[TEPaul]

"What courses did Flynn & Peters design or redesign?"

Wayne:

I can't imagine who Mr. MacWood is asking that question, can you? Could it still be us after all this, including his so-called "pledge"? If so, he's not too swift on the uptake, is he? But I guess we should've realized that over five years ago, huh?

[Thomas MacWood]

TE & Wayne
Its not crime if you don't know the answer to the question. And if you don't want to answer the question or don't feel comfortable answering the question no one is forcing you...there's no reason to act like a couple rabid dogs.

Last I checked there were 1500 members on this site, including more than a few who have an interest in Flynn (including one fellow who has expressed an interest in writing a book on Flynn), its possible someone else might know.

[Jeff_Brauer]

"TePaul,
I think you have your Peters confused....I believe the guy who lived with Leeds was Fonda Peters."


Mr. Jeffrey Brauer, Sir:


For the life of me I cannot understand why you are playing the weisenheimer and joking around with this subject. Some on here think Leeds' sexual preferences and living arrangements are extremely important to the understanding of the design evolution of Myopia Hunt Club's wonderful golf course!

In case you aren't aware of it this is a website for expert researchers and this kind of research information is some pretty great shit.

Mr. Paul,

The great playwrite William (or is it "Willie" Shakespere" said that all the world is a comedy......or tragedy. I can never quite recall which.  In any event, its my esteemed opinion that humor is, indeed the best medicine, except when its bad humor, and then, I presume its bad medicine.  Mercy, I can think of some times when bad humor even fits the bill as good medicine.

Besides, how dost though know that I myself aren't an "expert researcher" and knew that Fonda Peters in fact, had a live in relationship with Leeds?  Did you know, that his great granddaughter, Maya, married a son of Carl Sagan, and became know as "Maya Peters-Sagan?"

I considered a MacWoodian ban on providing such information to you, but I feel Fonda would have wanted me to.  After all, he was a well known softie.

[DMoriarty]

Wayne

Ignore and ridicule all you like, but you may want to double check the Flynn family legend.  Your version again contradicts the historical record.

If the two of you do not want to productively participate in MacWood's threads then perhaps you should at least refrain from disrupting them.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

"Last I checked there were 1500 members on this site, including more than a few who have an interest in Flynn (including one fellow who has expressed an interest in writing a book on Flynn), its possible someone else might know."


True enough, Mr. MacWood, but if for whatever reason the rest of the other 1500 don't know it seems you and at least one other on here are more than capable of just making something up and trying to pass if off as fact.

[DMoriarty]

Tom MacWood,

Peters reportedly had done considerable work laying out golf courses prior to joining the military in 1917.  Any guesses as to which courses these might have been?   

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne & Tom Paul,

I've changed my mind and after reading all of the new, useful information on this thread I'm switching sides.

Did you guys know that Flynn generally took his morning constitution in the outhouse at Merion, instead of going in the privacy of his own home?   Why do you think that was?   Was his daughter aware of this??

The information is all there if you simply did your proper job as researchers.   Why have you been withholding this critical information from us all of these years??   What of the Flynn Dumping Legend?? 

Who knew a guy only 5'4" could provide such hearty dumps?   I sure didn't!

It's about time you guys come clean on all the dirt on Flynn you've been withholding.

Did you also know that Hugh Wilson had 4 (count 'em) household servants??

What were there names, and who were the cousins?   

And you are telling us that cousin Leroy wasn't a HUGE influence??!?!   

[Thomas MacWood]

David
There were three F & P advertisements that appeared in American Golfer in 1916 - March, September and October - and then nothing ever again (WWI?). Flynn or F & P design activities are a little sketchy during this brief period. Eagles Mere (added nine), Doylestown (new 9-hole course) and Harrisburg (?) were all apparently started in 1916, and have been attributed to Flynn. Those most likely would be the best bets, although I'm not too sure about Harrisburg. Its also possible Peters was involved in some solo efforts prior to 1916. Do you know if he worked for a Landscape Arch or Architectural firm, and where it was based?

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

I think your sarcasm and incredulity are misplaced.

"Flynn and Peters" advertised that they were golf architects and grass experts in 1916.   Are you not at all curious as to the basis of this claim?   

