the failure of a program. It's almost aerifier time.

[George Freeman]

Tom

Someone pointed me to this thread. Normally our approaches are verticut several times per season. This year with the heat and humidity we've had to baby them a little. Don't mistake the inability to perform some maintenance with the failure of a program. It's almost aerifier time.

Dan,

Can you explain that more in layman's terms?

Much appreciated,

Geogre

[Tim Bert]

Tom

Someone pointed me to this thread. Normally our approaches are verticut several times per season. This year with the heat and humidity we've had to baby them a little. Don't mistake the inability to perform some maintenance with the failure of a program. It's almost aerifier time.

Dan - please don't aerify before September 6th!!  Will the course be firm and fast this weekend?  I heard that heavy rains earlier this summer had things playing softer. Is that still the case?

[Thomas Patterson]

I know that last year they aerated on the evening/morning of September 13/14th...I was worried as we were only there for about 26 hours (2 PM Sunday through 4 PM Monday).  I'm pretty sure the crew went right behind us when we went off #1 Sunday afternoon and punched at least the front 9 as they were all aerated when we played the front again after the first 18.  The next day, all 18 were done, but we didn't notice one bit of difference in putting from our first round to the last.  The small tines they used weren't noticeable at all in feel and speed. 

[Dan_Lucas]

George

I will start another thread with further explanation when I can.

Tim

We may solid tine a couple greens before you get here but it won't affect putting. Course has been playing well since the weather broke a month ago. Hopefully this is the last stretch of 90's of the season. It's going to cool down tomorrow, but chance of rain tonight through Saturday.

Thomas

Last year we aerified on Oct. 13th not Sept.

[Jim Colton]

I know that last year they aerated on the evening/morning of September 13/14th...I was worried as we were only there for about 26 hours (2 PM Sunday through 4 PM Monday).  I'm pretty sure the crew went right behind us when we went off #1 Sunday afternoon and punched at least the front 9 as they were all aerated when we played the front again after the first 18.  The next day, all 18 were done, but we didn't notice one bit of difference in putting from our first round to the last.  The small tines they used weren't noticeable at all in feel and speed. 

Tommy,

  Dan is talking about Kingsley, not Ballyneal.

[Thomas Patterson]

Sorry guys...hard to get Ballyneal off the brain sometimes! 

TJ Patterson

[Dan_Lucas]

George

Since this thread has tailed off (I didn't want to hijack it) I'll elaborate here.

Tom is talking about the difference between wall to wall fescue versus fescue fairways/bent greens. With bent/fescue the  approach/collar areas that receive the greens water and fertilizer are the hardest to maintain. The bent tends to creep out because the fescue loses it's competitive edge with the additional inputs. Poa also loves this program.

Good tough bent in the approaches still putts very well if you control the thatch. Thatchy bent putts nothing like fescue. It's very sticky and because the bent thatch is so much softer than fescue thatch the ball doesn't roll true through it. We remove thatch with aerifying and verticutting. Verticutting is a process of slicing grooves verticallly down through the grass blades into the thatch removing thatch. On greens and tees we do this 2-3 times per month. We like to do the approaches once a month but this process is very hard on the grass. You have to baby it with a little extra water for a few days afterward. The hotter it is the harder it is on the plant.

The one significant fungus dangerous to fescue is pythium. This disease must have hot (85+ daytime, 70+ nighttime), humid weather to be a danger. When the weather is like that, you really need to be careful with the water and any other stresses you put on the plant. Pythium is also one of the most expensive diseases to control chemically. I haven't checked but I wouldn't be surprised at $1000/acre. Maybe a transition zone super can help with that number? This is why fescue is not an option in hot, humid climates.

We decided to go with bent greens instead of fescue because we didn't think our prospective clientele was ready for that step in playability yet. We have been proven right in that here based on the response we get when the bent greens get really firm. Our membership started increasing much faster as we developed a small layer of thatch and the course softened slightly. Any new course will play much firmer for the first couple years until a thatch layer develops. The key is in controlling that thatch and the moisture.

When the weather is like it has been this summer you really have to back off on the aggressiveness and just get your turf through it alive until the weather cools.

