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PCCraig

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Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« on: August 20, 2008, 05:31:37 PM »
All-

Does anyone know anything about this course outside of St. Louis?

I am playing here with my father-in-law next weekend because the BMW will have closed down his course. The website looks interesting and a GCA search brought up some neat items, but no solid reviews.

Has anyone played recently?

PCC
H.P.S.

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 09:17:58 PM »
I played it two weeks ago. Will post photos soon. Interesting course on a tight piece of property. Lots of hills. The greens have enough contour to be interesting and the conditioning is rock solid (if a bit too soft). A few of the holes run back and forth over similar land and there are a lot, and I mean a lot, of trees. You should have fun...

Tom Walsh

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 09:29:31 PM »
I grew up about a block from Algonquin. Caddied and worked on the greens crew in the 70s (a long time ago!)
Anyway, an old layout-1903. Short 6100 yards, extremely tight. Tall, mature trees. Some significant hills. A suburban course surrounded by houses and a railroad.

I've played there twice in the last month (my son works there now). Zoysia fairways, bent greens. Pretty soft the two Mondays I played there. They had watered a lot. It had been extremely hot the two times I played.

The course is a little different than the one I grew up next to. They remodeled about 10-15 years ago. More mounds now. The greens definitely more difficult than I remember as a kid.
"vado pro vexillum!"

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2008, 07:05:52 AM »
I grew up about a block from Algonquin. Caddied and worked on the greens crew in the 70s (a long time ago!)

Tom,

Nice to see you posting on this site.


Tom caddied with my older brothers at Algonquin.  I caddied there in the 1980s and worked on the grounds crew in the early 1990s during some of the remodeling.

I will post my comments per Algonquin tonight after I put the kids to bed.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jim Nugent

Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2008, 08:08:21 AM »
Tom and Bill, do you like Algonquin more than Westborough? 

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2008, 09:04:21 AM »
Photos...

















PCCraig

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2008, 10:21:07 AM »
Jeff--

Thanks for the great photos...it sure looks like it is in great shape.

There sure are a lot of trees...but I suppose I am used to it growing up around all the courses here in Chicago.

Tom --

When you talk about the changes, what do you mean by more mounds? Around the greens or separating the holes? Has the routing more or less stayed the same over the years?
H.P.S.

wsmorrison

Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2008, 10:31:51 AM »
Jeff,

Thanks for posting the photos, it triggered some memories.  It looks in better shape then I remember.  Maybe your photographic skills?  My brother used to belong to Algonquin and I won one of my only two trophies there with him in a member-guest tournament.  I enjoyed the course but it is TIGHT.  There are way too many trees.  It is a small piece of property and there is a feeling of congestion throughout most of the holes.  Yet the architecture (Foulis at the start) is quite pleasing.  I didn't like the zoysia fairways (harder to hit crisp iron shots), but with that kind of heat and humidity, I guess it is required.

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2008, 11:15:56 AM »
Wayne & Pat,
Thanks for the kind words.

It is actually kind of shocking how many trees are there and how tight some of the holes are. This has been a good year to grow grass in Missouri, so many of the courses are in better condition than usual. The hills make the course play much longer than 6,100 yards.

I know the course sold some land and the original routing is changed. I would love the see what the first incarnation looked like. Regardless, it's a fun course and a great club with a vibrant energy.

PCCraig

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 11:56:34 AM »
Jeff / Wayne et. al. --

To be honest. I have grown to used to playing 7000 yard courses now that I enjoy playing something closer to 6000 so much more than I used to. Hitting Driver + 4 iron on every hole can make for a long day. ( I digress).

I am really looking forward to playing here next weekend and I will be sure to post my thoughts after the round.

PCC
H.P.S.

Steve Pozaric

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2008, 12:09:35 PM »

I didn't like the zoysia fairways (harder to hit crisp iron shots), but with that kind of heat and humidity, I guess it is required.


You are correct.  Most of the courses here have zoysia fairways.  St. Louis Country Club is a notable exception on the private side and Gateway National on the the public side (which is normally kept very wet and cart path only to save wear and tear).

Our super tells me that St. Louis is one of the more difficult places to grow grass (although this year has been an exception).

Steve Pozaric

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 01:41:20 PM »




Is this a Redan?  If so, can't tell if there used to be a bunker in front or if that creek is in its place as the hazard. 

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 02:01:00 PM »
Wayne,
Not really. There is not enough slope and the hole is so short (140ish) that is really asks for a dart, not a chaser. The creek does run right next to the green. It's one of the better holes, even if they do need to trim some trees.

PCCraig

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 03:14:13 PM »
The par-3 really would look like a redan if the bunkers on the right were replaced by a big mound.

I actually enjoy the zoysia fairways in STL. I pick the ball instead of divots, so I like it when the ball sits up.
H.P.S.

Tom Walsh

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 06:06:34 PM »
Bill Shamleffer- weren't you at the AGC caddy reunion 5-6 years ago? Looking back I thought I caddied a lot. The brothers Shamleffer really caddied a lot. llamas!

