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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Name a course without a short par three!
« on: July 01, 2002, 05:49:59 PM »
I question whether anyone can name a course that doesn't have a par three of less than 150 yards?  In fact, I'd be hard pressed to name a course that doesn't have at least two!  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2002, 05:53:22 PM »
My course has par 3's of 150, 164, 167, 185....

Joe

Grand Island GC
Grand Rapids, MI
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2002, 06:04:36 PM »
Joe,
I'm surprised!  Are those really the shortest yardages for each of those holes?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2002, 06:13:37 PM »
Mark,

Saw that one coming! ;)

Seriously though, how many of these "short" holes have green complexes built to provide exacting examinations from the front tees?  I'll bet dimes to dollars that the green complexes are designed around the demands from the tips.  

Except, perhaps, for the 5th at our mutual favorite, Lighthouse Sound, which might be at least playable from the 75 yard tee. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2002, 06:14:50 PM »
Ah, I apparently didn't read between the lines. I figured you were talking about the tees you'd be playing from! Sorry!

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

wsmorrison

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2002, 06:18:09 PM »
Mark,

The 5 par 3s at Rolling Green GC in Springfield, PA from the back tees are as follows:

#3   162 (downhill)
#6   185 (uphill)
#10  243 (uphill)!  Flynn drew it as a 260 yarder!
#14  203 (uphill)!!
#16  153 (nearly level)

William Flynn wrote:
"The rule most generally adhered to is to have four holes of the course one-shotters.  To the majority of golfers the one-shot holes are the most interesting and there is no real reason why there should not be five one-shotters particularly when such holes provide interest in the play and are of varying character."

Thankfully, he provided wonderful variety, outstanding character, and a bit of length in his par 3s at Rolling Green (as well as his other splendid courses).

Mark, when are you coming down for a return visit, looking forward to seeing you and John Chissard sometime soon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2002, 06:23:19 PM »
Sorry, Mark.  I too thought you meant from the playing tees you would play from.  From the white, yellow, and red tees the par 3s at RGGC are:

      white      yellow      red
#3   153        133         131
#6   178        152         145
#10  214       193          185
#14  192       145          87
#16  144       127          121


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

R.S._Barker

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2002, 06:33:40 PM »
Olympia Field's North
 6 -  187
 8 -  247
13 - 168
16 - 215

Royal New Kent

 3 - 191
 7 - 197
12 - 221
15 - 246

Check Sahalee out, I believe all it's par 3's are longer, but Royal New Kent has some of the longest total yardage par 3's.

R.S. Barker
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2002, 06:35:41 PM »
Ok, I admit it was a bit of a trick question!  But if you think about it, doesn't this bring up some interesting questions.  For example:

1) Are most par threes "less interesting" or "not as well designed" as viewed from the forward most tees?   If so, why??

2) A 120 yard hole is a 120 yard hole regardless of who is playing it right?

3) If like shortish par threes, why not go play from the shortest yardage on a few of them?  I bet you can always find short par threes on every golf course!  

4) I always question people who tell me that "the par threes on a particular course are all the same length" when there are several sets of tee boxes on each one.  If they played one short, one in the middle and one or two long and now you have variety right?   Why should you be hung up on where the super sets the tee markers or what the card yardage says?  

Starting to get some of the points I'm trying to make?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2002, 06:40:32 PM »
Mark,

Please see my response above.

The great, short par threes through history have all been to exacting, exciting green complexes that were designed to effectively test a shot of that length.  

Even the largest of them, the 6th at NGLA, has multiple quadrants that put intense pressure on the tee shot.  I see very little of that being built today.  

Without a great, enticing, but scary green complex, you're quite correct...a 120 yard hole is only a 120 yard hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Rokke

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2002, 06:40:33 PM »
Twisted Dune

Back 235 , 162 , 198 , 217
Daily 199 , 128 , 178 , 176
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2002, 06:40:40 PM »
Mark Fine,

Sadly, Boca Rio does not have a par 3 from the blue or red tees less than 150 yards

                Blue tees               REd Tees       app dist
 
# 3            193                        155
# 6            184                         170
# 13           220                        200
# 17           180                        166

They are all good par 3's but I would like to see a shortie in there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2002, 06:42:54 PM »
R.S. Barker,

Royal New Kent - Green tees:

#3 - 144
#7 - 135
#12 - 151
#15 - 158

You're not against green tees are you  ;)  I didn't pull my Olympia Field's scorecards but I would guess there are shorter yardages for those holes!
Mark


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2002, 06:49:31 PM »
Mike,
Why is that?  Are all holes designed this way or just par threes?    

