[wsmorrison]

There wasn't as much of a hiatus for Flynn as represented. 

Wayne
How long of a hiatus as been represented?

You said it. 

Mike
Flynn & Peters advertised their partnership in 1916. We believe Flynn was involved with Eagles Mere, Doylestown and Harrisburg in 1916. Wouldn't that be the logical place to look for their work together?After this brief excursion into design I don't believe Flynn got back into it until the early 20s. What is the explanation for this period of inactivity?

I disagree that the period of inactivity is as long as you suggest.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

I'm not sure you can have it both ways;   either Flynn designed courses by 1916 (which you claim you doubt) or Peters never did anything with Flynn during their six-month advertised partnership...

Both ways? You are the one that keeps claiming you haven't seen any written documentation Peters did any design work circa 1916. But when asked if you've found anything written about Flynn's activities during this same period you have no response. It doesn't appear you are being consistant in your analysis; you're using a double standard.

I've not done direct research on the courses in question (Harrisburg, Doylestown, et.al.), but accounts I've seen simply mention Flynn.

Modern accounts? I have seen good Doylestown and Eagles Mere undertook design/redesign work in 1916. So it is plausable Flynn or Peters or Flynn & Peters were involved. Harrisburg is questionable IMO.

My point is that I've not seen Peters name in a single account of the time, and I've gone through everything that Wayne and Joe Bausch respectively have unearthed from that time period, which is a VERY substantial amount of documentation.

Again, have you found any accounts of Flynn being accociated with any designs during the same period? Apparently not.

Has your Boston research uncovered any mention of Peters working on any courses in that region?   Their is simply no skin on those bones in the Philly region and I'd be curious what you've learned.

I have not, but thats not totally suprising since Peters was from Lenox, which is on the Mass-NY border in western Mass. There is some skin...there are those ads in American Golfer.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

As mentioned, I did NO primary research specifically on William Flynn so I wouldn't know.

Also, If Peters deserves credit for something he wasn't given, I've not come across proof of that in my Philly golf research;  in fact, I've never seen his name mentioned.

If there is something he did I have no reason at all to hide or obfuscate that information....more power to him if he did...perhaps he was another part of the collaborative Philadelphia School of Design?   I just have never heard his name mentioned, nor has Joe Bausch, and Joe has dug more mines in early Philly golf than virtually anyone.

[Thomas MacWood]

There wasn't as much of a hiatus for Flynn as represented.   Flynn left his job at Merion for war service at Bethlehem Steel in 1917.   Joe Valentine was appointed his temporary replacement.  After his war service, Flynn returned as head green keeper for Merion's East and West courses.

No golf architecture work during this period.

In 1918, Flynn was splitting his time at both Merion and Pine Valley in the green keeping role.  Pine Valley suffered almost complete agronomic failure and Flynn worked there for several months. 

No golf architecture work during this period.

Flynn restarted his design business in 1919 with his work at Washington Golf and Country Club.  Flynn was hired to do the redesign and design work at Lancaster CC, which would reopen in 1920.  The club referred to Flynn as “a golf architect of the highest standing, and considered the best man in the country on constructing greens.” 

Washington G&CC began reconstructing their course in 1922, the work was completed in the spring of 1923. Lancaster purchased additional land in 1920. The second nine was not ready until late 1921 or early 1922.

The quality of his construction work was employed at Westchester Biltmore, now Westchester CC, where he constructed the course according to Travis's plans.  Subsequently, he did some redesign work there as well.  Also in 1920, Flynn worked on the redesign and design of Pocono Manor.

I would differentiate construction from design or redesign work. Are you certain Flynn was involved with redesign work at Pocono Manor in the early 20s - what do you base that upon?

In 1921, Flynn worked on the completion of the last 4 holes at Pine Valley, the design of Town and Country (NLE), the redesign of Columbia CC,  and the design for a second course at Inverness that never came about.

Again, if in fact Flynn was involved at PV it was in a construction capacity. Town & Country was designed in 1921 and ready in late 1922 (early 20s). The Columbia plan in your Flynn article is dated 1924 (early 20s).

In 1922, Flynn worked on the irrigation plan and some design and redesign work at Bala CC, the redesign of Glen View Club, the design of the 9 hole Monroe CC near the Tappan Zee and the redesign of North Hills CC.

1923 proved to be Flynn's busiest season.  He designed Kittansett, redesigned Atlantic City CC, designed Brinton Lake Club (now Concord CC), Cascades, Cherry Hills, additional work at Columbia CC, Denver CC, Friendship Club, Yorktown CC Lake and River Courses, the design and redesign of Philadelphia Electric (now McCall Field) and the redesign of the 1st hole at Huntingdon Valley's course in Noble, PA.

