[Ran Morrissett]

What is the history of the diagonal carry off the tee? It certainly is a wonderful design feature in that it allows every golfer to match its risk/reward attributes to his/her own abilities.

A LOT of the pre-1910 courses centered around one essentially straight hole after another, with the 17th at St. Andrews being the most famous exception (I'm not sure when today's back tee was put in on 14).

Is Macdonald's Cape at National the first diagonal carry hole in the U.S.? Is that why its design is so revolutionary?

There is nothing at Ekwanok, Myopia Hunt, Oakmont, Chicago GC, Garden City GC  or TCC to best it for that honor - at least based on my understanding of those holes at that time (Raynor put in the diagonal bunker on 14 at Chicago GC in 1922).

Cheers,

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ran,
I'm not sure if it would qualify, but I have to mention Astoria Golf & CC where the "play" shot (tee shot) is from the top of the ridges of dunes, down to the bottom of the dune floor on holes 1,6,9,12,13,14,&15. You are literally coming in from a diagonal with all of tha massive natual containment and it is quite awe-inspiring.

The beauty of the greens on these holes are the way they seemingly hug the natural slopes of the dunes with minimal bukering when needed to properly protect them.

One must remember that this is a course where the word "diagonal" is in it most extreme, in it's most natural element several times during the round. One of the main reasons for any architecture aficianado to search it out and enjoy. Many thanks to Brad Klein for shining the light on this hidden gem!

[Gib_Papazian]

The diagonal carry at the 14th of NGLA is not the original design of the hole - I cannot believe that a "diagonal" carry originated there in the United States.

I would be interested if anyone in the Treehouse knows the history of #2 at North Berwick.

[TEPaul]

Others like George Bahto or Gib Papazian could probably explain much better than I but I can't really see that #14 NGLA ever had a fairway that could be considered much of a diagonal carry off the tee.

I'm aware that very early in NGLA's history the green formed a cape out into the bay and may have created a situation where a golfer could carry the ball all the way to the green from the tee (over water). As such, on this particular hole anyway, it's likely, in my mind that the whole concept of a "daigonal carry" to a fairway from a tee being called a "cape" is a bit of a misnomer!

Certainly some holes that have a green set in a "cape like" manner also have fairways set at a diagonal to the tee.

Certainly the best diagonal carry fairway I've ever seen is #5 Mid Ocean--it just seems to be one of the best and natural land and water formations for this kind of thing possible!

I probably can't explain this correctly but to form a really good diagonal fairway carry the inside edge of the fairway has to form a line that crosses over the axis of a well struck drive at some reasonable distance with of course something like water to carry to reach the point of where the axises cross! I can't see with the present tee (or the original tees) at NGLA and the angle of the fairway that that was ever the way NGLA's #14 fairway was!

[Paul_Turner]

In "The Captain", Geoff Shackelford writes that Harry Colt was the only golden age designer who ever wrote in detail about the diagonal carry; which I find surprising.  

Colt does indeed write about this strategy in "Some Essay in Golf Course Architecture" and in an essay in the back of his bio "Colt and Co".

Thinking back to his very first design: Rye.  The original first hole there was a diagonal carry across the road/ditch.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

I may disagree with Geoff on this one.  Tillie, Ross, and the Good Doctor wrote varying essays called the "Zig Zag," the "Diagonal," and the "Oblique" - I can't recall now who wrote what, but its clear they were thinking angles of play, and carrying varying distances.  Perhaps not with water, as in the Cape Hole, but angles nonetheless.

I still find the "Hell's Half Acre" concept of Tillie to be out of the mainstream of Golden Age thinking, as it is mandatory forced carry, rather than the options line of thought developing in the same time period as a result of forced carries in earlier designs.

[Brian Phillips]

I am not exactly sure if we are talking about diagonal carries across bunkers or water or rough but surely Machrihinish must be one of the first in Britain?

The 1st is a perfect 'chew off as much as you dare' sort of hole and is one of the best 1st holes in the world apparently.  (Never played the course just seen it on videos).  Is that not a diagonal carry off the tee?

If it is diagonal shots over bunkers then Sunningdale is a good example especially the Old course.  Which is where Colt learnt his trade.

Brian

[Gib_Papazian]

In my opinion, it is a simple matter to arrange a diagonal carry from the tee, be it over bunkers, water or barranca.

