[David_Tepper]

The Olympic Club has officially decided to replace the grass on all the Lake Course greens as well as altering some of them.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/27/SPV312JG6I.DTL 

[Ronald Montesano]

Arnie looks like he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, with his arm around a much-younger lass.  He's not involved with Olympic Club, is he?  Who is doing the greens?

[Jed Peters]

Glad I'm playing it on the 24th of next month! Last time with the "old" layout!

(Which I thought was hard enough by itself!)

[Ian Larson]

sounds like he is involved according to the article

[John Kavanaugh]

Just another example of why turf research is bad for golf.

[Sean Leary]

Arnie looks like he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, with his arm around a much-younger lass.  He's not involved with Olympic Club, is he?  Who is doing the greens?

He is involved at Pebble, not Olympic.

[Scott Stambaugh]

Just another example of why turf research is bad for golf.

Huh?

The only thing bad for golf in this case is the fact that a great short Par 3 is being ruined for four days of golf.

Scott

[John Kavanaugh]

Without the magic bullet of new strains the gun would never be drawn. 

[David_Tepper]

John K. -

In this case, there is a chance that turf research will be GOOD for golf.

The nematode problem that afflicts poa greens in the SF Bay Area is one that has yet to be solved. The toxic chemicals that have most frequently been used to keep the nematode infestations under control are no longer available due to government regulation.

Hopefully, the strain of bent grass that will be used on the Lake Course (and has been used on other SF Bay Area courses) will both thrive in this area and prove to be nematode resistant.

The other challenge will be to keep the native poa from creeping back into these greens over time.  That may prove to be the biggest problem.

DT   
   

[Matt_Cohn]

David,

Isn't *all* bent very nematode resisant? Isn't it only poa that is affected?

[Joel_Stewart]

David,

Isn't *all* bent very nematode resisant? Isn't it only poa that is affected?

Yes the nematode only attacks poa.  The trouble is poa can take over bent.

It is scientifically impossible to keep poa out of bent.  You can combat it for short periods of time and Olympic will be able to keep it out until the 2012 US Open but its a daily battle especially in the climate that Olympic is in.

There are so many things wrong with this episode, many have discussed on GCA for many years. 

In the end this will be one of the worst disasters in golf architecture history.  It's led by a superintendent who is so head strong that he will not listen to anyone and that he hired his friend, a 4th rate architect who is a "yes man" to this superintendent that has no experience in such matters to butcher a classic course.

[John Kavanaugh]

In the end this will be one of the worst disasters in golf architecture history.  It's led by a superintendent who is so head strong that he will not listen to anyone and that he hired his friend, a 4th rate architect who is a "yes man" to this superintendent that has no experience in such matters to butcher a classic course.

Joel,

I feel bad for you and all the people who love your course.  Thank you for being so honest with your opinions because while it may be too late to save your course you may influence future decisions by others.  Keep your chin up and try to find happiness in other places that has been stolen from your life in what really is trivial matter in the grand scheme of things.  I have found comfort in playing crap courses where I don't have expectations that can be ruined by ego, idiocy, ambition and budget.  Something needs to be done before rouge superintendents ruin the game for players, owners, architects and golfers alike, for what, and that is what hurts.  For what?

[Anthony_Nysse]

  Joel,
  So it's Pat Finlan's fault that they greens at Olympic have nematodes? I've heard nothing but praise for what he has done since his arrival-the tree removal program and the sand topdressing program. He's one of the best in the business-you should embrace him, not blame him.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Joe Hancock]

Here's a stupid question....

If they want bentgrass greens, and the soil has nematodes that only attacks poa......why disrupt a good thing going?

Throw down the bentgrass seed!.........

Joe

[Joel_Stewart]

  Joel,
  So it's Pat Finlan's fault that they greens at Olympic have nematodes? I've heard nothing but praise for what he has done since his arrival-the tree removal program and the sand topdressing program. He's one of the best in the business-you should embrace him, not blame him.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Anthony_Nysse]

Where did I say that?  It's absurd you would make that statement.