Algonquin or westborough? I played westborough a lot less- even shorter than AGC and even more shoehorned in a small property. Given the choice I'd play algonquin every time I think, although Westborough is a good club with good people. Westborough did a significant remodel also. although the routing remained the same.

"vado pro vexillum!"

Tom Walsh

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2008, 06:19:21 PM »
Pat Craig- the routing remains the same for the most part, with the exception of the old number 3 replaced with the 'new' par 3 5th. The old number 5 (now number 4) was a tough par 4 with a blind tee shot, and then a downhill second over a creek. Current number 4 is now a par 5 after the acquisition of some properties on the NE corner of the course.

Hope you enjoy your round. I have lots of fond memories of caddying there. I think there was a certain comraderie of the shared experience of the many boys who worked there. Lot's of great members, great characters and not too many jerks thank God.

BTW no tipping- much to the consternation of the caddy boys.

Tom
"vado pro vexillum!"

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2008, 11:40:56 PM »
Bill Shamleffer- weren't you at the AGC caddy reunion 5-6 years ago? Looking back I thought I caddied a lot. The brothers Shamleffer really caddied a lot. llamas!

Tom,

I was at the Caddie reunion in 2003 and I do recall seeing you there also.  I am still residing in Springfield, MA, but am still a die-hard Cards and Mizzou fan.  (By the way, although my brothers caddied a lot, I caddied more than they did.)


For the others on this site, Algonquin used to have a tremendous caddie program, and almost all of the caddies lived within a mile of the course.  So many lifelong friendships were formed in the caddie yard, that a few years ago we had a caddie reunion at one of the local American Legion halls.  Many former caddies attended covering about 4 decades of caddies.


On to the course.

AGC is a 1903 Foulis design.  The routing is unchanged for holes #1 and #6 through #18.  Holes #2 through #5 were changed primarily to accommodate a clubhouse and pool expansion.  (Of course a great but subtle hole was lost in the process.)  Prior to these changes Brian Silva had already begun in the late 1980's working on changes to the course, primarily by adding fairway bunkers, and redoing some of the greens and greenside bunkers and mounding.  In the very early 1990's holes #2-5 were modified

The old #2 was a 480 yard par-5, but the green was backed up to make way for the new pool.  It is now a 412 par-4.

The old #3 was a 130 yard par-3 and #4 was a 360 yard par-4.  The old #3 was paved over for parking and the tee for #4 was backed-up to create a par-4 of 434 yards.

The old #5 was a fun and tough par-4 of 410 yards.  The same tee is still used for what is now #4, but the hole was extended to become a 512 yard par-5, and a lake was even created for the left side of the last 100 yards.

The new #5 was then created to play back towards hole #6.  The new #5 is a 146 yard par-3.  And no this hole is not a redan.

Prior to these changes the course began with the following yardages: 420, 480, 130, 360 & 410.  The first five holes now have the following yardages: 416, 412, 434, 512 & 146.  Quite a change to the opening salvo.

As I stated the rest of the routing is unchanged, but almost every green has been changed in the last 25 years.  Before 1980, the course had 1 fairway bunker - on the 18th hole.  However, the greens had 2 to 4 bunkers per hole.  The greens were primarily level with some subtle breaks (think Bethpage Black greens).  And the green surfaces were typically slightly elevated.  The bunkers were shallow, but because of the greens usually being slightly built up, the bunker shots did require a shot to a green a couple feet above the sand.  And the sand was brown sand, as is natural to mid-west riverbeds.

The Silva changes resulted in the addition of about a dozen fairway bunkers, and some chocolate-drop mounds in the rough near landing areas.  Also additional mounding has been added to some green sides.  The sand is now all white sand (which in all of my visits to natural areas in the mid-west is not natural to the mid-west).  Some holes now have bunkers with a bit more depth and there are a variety of sizes of bunkers.

The course is very heavily treed.  However, I think it is essential for this course.  Holes #3, #2, #1, #18, #16, #15, #7 & #6 are all parallel to each other and the whole course is enclosed in just barely 100 acres.  Without each hole having its wall of trees to the right and left, the result would be a lot of golfers being in danger of being hit by stray shots, and a lot of slowdown of play as players would then often have to wait to play from adjoining fairways.

The course is very short, under 6200 from the tips, but it plays longer due to some elevation changes (#1 second shot is uphill, #6 tee shot is uphill, #7, #10, #12, #14 & #18 second shots are all uphill.), but also the tightness of the course makes driver often not the smart choice from the tee.  Therefore, rather than most of the course being a driver and wedge (six par-4s are under 385 yards and two par-5s are under 500 yards), most holes are a fairway wood or a hybrid off the tee and then a mid or short iron to the green.

The fairways are all zoysia.  Zoysia is an extensively discussed topic that needs no further discussion in this posting.  However, I do agree with Nick Price's comment when he won the 1993 PGA at Bellerive on Zoysia, that it does make chipping easier.

In my opinion, although the course lost some of it Foulis feel, the changes by Brian Silva have retained a very fun but challenging course of just barely over 6000 yards.  However, my biggest knock is that they now seem to like to be continuously changing the course.  I understanding they now want to take the 17 year-old #4 and get rid of the current green and build a new green further out so that the hole will then reach 600 yards.  Before 1985 the course would go a decade with only a couple greens being re-built.  Now it seems like each year another green has been changed.