As for the irrelevant minutia, and petty game playing with the information, it originated in the first response to MacWood's question:

We know all about him, from his daytime job, to his political post to his friendship with Flynn.  However, some of the information came directly from Flynn's daughter.  I'm sure you will give that little consideration.  Sorry, but your gag order prevents us from answering your question.  Who else do you expect an answer from?  I'm sure you can locate his census records.  That should help.  It is all in the Flynn book and has been for several years.  If only you had a more recent version...but alas your troublesome use of the obsolete one denies you this access.  Patience and you can borrow the set from Dr. Hurdzan when it is finally published.  Or you could come to Merion GC and read all about it in the archives.  Why don't you?  I would enjoy meeting you.

I hope you don't mind me saying so, but your tolerance for irrelevant minutia seems largely dependent upon who is offering it up.

_________________________________________________

Tom MacWood,

Peters reportedly came to the Ardmore area in 1908 to start a landscaping business. (Wayne reports above that Peters came to Amherst in part to run a laundry business but the laundry business was owned by his wife's family, and it was being run by them prior to WWI.)

Given that he reportedly had formal training in landscape architecture, he very well could have been working on golf courses prior to his partnership with Flynn.  I have seen no references to him doing laying out golf courses with Flynn.   

Note that 'doing work laying out golf courses' did not necessarily mean that he was designing golf courses, but could very well mean that he was building them, or was involved in building them. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne

Ignore and ridicule all you like, but you may want to double check the Flynn family legend.  Your version again contradicts the historical record.

If the two of you do not want to productively participate in MacWood's threads then perhaps you should at least refrain from disrupting them.

Thanks.

Then who on earth would you two possibly goad into answering them?
 
Who on earth would know a thing about Mr. Peters than Wayne and Tom?   

Or, perhaps you're just hoping to carry on a duolouge together with Mr. MacWood without anyone challenging your constant assumptive inferences presented as historical fact?

I'm picturing you guys spending way too much time scouring every online searchable database of archival information and seeing the words "William Flynn" in a whole bunch of search engines.   

I seriously doubt that anyone will be mortified if the wonderful legend of the great architecture of Mr. Peters is omitted from the book on William Flynn's golf courses. 

I seriously doubt even the late Mr. Peters would object to the glaring historical omission of his wonderful architectural genius and accomplishments, but that's pure conjecture on my part, not historical fact. 

He's dead, he's left no written record on the matter, so we'll never know.   We can only guess, so let's call it what it is...total speculation.   

[Thomas MacWood]

David
Thats a good point about the wording. Do you know if Flynn and Peters had a history prior to their relocation in Philly?

[Mike_Cirba]

I have just found indisputable proof in a little-known but prominent personal journal kept by Lord Arse Achington in the 1910's (he was later shot to death by the entire citizenry of the country of Serbia, one of the primary causes of WWI) that makes absolutely clear that Flynn and Peters were perhaps the leading comedy duo of their generation, playing all of the top Vaudeville clubs from Scranton to Sheboygan.

It seems that they did their share of "laying out", but it was more in the form of showgirls, and later, flappers, and eventually, both of them inevitably falling for the same woman...a Miss Elisa Laydowne , that led to the splintering and eventual breakdown of their partnership.   It seems Flynn subsequently fell into all forms of debauchery leading to a suicide in the 30s, and Peters later gave up all hope on life as well, becoming a boring, long-winded, vapid, gun-toting Republican commissioner for a county in rural northcentral Pennsylvania.

However, in their prime, they were clearly that generation's Martin & Dean, Rowan & Martin, Tom & Dick, Cheech & Chong, George & Gracie, Stiller & Wilson, Ferrell & Reilly, MacWood & Moriarty, or Bush & Cheyney.

While their true story has been lost to history, and shamefully neglected by most comedic researchers, I'm encouraged to see at last a glimmer of hope here on GCA that the truth..after all of these years, and the perpetuation of other, clearly unworthy comedic legends, will finally come into the light of day.

[Thomas MacWood]

I have just found indisputable proof in a little-known but prominent personal journal kept by Lord Arse Achington in the 1910's (he was later shot to death by the entire citizenry of the country of Serbia, one of the primary causes of WWI) that makes absolutely clear that Flynn and Peters were perhaps the leading comedy duo of their generation, playing all of the top Vaudeville clubs from Scranton to Sheboygan.

It seems that they did their share of "laying out", but it was more in the form of showgirls, and later, flappers, and eventually, both of them inevitably falling for the same woman...a Miss Elisa Laydown , that led to the splintering and eventual breakdown of their partnership.   It seems Flynn subsequently fell into all forms of debauchery leading to a suicide in the 30s, and Peters later gave up all hope on life as well, becoming a boring, long-winded, vapid, gun-toting Republican commissioner for a county in rural northcentral Pennsylvania.