It is a fact that Pat hired Bill Love (his friend for over 25 years) over Gil Hanse and Mike Devries over the green committee chairman.

It is a fact that Pat insists on doing work in house and he is a butcher on the golf course.  He is not a professional shaper and his work shows it.  Look at the work on the 4th on the Cliffs, the 8th on the Lake and the 15th and 16th on the Ocean course and you will see what you call one of the best in the business and his hatchet job.  He and Bill have enhanced the work of Trent Jones (who worked on the club iprior to the 1966 US Open) by placing tier after tier of tees, over 100 yards long on a classic course built in 1927.

Pat can grow grass.  Thats it.  The top dressing and tree program enhanced the grass.  Thats it.  He has no knoweldge or respect for classic architecture.  He does not understand nor does he have any interest in learning about shot strategy or design features.  He wants every hole to be a bowling alley of green grass.  All of the rough edge bunkers are now ovals and circle mainly by bad maintance.   The greens are circles by poor cutting, again bad maintence.   The course has dropped in every magazine ranking.

He is a disgrace to your profession and has embarrased the Olympic Club. 

Actually, if you're refering to rankings and this apparent "drop" that Olympic has gone through since Mr. Finlans arrival, Golf Digest has rated it 2 spots higher to #23 and Golfweek has it rated #20, same as in 2007. Golf Magazine also has it rated #26, same as the previous year. There is no "drop" in rankings, unless you're reading different magazines....

Tony Nysse
Asst Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Matt_Cohn]

So who actually designed the new greens on #14 and #15 Ocean?

[Ian Larson]

Joel,

Im not disagreeing with you about choosing Bill Love over Hanse or Devries. Nor will I disagree with your emotions about what has been done to the course. We all love golf and its classic courses so its hard to see wrong things happen to them.

But I will disagree with Pat being a disgrace to the profession. You are the first person Ive heard talk about him like that. Its typical of club members to hate the super because their personal agendas are not being done on the course.

But here is the real issue.....

How is Pat able to make such big decisions over the greens chair, the greens committee, the GM and the membership? Olympic is a great club and its surprising Pat is able to choose the architect of his choice. That should be in the hands of the club and club officials with consideration to Pats reccomendations. He is a super, not an architect. Obviously, according to your remarks. If he has such a huge disdain to classic golf course architecture wouldnt that be evident to the membership and management? And if so why would they put that power in his hands?

If this is the case then the real problem lies within the membership and its management for allowing this to happen.

[Joe Hancock]

Here's a stupid question....

If they want bentgrass greens, and the soil has nematodes that only attacks poa......why disrupt a good thing going?

Throw down the bentgrass seed!.........

Joe

So maybe it isn't such a stupid question after all. If there is a natural predator present, why would you remove it if it's target is the enemy?

Anyone?

Joe

[Joel_Stewart]

Tony:  Here is the exact list if you want to split hairs.  I have presented this to the green committee and every new president for the last several years.  Its not something I would be proud about and I see Olympic dropping more in the next few years.

Golf Digest
Ranked for all 43 years.
America's 200 Toughest Courses (1966)
America's 200 Toughest Courses (1967-1968)
America's 100 Most Testing Courses (1969-1970) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Tests of Golf (1971-1972) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Tests of Golf (1973-1974) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1975-1976) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1977-1978) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1979-1980) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1981-1982) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1983-1984) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1985-1986) - First 10 - No. 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1987-1988) - First 10 - No. 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1989-1990) - Second 10 - No. 17
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1991-1992) - First 10 - No. 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1993-1994) - Second 10 - No. 12
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1995-1996) - Second 10 - No. 11
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1997-1998) - Second 10 - No. 11
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1999-2000) - Second 10 - No. 11
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2001-2002) - Second 10 - No. 11
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2003-2004) - Second 10 - No. 16
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2005-2006) - Third 10 - No. 25
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2007-2008) - Third 10 - No. 23


GolfWeek Magazine
Top 100 US classical courses

2004  #19
2006  #20
2008  #20

Golf Magazine
Top 100 courses in the world

1991 #23
1993 #23
1995 #30
1997 #28
1999 #29
2001 #32
2003 #39
2005 #44
2007 #45

[Joel_Stewart]

So who actually designed the new greens on #14 and #15 Ocean?

