Is the 17th at Cypress a Great Hole or an Obstacle Course?

[Kalen Braley]

If MacKenzie planted the trees -- or chose not to take them out when he built the course -- then he must have understood the impact they would have 80 years later.

I'd leave 'em -- especially if MacKenzie wanted them there.

Rick, I can't buy that Mackenzie wouldn't have wanted them managed to preserve the challenge he selected them for.  To follow your logic when their timespan of allocated years expires we are to believe he envisioned them as horizontal challenges for the next decade?

Someone else suggested removing all but one, but with the others removed thare's  a good chance the last tree would not remain staning past the first winter.

Anyone have pictures to show the development of this?

Tony,

I would also agree with your assertion.  MacK was a golf course designer, not an agrnomist.  In Shackelfords book its well documented that he left that sort of stuff for the experts.  I would have guessed he would have wanted them mainted as they were and perhaps trimmed back thru the years.

Here are some pics, although they aren't the best.

[JohnV]

Its a great hole, over the top.  One of the great holes in the world.

The problem lies in the ball and equipment have ruined it.  When Tiger tried to drive it I thought the world has gone mad. 

Sandy Tatum told me the other day that someone hit it over with a 3 wood.

JB Holmes supposedly did it during a round on the Monday of the ATT this year.  I played it that day and there was about a 30 MPH wind directly behind the player who went for the green.

If JB can it hit it over the green on a day like that, I'm not too worried about the hole being outdated by technology during normal play for normal humans.

[Dave_Miller]

We have, in the past, debated that a copse of trees in the path to a green is an abomination.  What do we think about the 17th at CPC?

Bob

Bob:
For us mere mortals it is a great hole.  Many strategic options for the average player.  Also in trying to imagine what it was like when opened it seems to me it would be a great match play hole.  David Stamm's analysis is right on to me.
Best
Dave

[Adam Clayman]

The nature of Cypress trees is to not be too tall. I assume they have not grown very much since my one play 8 years, 7 months, 29 days, 22 hours ago. At that time the trees were directly in my line to the flag from the center of the fairway. The 8 iron I hit had absolutely no problem carrying the vertical obstacle.

Is it much different today?

And, Those pros love to play the heroic shot when nothing is at stake.  Certainly, without wind aid, the new I&B are responsible for that option even existing.
 Unless Bob or someone else can recall an earlier aggressive attempt?

[Chip Gaskins]

well then i have to ask.  on your tee shot do you play out to the left of the trees or chance and tread what looks to be a very small opening out on the right. 

[Rick Shefchik]

Chip,

In my opinion, only Moe Norman would try to play to the right of the trees.

For the rest of us, going left is the safe, sane option. As Adam said, you can clear those trees with an 8-iron if you aren't too close to them.

[Pat Burke]

1990 Crosby.  WInd was blowing so hard in to the tee shot that I couldn't reach the green in 2 shots!!
I managed to hit driver on the green on 16!  I was pretty impressed, until I four putted
After my first putt, I followed my ball across the green for about 12 feet trying to mark it as the wind kepy blowing it.  Called an official (who shall remain nameless...he apologized the next week) who told me to keep playing, "we don't suspend play on the TOUR for wind"  (I was a rookie btw).  Back to 17, I ran a beautiful little 7 iron from about 40 yards short for my third up to about 5 feet for par.  Missed the putt, and watched my putt blow off the front of the green.  Dougherty was two groups behind my group I think.  They suspended play about 5 minutes after I finished 18 .  Should have known then my career wouldn't amount to much

I found the 2002 stats for Patrick Burke on PGAtour.com.  Is that you? 

Yep roughly 45 pounds ago

[Jed Peters]

From the pictures it seems like I can hit my stock shot (draw) off the centerline of the trees and be about level with them on the left. then a wedge/9 iron to the green?

NOTE: I've never actually played CPC. I'd probably by dying by this point based on how awesome the previous 16 holes were, and not able to actually concentrate on playing a shot here!

[Matt_Cohn]

Has the right edge shrunk due to erosion? Or is the narrowing solely due to the expansion of the trees?

[Adam Clayman]

I was the only member of my team that played left. The others purposely played right. One guy did the double Hail Irwin hitting the rocks on both tee and approach shots making one of the greatest pars ever.

[Rick Shefchik]

From the pictures it seems like I can hit my stock shot (draw) off the centerline of the trees and be about level with them on the left. then a wedge/9 iron to the green?