All these courses are from the early 20s, so I guess I don't get your point. Please explain how I misrepresented the situation?
 

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

As mentioned, I did NO primary research specifically on William Flynn so I wouldn't know.

Also, If Peters deserves credit for something he wasn't given, I've not come across proof of that in my Philly golf research;  in fact, I've never seen his name mentioned.

If there is something he did I have no reason at all to hide or obfuscate that information....more power to him if he did...perhaps he was another part of the collaborative Philadelphia School of Design?   I just have never heard his name mentioned, nor has Joe Bausch, and Joe has dug more mines in early Philly golf than virtually anyone.

Mike
You have reseached Philadelphia golf history, have you not? The fact that you or Joe have not found mention of Flynn during this period is equally significant IMO. One of the reasons could be that fact that the courses mentioned were not in Philadelphia.  Based upon what we do know of Peters' military service and later career, his design activity was clearly short lived, which could also explain why there is little info to be found on him in print.

I'm not so much interested in giving Peters design credit, as I am in accurately documenting Flynn's early architectural career, which is this case includes his brief partnership with Peters. Who knows what infleunce he may have had. Peters was a landscape architect...is it possible some of Flynn ideas were influenced by landscape architectural principals?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

If they were, they would have also likely come from J. Franklin Meehan, who was friends with Hugh Wilson.   I posted something here about Meehan a few weeks back about his "natural blending" theories but perhaps you missed it.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom M,
I am very hesitant to get involved in any of these Flynn debates for obvious reasons, but I will say that I know Flynn did work at Pocono Manor.  I have done quite a bit of research on that course for a Master Plan that Robert McNeil and I have been working on for the golf course (project is now awaiting permit approvals not to mention time for the real estate market to cycle back).  We have copies of the drawings Flynn prepared (they match up quite well with what was built).  I think Wayne or myself posted a few examples sometime ago.  It is a long story, but I have been working with a consulting firm hired by the property that does historical site registration/preservation.  It is quite interesting what all goes on with that process.  One thing I will tell you is that there are both pros and cons to getting registered as an historically significant site.  Not sure I would recommend it for those thinking about it    
Mark

[Thomas MacWood]

Mark
What year did Flynn make the plans for Pocono Manor?

[Mark_Fine]

1920

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Flynn began his work at Washington GCC in 1919.  If you don't believe so, so be it.

Mark is correct as I stated earlier.  Flynn began his work at Pocono Manor in 1920. 

Flynn began his design work at Lancaster CC in 1920.  Believe it or not.

Flynn's first work at Pine Valley was limited to agronomic work.  I stated that very clearly.  Are you sure that Flynn's work at Pine Valley in the early 1920s was limited to construction work?  He certainly did design work there in later years.

There are other Columbia CC drawings not in the article from 1923.  Correspondence indicates that he was working there in 1921 and apparently for Marshall at Inverness as well. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
You might want re-check your facts. I don't doubt Flynn and/or Wilson were at Washington G&CC in 1919, but the fact remains the redesign of the course did not take place until 1922 and opened in 1923.

Is 1920 in the early 20s? Pocono Manor's new nine opened in 1922 and Lancaster's new nine was not ready until 1922.

It is well documented Alison was called in at PV in 1921 - some of his plans are in Shackelford's latest book. I don't know if Flynn was involved PV's construction, much less its design.

What did Flynn do at Columbia in 1921, and isn't 1921 in the early 20s?

Mark
The plans are dated 1920? Are you sure about that?

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

If they were, they would have also likely come from J. Franklin Meehan, who was friends with Hugh Wilson.   I posted something here about Meehan a few weeks back about his "natural blending" theories but perhaps you missed it.

Meehan? Interesting. Have you found that Meehan and Flynn were associated at some point?

[Mike_Cirba]

Not in any formal way Tom, but I can't imagine they didn't know each other well.

Meehan was already one of the most prominent architectural landscapers in the country before 1910 (as was his father), had started his own club and designed the holes in 1909 (Edge Hill CC, which later became North Hills), and was named along with Crump, Carr, Smith, et.al. by Robert Lesley in 1915 to a committee assigned to creating the first public golf course in Philadelphia.

He was also seemingly friends with Wilson and Ab Smith, as they helped him with some significant redesign work at North Hills, and I believe Flynn was also involved, although I forget the details.  You might ask Wayne.

[wsmorrison]

I don't need to recheck my facts, Tom.  Thanks for the suggestion though.