Matt:

Bill Love drew up the plans and Pat and his crew did the work.  He hired a former worker from Olympic named Joe Burnett to do some of the work.  Joe now works for a golf construction company that does quite a bit of work for David Kidd so its odd that he does quality work for Kidd and lousy work for Bill Love.  It all boils down to instruction and vision.

Ian:  I'll agree with your comments, my wording may be a little strong.  See my comments on how the super works the system under the rogue super thread.

Joe Hancock:
Within all this quality work, he has convinced the board to sod not seed in order to speed up the process.  It costs a hell of a lot more money and he says that we will be open for play much faster.  The greens will be rock hard for a while but he figures the members won't care.

[Mike_Young]

. If he has such a huge disdain to classic golf course architecture wouldnt that be evident to the membership and management? And if so why would they put that power in his hands?

If this is the case then the real problem lies within the membership and its management for allowing this to happen.

Ian,
I don't kow this supt....but how do any of us know ...maybe the membership has a disdain for classic golf architecture....or maybe in their view they are improving such classic architecture.....who knows

[Matt_Cohn]

Tony:  Here is the exact list if you want to split hairs.  I have presented this to the green committee and every new president for the last several years.  Its not something I would be proud about and I see Olympic dropping more in the next few years.

Golf Digest
Ranked for all 43 years.
America's 200 Toughest Courses (1966)
America's 200 Toughest Courses (1967-1968)
America's 100 Most Testing Courses (1969-1970) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Tests of Golf (1971-1972) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Tests of Golf (1973-1974) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1975-1976) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1977-1978) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1979-1980) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1981-1982) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1983-1984) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1985-1986) - First 10 - No. 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1987-1988) - First 10 - No. 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1989-1990) - Second 10 - No. 17
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1991-1992) - First 10 - No. 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1993-1994) - Second 10 - No. 12
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1995-1996) - Second 10 - No. 11
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1997-1998) - Second 10 - No. 11
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1999-2000) - Second 10 - No. 11
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2001-2002) - Second 10 - No. 11
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2003-2004) - Second 10 - No. 16
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2005-2006) - Third 10 - No. 25
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2007-2008) - Third 10 - No. 23


GolfWeek Magazine
Top 100 US classical courses

2004  #19
2006  #20
2008  #20

Golf Magazine
Top 100 courses in the world

1991 #23
1993 #23
1995 #30
1997 #28
1999 #29
2001 #32
2003 #39
2005 #44
2007 #45

So tree removal and firmer fairways are the only two correlations to the course's slide in the rankings? I don't understand.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Joel,
  Since were splitting hairs, since  Pat has been there, the course hasnt dropped in 2 of your 3 rankings, correct? you blame all the 'circle bunkers and circle greens' on Pat and his crew and say the course has dropped in the ranking. I'm also sure that Pat has NOTHING to do with Olympics ranking up until 2005, so throw out anything before that....if were splitting hairs....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Matt_Cohn]

So after seeing the official plans today, I guess I'll put in my two cents.

#7 seems fine to me. They can always move the tee up if it plays too long. I think they key will be making sure the green is severe enough given that it will only be two tiers. I like the plans to regrade the right rough and add a bunker short-left (you won't want to be there!).

#8 I guess I'm not convinced yet but maybe I will be. I think #8 right now is a really distinctive and cool hole. The added length and the new orientation seem fine, but the new green and bunkers seem pretty standard, although admittedly it's tough to tell. I wonder what the visual will be like from the tee. I don't even know why I think the current version is so cool, but I do, and I hope the new hole stands out in the same way.



#15 New green? Sure, why not.
#18 Ditto. Sounds good to me.

And as for redoing the greens in general, I'm sure they can keep them bent if they want to through the 2012 Open. After that, if every other course on the west coast is any indication, they'll eventually end up being poa annua again, right? If they can keep the poa annua out then it will be a heck of an investment. That's for sure.

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