The feature that separates the good from great is the tie-in with the putting surface and green complex. The closer your ball ends up to the inside edge of the hazard, the easier the approach shot ought to be.

Those who "chicken-out" must be faced with either blind forced carry or a putting surface/approach area that shoulders away their ball from that angle.

Therefore, if you decline to dare a risky line off the tee, you should have to hit an exceptional shot to find the putting surface.

This does not mean the carry ought to be long and reward the big gunner - just that everyone be forced to weigh how close to perdition they wish to flirt.

#5 at Mid Ocean is the best hole I have ever seen using this strategy because it is a combinaton of the original concept of a "Cape" jutting into Mangrove Lake with a diagonal carry from the tee.

I've stated before that the hole would be drastically improved if they simply cut all the foilage (is that spelled right?) aroound the green. It needs to be completely exposed to the wind and visually, the player must be able to see the entire peninsula.

Of course, the key is the "catcher's mitt" on the right side of the green. Go ahead and aim towards the house off the tee. Unless you draw it, your ball will end up on the far side of the fairway.

If you can get it close from there, you are a better player than me. That mitt kicks balls away towards the bunker from the wrong angle.

I know . . . . . having learned the hard way. By the 4th round, I just gave up playing chicken and forced myself to be brave for a change.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RAn,

Wasn't the 3rd hole at NGLA the first diagonal carry hole, not the 14th ?

The first at GCGC (circa 1936) could be considered a diagonal carry hole, and # 9 might qualify as well.

[Frank Pasquale]

I pride myself on being a golfer, but admit I am a neophyte when it comes to architecture...

Is the 5th hole at Bethpage Black a good example of a diagonal carry?  Seems there is quite a bit of risk if you try to hit your drive to the right side of the fairway, which gives the best angle to the green, because you are carrying the longest part of the bunker.  For those who play to the left of the fairway, over the shorter part of the bunker, the approach shot is extremely demading.

[johnk]

Gib,

Nice definition of what makes the exquisite model
of Cape type hole.

Of course, when I read it, I think of my illustrious
home course - Shoreline in Mt. View and realize what a nice hole #12 is.  I think it really hits on the key points of
your definition - and it's sometimes driveable to boot...

Plus I'm a bit tired of all the name dropping of NGLA,
Mid-Ocean, Pine Valley, etc...  I have played
from the beach at #2 at North Berwick, though -
so there...

Maybe I should start a separate topic to
have people enumerate good examples
of Redans, Capes and even Alps or Saharas at
muni courses (outside of Scotland)...


johnk

[corey miller]

Frank-Bethpage 5 is the better hole but i believe bethpage 7 is the better example of the diagonal carry.

[Craig Disher]

I checked an old map - the diagonal carry over the ditch at #11 at Littlestone was in play as of 1894. Even though Braid and MacKenzie were consulted in later years and made some serious changes to the course they didn't touch #11's routing. A new back tee was added a couple of years ago in preparation for Open qualifying next year. Unfortunately it was placed more in line with the fairway, cutting down the diagonal. There's more carry required to reach the fairway but since the hole usually plays downwind, the gorse and bushes don't come into play.

[Steve Curry]

The Leatherstocking GC, Devereux Emmet, 1909 has a diagonal off the tee on 18.  The 18th tee is an island on Otsego lake, hitting back to the shoreline cantering away and to your left.

Regards,
Steve

[SPDB]

Ran -
Wouldn't #3 at TCC qualify as a diagonal carry? I'm not certain what the history of the hole is, and certainly if the hole played to the same length (doubtful) at the turn of the century the hillside couldn't have been carried, but if that right hillside was always meant to have been negotiated it would seem to qualify and also predate NGLA.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm not sure what was the first American diagonal hazard off the tee, but the 15th at Garden City 1899 had to be one of them - another Emmet design. When you think of it there haven't been many diagonal tee shots, then or now - the 2nd at Cypress Point is one of the few I can think of. But the few diagonal tee shot hazards in this country were most likely not the result of something seen on our shores but the famous examples overseas - like the Cape.

[GeoffreyC]

There are two beauties at Siwanoy but they are 2nd shots on par 5's and they utilize the stream flowing through the course perfectly.  That was Ross (1914).

[mike_beene]

What about 3 at Pebble?I'm not sure what you gain by being too agressive.

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