Mike C,

Why should he ask me, Mike?  He doesn't believe anything anyone says, especially from this area.  I guess he needs to find out on his own, which makes all these question threads of his strange indeed.  However, yes, Flynn was involved with the redesign of North Hills.  If I were considering Flynn's design collaborations, no need to start with Peters.  Hugh Wilson is the one to consider first and foremost.

[Thomas MacWood]

"After this brief excursion into design [Flynn & Peters in 1916] I don't believe Flynn got back into it until the early 20s."

Wayne
That is what I wrote. This entire stupid episode is due to the fact that you objected to that statement, and then when questioned, you tried to support your objection with Flynn's design activities in the early 1920s. Pretty strange if you ask me.

While I would agree that Flynn's relationship with Wilson is likely the most important one, I don't believe sweeping Peters (or Toomey for that matter) under the rug would be wise. We know quite a bit about Wilson and Flynn, and next to nothing about Peters (or Toomey)....hence the reason for this thread, and I must say some good information has been uncovered.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

What is strange is that you don't see desgning in 1919 as being earlier than the early 1920s.

Please do not distort everything I say with false comments such as that I am sweeping Peters or Toomey under the rug.  I have done no such thing.  I do not believe that Toomey did any design work at all.  David Gordon said so.  Flynn's daughter said so.  Toomey was a partner in Toomey and Flynn, a contracting engineer firm.  Flynn alone was paid as a designer.  Neither Gordon, Lawrence or Wilson, all who would become accomplished architects did any design work while working for Toomey and Flynn.  They worked on the construction side of the business.  Not the design business.  Of course, you don't believe me and you want nothing more than to prove me wrong.  That explains your approach.

We know that Peters and Flynn were in 3 advertisements selling golf standards and representing themselves as golf architects and grass experts.  I have documentation discussing Flynn's efforts in turf grass experiments and implementation at this time.  He was regarded early on as one of America's outstanding course construction men and an expert agronomist.  He was the celebrated green keeper at Merion and Pine Valley.  There is no question that Flynn, for his part, had the credentials to represent himself as a turf expert.  Now MacWood might have us believe that Flynn was not a competent architect at this time.  He doesn't think it likely Flynn was involved with Kilkare and he doesn't think he was involved with Harrisburg.  I guess he's back to his old habit of suggesting that Flynn, like Leeds and Wilson before him, did not have enough expertise to design golf courses at the stage we are discussing here.  Is he saying that Peters was?  I don't know.  As far as I can tell he has no evidence that links Peters to any design work at all.  I believe he worked with Flynn on some of the earliest courses Flynn was associated with in Pennsylvania.  I believe Wilson contributed in some capacity as well.  What evidence is there that Peters was an accomplished landscape designer?

Your idea of good information and mine is not the same.

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

Speaking WAY off the top of my head, was it Tilly (I can't remember the reference exactly) when writing about Merion and the turf problem's, that said that Flynn, along with Macdonald and someone else whose name escapes me, were considered the three best turf experts in the world?

I believe this was about 1913... I'll see if I can find it...

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

What is strange is that you don't see desgning in 1919 as being earlier than the early 1920s.

Please do not distort everything I say with false comments such as that I am sweeping Peters or Toomey under the rug.  I have done no such thing.  I do not believe that Toomey did any design work at all.  David Gordon said so.  Flynn's daughter said so.  Toomey was a partner in Toomey and Flynn, a contracting engineer firm.  Flynn alone was paid as a designer.  Neither Gordon, Lawrence or Wilson, all who would become accomplished architects did any design work while working for Toomey and Flynn.  They worked on the construction side of the business.  Not the design business.  Of course, you don't believe me and you want nothing more than to prove me wrong.  That explains your approach.

We know that Peters and Flynn were in 3 advertisements selling golf standards and representing themselves as golf architects and grass experts.  I have documentation discussing Flynn's efforts in turf grass experiments and implementation at this time.  He was regarded early on as one of America's outstanding course construction men and an expert agronomist.  He was the celebrated green keeper at Merion and Pine Valley.  There is no question that Flynn, for his part, had the credentials to represent himself as a turf expert.  Now MacWood might have us believe that Flynn was not a competent architect at this time.  He doesn't think it likely Flynn was involved with Kilkare and he doesn't think he was involved with Harrisburg.  I guess he's back to his old habit of suggesting that Flynn, like Leeds and Wilson before him, did not have enough expertise to design golf courses at the stage we are discussing here.  Is he saying that Peters was?  I don't know.  As far as I can tell he has no evidence that links Peters to any design work at all.  I believe he worked with Flynn on some of the earliest courses Flynn was associated with in Pennsylvania.  I believe Wilson contributed in some capacity as well.  What evidence is there that Peters was an accomplished landscape designer?