However, in their prime, they were clearly that generation's Martin & Dean, Rowan & Martin, Tom & Dick, Cheech & Chong, George & Gracie, Stiller & Wilson, Ferrell & Reilly, MacWood & Moriarty, or Bush & Cheyney.

While their true story has been lost to history, and shamefully neglected by most comedic researchers, I'm encouraged to see at last a glimmer of hope here on GCA that the truth..after all of these years, and the perpetuation of other, clearly unworthy comedic legends, will finally come into the light of day.

Mike
When did Flynn and Wilson begin collaborating?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

They clearly seem to have collaborated on the changes to Merion for the 1916 US Amateur and during the same time period, they also were both involved (along with Ab Smith) in significant revisions and seeming improvements to J. Franklin Meehan's North Hills Country Club.   

Their relationship at that time was not formal, but more of an interplay between a man well-loved and respected for his proven architectural knowledge and personal demeanor, and his immensely talented and almost univerally praised superintendent.  As you know, they later decided to become architectural partners in the early 20s, but that was never realized (beyond some collaboration on Marble Hall (today's Green Valley)) due to Wilson's untimely death.

Personally, I've seen no mention of Peters in any of the documentation of the time.   Perhaps like Howard Toomey, or Richard Francis, or Robert Lesley, or even Meehan, he was an engineer?

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

They clearly seem to have collaborated on the changes to Merion for the 1916 US Amateur and during the same time period, they also were both involved (along with Ab Smith) in significant revisions and seeming improvements to J. Franklin Meehan's North Hills Country Club.   

Is it clear? What do you base that on?

[DMoriarty]

TomM,

I have found no link between Peters and Flynn in Mass.  Peters' was from a somewhat prominent family in Lenox and attended college in Amherst, so they were on other sides of the state.   It is possible that they could have hooked up while Flynn was working after graduation, but I have no proof of this and Peters reportedly came to PA in 1908. 

Personally, I've seen no mention of Peters in any of the documentation of the time.   Perhaps like Howard Toomey, or Richard Francis, or Robert Lesley, or even Meehan, he was an engineer?

Advertisements list Peters and Flynn as if they were partners.  Isn't this documentation?   

Peters was not an engineer.  Before WWI he was reportedly well-known as a  landscape architect, forester and entomologist.  Plus, he reportedly had done considerable work work laying out golf courses.   He later became a prominent Blue Bell Boy. 

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

An advertisement is not documentation that they ever actually did anything together but place an advert.

There are a million reasons why they might never have gotten started together.   Perhaps one or the other had no cash to bring to the table for startup costs or they had a falling out personally? 

The documentation I'm referring to is Peters claim that he had vast experience in laying out golf courses.   I've been through much of the available written documentation about early Philly golf and see nothing.

Have you located any evidence of his involvement with any golf courses in Massachusetts?   

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

Strange they would advertise together as "golf architects" if they had never worked together, but I guess it is possible.    It doesn't sound like Flynn family legend supports your theory about an immediate falling out, given that Wayne claims that Flynn stood in for Peters at his wedding after Peters had departed for overseas in 1918, (While this is in all likelyhood apocryphal I don't doubt that they were friends.)

I think it is premature to conclude that there were not at all involved together working on the layouts of golf courses.   Likewise, I think it a mistake on your part to conclude that Peters had no involvement laying out courses just because you have not found any mention of his involvement.     

I have not found any reference to his involvement in the industry in Mass, but I wouldn't expect to. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Strange they would advertise together as "golf architects" if they had never worked together, but I guess it is possible.    It doesn't sound like Flynn family legend supports your theory about an immediate falling out, given that Wayne claims that Flynn stood in for Peters at his wedding after Peters had departed for overseas in 1918, (While this is in all likelyhood apocryphal I don't doubt that they were friends.)

I think it is premature to conclude that there were not at all involved together working on the layouts of golf courses.   Likewise, I think it a mistake on your part to conclude that Peters had no involvement laying out courses just because you have not found any mention of his involvement.     

I have not found any reference to his involvement in the industry in Mass, but I wouldn't expect to. 

David,

Perhaps Peters went off to WWI, or perhaps course-building took a slight holiday during the war?

In any case, I have a tough time elevating Peters as a golf architect until I see some documented finding of what he actually architected.   

I think it's interesting that Flynn would have temporarily partnered with him; I just don't have the foggiest what they might have done together on the ground, if anything.

The written record certainly doesn't shed any light that I've seen.

[Thomas MacWood]

I think it's interesting that Flynn would have temporarily partnered with him; I just don't have the foggiest what they might have done together on the ground, if anything.