NOTE: I've never actually played CPC. I'd probably by dying by this point based on how awesome the previous 16 holes were, and not able to actually concentrate on playing a shot here!

Jed,

That's the way I played it the one time I was fortunate enough to be there.

And it's true that you are in a state of semi-shock over what has come before, but one of the wonders of #17 is that it grabs your full attention, despite the splendors behind you.

[Chip Gaskins]

so why not take most of the risk out and hit a driver way down up the left?  it looks that still leaves you a short iron in, correct?  i can't see where trying to thread a drive into that small area on the right gets you anything.

[Bob Jenkins]

It seems to me that the only logical play from the tee is for your drive to be as far up on the left as possible. That is where the caddies directed us when there this summer. To the right of the trees is far too dangerous for the average Joe like me.

Adam, a good, straight drive does not leave you with room to get it up and over the trees, at least from what I recall.

To answer Bob, it seems to me the trees must now be much wider and more of a challenge than they were several years ago. Hit a good drive straight and not get it FAR enough left of the trees leaves you blocked out. I would think they could be trimmed back and still be effective.

I do love having fairway hazards like this but it seems to me there is little or no room for error and it should be a bit more forgiving, especially after the emotional high of what has preceded you to this drive.

Thinking about that place gets my juices going. What a treat!

[Tim Bert]

It seems to me that the only logical play from the tee is for your drive to be as far up on the left as possible. That is where the caddies directed us when there this summer. To the right of the trees is far too dangerous for the average Joe like me.

Adam, a good, straight drive does not leave you with room to get it up and over the trees, at least from what I recall.

To answer Bob, it seems to me the trees must now be much wider and more of a challenge than they were several years ago. Hit a good drive straight and not get it FAR enough left of the trees leaves you blocked out. I would think they could be trimmed back and still be effective.

I do love having fairway hazards like this but it seems to me there is little or no room for error and it should be a bit more forgiving, especially after the emotional high of what has preceded you to this drive.

Thinking about that place gets my juices going. What a treat!

Bob,

I agree that hitting a driver and not getting it out far enough left will leave you with a dreadful chance at getting up and over the trees, bit that's the beauty of it.  You can try to go right and really pay a price, you can try to go left and end up blocked out if you take a lot of club and don't hit it far enough left, or you can lay back and go over the trees.

My caddie handed me my 3-iron hybrid, and directed me to what I thought was left.  I hit the shot on the exact line he suggested.  When I started walking to my ball, I was confused because the trees were in my direct line.  I asked the other caddie, who was walking nearby, why I had been given the 3I when I didn't hit it far enough to get past the trees.  He said, "He wasn't taking you around; he's taking you over."  I was pleasantly surprised when I got to my ball and found that I only had 8-iron in and had plenty of room to get over the trees.

I don't hit the ball particularly long or high, and yet I was able to play the hole as 3I, 8I (and two chips and two putts for a 6  - but that's not the point!)  I think it works.  16, 17, and 18 is an exacting finish.

[Patrick_Mucci]

We have, in the past, debated that a copse of trees in the path to a green is an abomination.  What do we think about the 17th at CPC?

Bob,

To be fair, I think you have to analyze the features in the context of the era in which they were created.

To examine them solely in the context of today's play is unfair.

Saturday afternoon I played golf with an assistant pro, who was partnered with a member, against myself and another member.

On the 3rd hole, about 400 yards, a slight dogleg left, with a huge tree at the corner, he drove the ball over the tree and about 60-80 yards from the green.

I recall Ken Venturi playing the hole the same way in 1964, right after he won the U.S. Open.  However, the tree was a lot smaller and Venturi was about 50-70 yards behind where this assistant hit his ball.

I can't drive it over the tree.

I can get within 120-140-160 yards of the green depending on conditions, but, the tree remains a major obstacle to me and every other member of the club.

To the members it's a very good hole, demanding on the tee shot, approach and any recovery, with an interesting and challenging green.

To this young fellow, it's a nothing hole, just a driver over the tree and a short Sand or Lob wedge.

I think you'd really like the hole if you played it.  It's a terrific hole for the members and most good golfers.
Mike Sweeney has played it, perhaps he remembers it.

But, huge heads on drivers with long, light weight shafts allow young strong golfers to hit the ball distances that the former U.S. Open Champion never thought of. 

So, how can we context a hole or holes that remain static in the face of performance than continues to vastly improve ?