[Greg Tallman]

A close up from 2 weeks ago...untouched photography:




Very difficult hole position...nearly impossible from above the hole.

Bart

Bart, thanks for reminding me.  Its not that easy from the back left bunker either!  Here are two more, one from in front...

...and another from behind.

Love wild greens but that seems a bit much. Surely the green is not as severe8gimmicky) as it looks in a photo? I would guess that would be the case.

[Scott Szabo]

A close up from 2 weeks ago...untouched photography:




Very difficult hole position...nearly impossible from above the hole.

Bart




Love wild greens but that seems a bit much. Surely the green is not as severe8gimmicky) as it looks in a photo? I would guess that would be the case.

I once saw a putt from above the hole (lower right portion of picture ) catch the ridge, take a turn left, and run all the way off the green, about 20 yards down the hill.  From that, it did seem a bit severe.  Although the golfer obviously could have aimed a bit more to the right

[Greg Tallman]

A close up from 2 weeks ago...untouched photography:




Very difficult hole position...nearly impossible from above the hole.

Bart




Love wild greens but that seems a bit much. Surely the green is not as severe8gimmicky) as it looks in a photo? I would guess that would be the case.

I once saw a putt from above the hole (lower right portion of picture ) catch the ridge, take a turn left, and run all the way off the green, about 20 yards down the hill.  From that, it did seem a bit severe.  Although the golfer obviously could have aimed a bit more to the right

Having 9 putted from 3 feet in competition before perhaps I am a bit touchy?

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

That picture of #8 green shows the hole in a location we really didn't intend to be used.  However, they use it every once in a while just because the members are a bit crazy and they enjoy it.

The left half of the green is fairly flat and that's where the hole is 2/3 of the time.  The right half makes the hole at least 1/2 shot harder.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

That picture of #8 green shows the hole in a location we really didn't intend to be used.  However, they use it every once in a while just because the members are a bit crazy and they enjoy it.

The left half of the green is fairly flat and that's where the hole is 2/3 of the time.  The right half makes the hole at least 1/2 shot harder.

Understand... have awoken to many a "what the heck?" placements on our own, rather subtle greens. How would you compare OM, BN and Bay of Dreams in tems of green contours?


My playing partners at BOD said that the greens there remindned them a bit of the boldness at OM.

[Jim Colton]

Greg:

That picture of #8 green shows the hole in a location we really didn't intend to be used.  However, they use it every once in a while just because the members are a bit crazy and they enjoy it.

The left half of the green is fairly flat and that's where the hole is 2/3 of the time.  The right half makes the hole at least 1/2 shot harder.

I'm hoping Scott Szabo will chime in and mention that both he and I got up and down for birdie to that pin location during the B flight finals of the Yucca this year.  He was in the back bunker, I was in the collection area in front of the green.  It's definitely the trickiest pin position out there, but I think it's part of the normal rotation now.  I agree Ballyneal members are a bit loony.

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

That picture of #8 green shows the hole in a location we really didn't intend to be used.  However, they use it every once in a while just because the members are a bit crazy and they enjoy it.

The left half of the green is fairly flat and that's where the hole is 2/3 of the time.  The right half makes the hole at least 1/2 shot harder.

Understand... have awoken to many a "what the heck?" placements on our own, rather subtle greens. How would you compare OM, BN and Bay of Dreams in tems of green contours?


My playing partners at BOD said that the greens there remindned them a bit of the boldness at OM.

The three courses you named are all quite different in terms of their green contours.  I have not played the Bay of Dreams yet but I can assure you it is the least bold of the three.  There are some difficult greens in there (2, 3, 8, 18) but not as many as the other courses have.

Ballyneal's are the wildest of the bunch, although as I have explained before, many of the most severe contours are down into bowls and there are usually alternate putting lines by which the creative player can remove much of the sting of the elevation change.

Old Macdonald's greens are so much larger than the others named that you may find some wild putts, but generally not wild putts when you are inside of thirty feet from the hole.  Beyond that, it becomes a question of whether it is more difficult to get down in two than it is to do so from the normal hazards surrounding the normal green.

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