The written record certainly doesn't shed any light that I've seen.

Mike
Flynn & Peters advertised their partnership in 1916. We believe Flynn was involved with Eagles Mere, Doylestown and Harrisburg in 1916. Wouldn't that be the logical place to look for their work together?After this brief excursion into design I don't believe Flynn got back into it until the early 20s. What is the explanation for this period of inactivity?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Could it have been World War I?   Reports that I've read from that time seem to indicate a very concerted war effort put together quickly, and golf course building taking a bit of a hiatus.

I've seen nothing in any literature around any of those courses that mentions Peters.   I'm not sure what to make of the guy, but one would logically assume that something might be written somewhere if he was indeed a design partner.

I'm not saying it didn't happen or doesn't exist.   I'm only saying that I've never read anything about Peters that would confirm it.

[wsmorrison]

There wasn't as much of a hiatus for Flynn as represented.   Flynn left his job at Merion for war service at Bethlehem Steel in 1917.   Joe Valentine was appointed his temporary replacement.  After his war service, Flynn returned as head green keeper for Merion's East and West courses.

In 1918, Flynn was splitting his time at both Merion and Pine Valley in the green keeping role.  Pine Valley suffered almost complete agronomic failure and Flynn worked there for several months. 

Flynn restarted his design business in 1919 with his work at Washington Golf and Country Club.  Flynn was hired to do the redesign and design work at Lancaster CC, which would reopen in 1920.  The club referred to Flynn as “a golf architect of the highest standing, and considered the best man in the country on constructing greens.” 

The quality of his construction work was employed at Westchester Biltmore, now Westchester CC, where he constructed the course according to Travis's plans.  Subsequently, he did some redesign work there as well.  Also in 1920, Flynn worked on the redesign and design of Pocono Manor.

In 1921, Flynn worked on the completion of the last 4 holes at Pine Valley, the design of Town and Country (NLE), the redesign of Columbia CC,  and the design for a second course at Inverness that never came about.

In 1922, Flynn worked on the irrigation plan and some design and redesign work at Bala CC, the redesign of Glen View Club, the design of the 9 hole Monroe CC near the Tappan Zee and the redesign of North Hills CC.

1923 proved to be Flynn's busiest season.  He designed Kittansett, redesigned Atlantic City CC, designed Brinton Lake Club (now Concord CC), Cascades, Cherry Hills, additional work at Columbia CC, Denver CC, Friendship Club, Yorktown CC Lake and River Courses, the design and redesign of Philadelphia Electric (now McCall Field) and the redesign of the 1st hole at Huntingdon Valley's course in Noble, PA.
 

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

Could it have been World War I?   Reports that I've read from that time seem to indicate a very concerted war effort put together quickly, and golf course building taking a bit of a hiatus.

Obviously that is the case. F&P only advertised between March and October 1916. And Peters inlisted in 1917.

I've seen nothing in any literature around any of those courses that mentions Peters.   I'm not sure what to make of the guy, but one would logically assume that something might be written somewhere if he was indeed a design partner.

Have you seen any contemporaneous reports that mentions Flynn with those courses? I haven't. In fact I have my doubts about their involvement at Harrisburg that early. I believe Flynn worked there in the late 20s.

I'm not saying it didn't happen or doesn't exist.   I'm only saying that I've never read anything about Peters that would confirm it.

If they were partners in 1916 it is logical to assume they worked on those two or three courses together, and illogical to assume the opposite. In 1917 it is reported Peters has done considerable work in laying out courses. I have not read anything that early that reports Flynn was laying out anything that early (other that the ad). Have you? Based on the ads, the short window those courses were made, the interuption of the war, everything points to F&P as the architects as opposed to Flynn as solo artist.

[Thomas MacWood]

There wasn't as much of a hiatus for Flynn as represented. 

Wayne
How long of a hiatus as been represented?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I'm not sure you can have it both ways;   either Flynn designed courses by 1916 (which you claim you doubt) or Peters never did anything with Flynn during their six-month advertised partnership...

I've not done direct research on the courses in question (Harrisburg, Doylestown, et.al.), but accounts I've seen simply mention Flynn.

My point is that I've not seen Peters name in a single account of the time, and I've gone through everything that Wayne and Joe Bausch respectively have unearthed from that time period, which is a VERY substantial amount of documentation.

Has your Boston research uncovered any mention of Peters working on any courses in that region?   Their is simply no skin on those bones in the Philly region and I'd be curious what you've learned.

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