How can we context holes that relied on length and specifically placed features for their defense, when that length and those features are irrelevant to the modern player ?

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

You are right, it's like having a speed typing contest on an Underwood vs an IBM Selectric. The distances produced today make a mockery of classical architecture.

Bob

[Michael Robin]

BTW, is there a prettier place on the planet than the tee at 17 at Cypress Point Club? To the left is the great 16th and the explosion of Cypress trees at Cypress Point, in front of you the wonderful 17th and to the right the beautiful view towards Point Lobos and Big Sur beyond. Every lucky time I've been there it has taken my breath away and made me feel great to be alive.

[David Stamm]

BTW, is there a prettier place on the planet than the tee at 17 at Cypress Point Club? To the left is the great 16th and the explosion of Cypress trees at Cypress Point, in front of you the wonderful 17th and to the right the beautiful view towards Point Lobos and Big Sur beyond. Every lucky time I've been there it has taken my breath away and made me feel great to be alive.

Well said, Michael. I didn't want to leave!

[Tom Huckaby]

So who cares if there are people who can now drive the green?  Let them try.  I keep hearing about people almost making it, or knocking it over, or whatever... I have yet to hear about someone making a 2 on the hole, or even a three via this route.  And if anything, I'd say rather than making a mockery of the golf hole, it presents an interesting new option, for those brave enough or strong enough or dare I say stupid enough.

I still think this is a fantastic golf hole, one of the best on this planet, just as is.  You all seem to be forgetting the most unique aspect of the golf hole - and that is the short right way to play it.  That is, 200 or so off the tee, hugging the coast, then right of the trees for the second.  I think it's unique in all of golf in this shot - the shortest off the tee - being the riskiest and most daring (that is until driving the green became an option).  In any case it's not a very wise play, but it's there...

And the trees just as is make one take definite choices off the tee, as several have explained.  I'd say this is a GOOD thing.. cut them down or trim them and it's still a good hole, but with then zero thought required off the tee - just pick a line and blast away.  There are plenty of golf holes like that.....

Nope, I'd say the only change I can get behind is perhaps the elimination of the back bunkers - that not only wou'd make for the cool infinity green shivas and Rich describe, but also would eliminate a potential safety net for those trying to drive the green.

This is a great, great golf hole, my friends.  I can't really understand thinking of it otherwise.

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Bob, Driver is the key. As Tim points out, driver is unnecessary if you hit it more than 220.

Chip, It's the line of instinct and for some more fun.

As an aside, isn't it true that the only legal place to drop (other than re-tee) if one goes long left on 16 is somewhere on Oahu?

[Mike Benham]

Since a majority of us don't hit it 275 yards off the tee, the left option, especially if you are too far left, greatly lengthens the second shot to the green.

[John Mayhugh]

I can't help but think what an awesome match play hole this would be. 

In stroke play, it's hard to imagine someone hitting up the right side because the line and yardage would need to be nearly perfect.  Throw in some wind and it's an extremely risky shot.  But in match play, an aggressive play right of the trees could leave a very short iron in.

The cypress tree & rock on the left side of the fairway really enhance the "thread the needle" feel from the tee.  But there is quite a bit more room than the player perceives.

Great hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Even though I still think the hole would benefit with some judicious tree-trimming, I think Tom makes some excellent points in the number of different ways the hole can be played.....it really does offer a ton of variety in how one can attempt to play the hole.

And I don't see a problem with guys going for that green from the tee.  Its about as risky a shot as I can think of as short, right, and long are all very dead.

Its a great hole.

[Mike Benham]

A couple more views ...



Showing the width of the landing area ...







The result of a perfect drive down the left side corridor ... leaving 90 yards to the middle left hole location.

[Tom Huckaby]

Excellent pics contributed by the Silver Fox.

Which also should go to show that those who find the trees to be too big, or too much of an obstacle, or whatever, well... the proof is in the shot.  Said Fox is a quite long hitter (especially for an old guy) but heck if he can get it there, many others could do.  Oh hell that was just me giving him shit - man that is one PERFECT shot - as he states - and is out of range for us mortals.  The point is more that as others have stated, if one lays back, going over the trees remains very doable.  And heck if that is too much, then just bunt one left past where Benham's drive went and play it as a three shotter - you weren't gonna get there even if the trees weren't there anyway.

I still find it to be pretty damn great just as is - it's unique and provides choices and what in the world is the harm in that?

TH