Your idea of good information and mine is not the same.

Wayne
When was the redesign of Washington G&CC completed?

You have to admit your Kilkare info is all screwed up. It is extremely unlikely Flynn designed Kilkare; everything points to Findlay.

Why do you become so defensive? Exploring Peters and Toomey will not diminish Flynn. This is the same kind of reaction we saw from you and TE at PV and Merion. The truth is always more interesting than your preconcieved notion of it.

[TEPaul]

"It is well documented Alison was called in at PV in 1921 - some of his plans are in Shackelford's latest book. I don't know if Flynn was involved PV's construction, much less its design."

Actually Alison's first connection with the "finalization" work of the Pine Valley for the committee charged with putting the course in shape and finishing the final four holes may've been with Hugh Wilson in November, 1920. Alison produced a fairly comprehensive hole by hole plan and the committee voted up or down each individual recommendation (with some being tabled for later consideration). However, for the work of carrying out the plan of finishing off the course Flynn seems to have been involved with Crump's pro and foreman Jim Govan. The club probably would've gotten Alison to oversee it but he was not around at that point. Architectural work at Pine Valley known to be Flynn's was the fixing of the fronts (bunkering) of #2, #18 and probably #10 all of which had the same problem.

Mr. MacWood, who did what and when at Pine Valley is well documented so it doesn't matter to the architectural history of the course if you don't know something about it. If you don't choose to believe anyone as to what happened I'm sure you too can spend the years on researching it some of us have---most all the information is there in one way or another.

By the way, it's too bad you never took John Ott up on his offer which he asked me about first. It's certainly too late for that now, very unfortunately.

[wsmorrison]

Toomey did zero design work.  How is that defensive?  Do you have a picture of Toomey?  I cannot find one anywhere.

As for Peters, he was involved in some capacity.  However it is unknown at this point...at least to me.  How is that defensive?

I'm sticking with Flynn designing Kilkare.  Clearly not everything points to Findlay.  Flynn told his daughter he designed it.  But you don't believe a word she says.  However, if you present unequivocal information that indicates Findlay, I'll be happy to revise.  But if your surmise is based upon Findlay being an experienced architect at the time and Flynn being a novice, I'll gladly dismiss that.  It is the same tired methodology you used at Pine Valley (you were wrong), Merion (you both are wrong) and Myopia (I have no idea if you are wrong or not).

As for preconceived truths, I'd say you and your protege have cornered the market.  

[TEPaul]

"Why do you become so defensive? Exploring Peters and Toomey will not diminish Flynn. This is the same kind of reaction we saw from you and TE at PV and Merion. The truth is always more interesting than your preconcieved notion of it."

Mr. MacWood:

Calling us defensive on most of the things we say to you seems to be your automatic response. We aren't defensive about anything and never have been. It's simply a matter of us correcting your implications and suggestions that in almost every instance seem to be massive exaggerations. We just don't think massively exaggerating the input or influence of various people is accurate architectural history. You've done this with Colt and Pine Valley in the past, with Merion with Barker and Macdonald/Whigam and with Myopia with Campbell. It looks like you're angling to do it again with Peters and whatever. You may call these things the truth in whatever logic you use, but we do not. We see them as real exaggerations, that is unless you are able to support your implications and suggestions with something---which to date on all these courses and architects you never have. All of these research campaigns of yours seem to fall into the context of what you call finding out the inaccuracies behind people and courses you call "legends". We didn't buy that angle of yours five years ago and we aren't buying it now. I think very, very few are at this point and that should be somewhat indicative to you, don't you think?

I think we all on here and elsewhere do understand that you have been trying, and for years, to present yourself as some expert researcher/writer. Hopefully in the future you can find a far better way of going about doing that than you have in the past, particularly with us here in Philadelphia! 

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
There's no reason to be so defensive. The fact is there has been a good number of new discoveries in the last few years that you & Wayne have faught tooth and nail. I'm not sure what it is about your attitudes...it appears you are emotionally invested in some of these legends and have hard time with any adjustments to the story. The truth is always more interesting than you preconcieved notion of it.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
You are going to base Flynn designing Kilkare on his daughter's word? You choose to igonore all the other facts she got wrong?

[wsmorrison]

Enough, Tom MacWood.  I am not ignoring anything nor am I only basing the design attribution on his daughter's word.  She related hours worth of facts of which you remain completely unaware.  Therefore, you are completely unaware of what she did provide that has been corroborated.    What are you basing Findlay's attribution on?

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
Go back and read the first few pages of the other thread. For whatever reason you were no where to be found when Kilkare was being discussed.

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