Wayne,
I'd love to get down there again, hopefully later this summer.
 
Craig,
How about the forward tees?

Pat,
I should have known someone would come up with one  :(  You have to admit though, that is very rare on modern or classic courses.

Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2002, 07:01:49 PM »
I  think every hole, regardless of length, plays much different for different players. For instance, a player with a high clubhead speed generally imparts more spin on the ball, right? That would make certain greens/ pin positions more accessible to the high clubhead speed players. So that 120 yard shot plays much different to players of different swing characteristics....or does it? Maybe I've been suckered into giving my wife too many strokes all these years!

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Cirba

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2002, 07:02:50 PM »
Mark,

I think there are several reasons;

1) An effort to have "sufficient" total card yardage to be seen as a significant test.

2) Particularly on heavily played public courses, the idea that smallish greens do not hold up to foot traffic well.

3) Where do you put the requisite 5 sets of tees when the tips are 130 yards? ;)

4) The modern philsophy that suggests that these holes have more in common with "pitch and putt" than "real" golf courses.

As far as your question whether all golf holes are designed this way, or just par threes, I have to say that although most of the earliest short par threes had tiny greens, the example of the 6th at NGLA is anything but.  And, not all holes are designed to some formula of approach shot to green size or exactness, particularly on the best courses.

However, what I'm seeing more and more of on modern courses is that most every green is within a certain size range, irrespective of the demands of the approach.  

I'll give you an example, based on the course I played yesterday;

1) 375 yds, 30 deep, 37 wide
2) 365 yds, 33 deep, 36 wide
3) 435 yds, 38 deep, 26 wide
4) 462 yds, 30 deep, 28 wide (interestingly the smallest green on the course to this par four)
5) 603 yds, 27 deep, 35 wide
6) 223 yds, 36 deep, 36 wide
7) 538 yds, 32 deep, 36 wide
8) 161 yds, 27 deep, 33 wide
9) 392 yds, 36 deep, 33 wide

10) 410 yds, 30 deep, 26 wide
11) 190 yds, 27 deep, 35 wide
12) 320 yds, 33 deep, 30 wide
13) 534 yds, 37 deep, 22 wide (widest variance in shape)
14) 425 yds, 32 deep, 33 wide
15) 195 yds, 34 deep, 34 wide
16) 515 yds, 33 deep, 36 wide
17) 415 yds, 38 deep, 32 wide
18) 425 yds, 39 deep, 36 wide

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lehigh CC member

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2002, 07:06:15 PM »
Lehigh CC has no par 3 under 150 unless you play the girl's tees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2002, 07:12:05 PM »
What do you define as a "girls" tee?    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2002, 07:19:44 PM »
Mark:

There are numerous interesting iterations and combinations in golf architecture but when good architects think of variety in design in par 3s on a golf course I really don't think asking a good player to play one (or two) of the par 3s from the ladies (or forward) tees was one of them!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2002, 07:25:24 PM »
Tom,
When a course is set up for say a men's club championship, how many sets of markers are put out?  What is wrong with varying the yardages?  A tee box is a tee box right?  Must the markers always be set all or most of the way back?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2002, 07:45:22 PM »
Mark:

No, of course markers don't have to be set all the way back and they hardly ever are throughout a course even for a club championship. But it sounded like you were recommending back tee players playing from some very forward marker or tee like those for ladies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2002, 07:57:48 PM »
Course set up question: if the men's club championship is tommorrow, and the players are "used to" one teeing ground, due to other tee markers occupying other teeing areas, is it ok, or even preferred, that the tees can be set up on any tee area? Everyone plays from the same place, so it's fair....wait, that's another thread!

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2002, 08:06:22 PM »
Tom,
I'm just trying to get people to think about "tee boxes" a little differently.  Many people here don't seem to be too hung up about what we call par, why should they be hung up about what tee box they play?  

I was recently standing on a par three hole and the one guy said to me, "a shame there are no shortish par threes on this course".  Across from him to the right and about 40 yards in front of where we were playing there was a tee box making the hole play about 146 yards.  I said to him, we can go play up there if you want?  He thought I was joking.  Why?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2002, 10:17:52 PM »
At our last club meeting we had a play day afterwards, and when it came time to decide what game we should all play, I suggested a two man scramble and then the head pro recommended we alternate tees and go red, white, blue.

 It turned out to be alot of fun and interestingly enough par on the par 3 from the reds was difficult since no one was used to it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Andriole

Re: Name a course without a short par three!
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2002, 10:55:40 PM »
Old Warson CC-St Louis, played there yesterday;200,198,203,211yd respectively;but then is 200 yards really a long par 3 these days???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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