My specific comments per the course.

#1 offers a very wide opening tee shot, but a challenging tee shot to an elevated and slightly crowned green.  Stay to the left side for your tee shot, then hit your approach to the front right.

#2 is very tight tee shot, and then better to play to the very front of the green for your second shot.

#3 as Tiger would say "is all in front of you".

#4 a blind tee shot over a hill, a driver may run through the fairway into downhill rough towards a creek.  The landing area (not visible from the tee is flat on the right, but the left side slopes to the right.  However, tee shots too far left may stay up in the rough.  The next shot is very downhill, so the green can be reached in two.  Play to the right side of the fairway and if the ball is running it should run towards the green.

#5, the left side hole locations are sucker pins, due to the creek on the left.  Play for the middle or to the right.

#6 VERY uphill tee shot, with 2nd shot blind.  Walk forward about 30 yards to see the green before hitting your second.

#7  VERY downhill tee shot.  It is not obvious from the tee, but there is more fairway on the left then appears, also better to approach the green from the left.  You second will be a VERY uphill wedge.

#8 if between clubs go with the longer club.  Better to be long than short and you do not want to be in the front left bunkers.

#9 my personal way to play is to hit a fairway wood and aim directly for the fairway bunker on the left.  You will then have a short iron to the green.

#10  if you have a hook tee-shot, aim to the right side of the fairway.  This hole not only turns about 60 degrees to the left, but the fairway slopes very slightly to the left. Do NOT go over this green.

#11 a 200 yard par-3 with the green slightly elevated.  The safe shot is to the right side of the green.

#12, blind tee shot into swale, and hole slightly doglegs left.  If you hit tee shots of 300 yards, go straight over the trees on the right and see if you can get close to the green.  Otherwise, fairway wood will leave you an uphill short iron to blind green.  Just shoot for the pin.

#13 (see #3)

#14, not only must you be in the fairway, but you must be in the center of the fairway.  Again, if you hit it long, your driver may get past the OB that is the range to the left of this hole.  After about 280 yards from the tee, there is no more OB left.  (But the tee shot is uphill.)

#15, shortest hole on the course, fairway slopes left to right, and going right puts you in jail.

#16, longest hole on the course and a very tight tee shot.  Hole gets wider after tee shot.  At about 140 from green, fairway goes very downhill until at about 70 yards from green.  So only tough decision is if you want to avoid a downhill wedge to elevated green, may need to leave your self a short iron.  Also, beware of the false front on the green.

#17  Do not be long.  Do no be left.

#18  A birdie opportunity coming home, 480 yard par-5, but after tee shot over slight swale, all slightly uphill.  At about 100 yards out from green there is a slight depression in the fairway on the left,  so better to be slightly right for your second shot.


Finally Algonquin v. Westbough is NO contest.  Westbough is on a smaller piece of property than Algonquin; Westbough has some goofy holes; and lacks the challange that Algonquin is able to offer inspite of barely being 600 yards.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 11:54:39 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

SBendelow

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2008, 09:27:39 PM »
The August 1903 issue of Golfers Magazine (p.177) suggests that Tom Bendelow did a nine -hole layout for Algonquin Golf Club that year. 
Maybe Robert Foulis added a second nine in 1904 or did a new layout?
( See "Golfing Before the Arch", by James Healy, p. 32)

Jim Nugent

Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2008, 09:09:30 AM »
The August 1903 issue of Golfers Magazine (p.177) suggests that Tom Bendelow did a nine -hole layout for Algonquin Golf Club that year. 

SBendelow -- any relation to Tom? 

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2008, 11:45:24 AM »
The August 1903 issue of Golfers Magazine (p.177) suggests that Tom Bendelow did a nine -hole layout for Algonquin Golf Club that year. 

SBendelow -- any relation to Tom? 

Grandson I presume?... Stuart Bendelow recently wrote a biography of his grandfather...

PCCraig

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Re: Algonquin Golf Club -- St. Louis
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 04:57:41 PM »
All--

I had the chance to head out to Algonquin this past weekend and I'm happy to report I very much enjoyed the course. My overall thoughts were that the course is very tight and with everyone here telling me so I went there with the mindset of using a 2-Iron / 3-Wood a lot off the tees. I used my driver twice, on the last two par-5's on the backside (16 and 18) and three woods for the rest.

While short, the approach shots were not easy in the least bit. The greens are small and I thought many bunkers were close to the green edge. There was a member tournament there the morning we played, and you could tell they had tucked a few pins. The only savior there was that the greens were pretty soft.

I think perhaps my favorite hole was the par-4 4th. The downhill par-4 with the green sitting next to the train tracks. What a neat hole with amazing amounts of charm. However I wasn't too crazy about the 5th, which I thought was a bit awkward, and the par 3 11th, which I didn't think fit the course well.

On another note, I had a chance to scope out Bellerive Friday night and the course looks fantastic. If they let the rough go a hair more I think STL will be well represented to the nation.
H.P.S.