[Dennis_Harwood]

The USGA announced that it will advance the tees on the Third hole at Pinehurst No. 2 for match play to a distance of 336 yards (it played at 385 for qualifying)--

We did a similar thing at the SCGA Match play event played at Sandpiper (Goleta, CA) advancing the tees for some of the match play rounds on both #7 and #10 to a 335-340 distance (making the holes drivable, with a high degree of risk if the green was not hit)-- 

The players loved the set up for match play-- and it created dramatic swings in some matches.

With what the USGA did at Torrey, advancing the tees on some of the rounds, I think we will see more and more of this for high profile events, and especially at match play events.

[John Moore II]

I had heard as early as a week ago from Paul Jett that they were intending to do this. I am glad to see it happening. Given the boys something fun to do in a match play event.

[Rich Goodale]

Dennis

Last week at the Carnegie Shield at Dornoch they played the "normal" Championship course in Qualifying and then moved several tees (2, 10, 11, and 15) back to their maximum on the second day of Match Play, and it worked superbly.

Isn't the issue not about "advancement" or "retreat" but rather change?  I thought that the Hawthorne experiments of nearly 100 years ago proved that behavio(u)r after change is influenced more by the fact of discontinuity than by the nature or vector of what has been done.

Rich

[JESII]

Rich,

I would agree with that last sentence...also, see Tiger laying up on the hole at Torrey that was shortened to 265...would ha have laid up on a 265 par 3 played at max distance?

[JohnV]

I'm refereeing the next to  last match today and will tell you how they play it.

It wasn't used for stroke  play for obvious pace of play reasons.

[Sean Leary]

Jim S,

Your point is exactly why par matters, imo.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim S,

Your point is exactly why par matters, imo.

That does illustrate the effect that par has, for sure.

But my take remains that it SHOULDN'T matter, and for the smart player, doesn't.

Tiger would know that 280 wins the tournament, not even par or -4.

He would base his decisions on the score he needed at the time.  If the majority of the field was making threes on the hole, and he needed a three to keep up with the field, or his direct competitors in the final round, it might change his club decision.  But this wouldn't be a decision based on the PAR of the hole, but rather the competitive situation.  Tiger is far far far too smart of a player to let the par of the hole determine his club choice.

Put it this way, if it's the first round and they call that a 267 yard par 3, Tiger still lays up, I believe - for all the reasons he stated as to why he laid up in the final round at the Open.  The shot to the green was far too low percentage and didn't fit his club distances.  I really believe that thinking does NOT change if they call it a par 3.

BUT... maybe so... because he'd know that it would effect the choice of many other less smart players.

It's a very interesting topic anyway, one we've covered many times in here.  I firmly agree that to most players, par does matter - big time.  My argument has always been that to the smart players, it shouldn't matter at all.

TH

[Kevin_Reilly]

Question for tournament players -- Given that this is the third hole, under what circumstances would you go for the green in match play if a) you have the honor or b) you don't. 

It would seem to me that the only time you would in almost all cases go for it (assuming you are capable of hitting it long enough) is if your opponent had the honor and put his shot on the green and has a chance at an eagle putt. 

I can't think of a compelling reason to go for it if you have the honor, at least this early in the match.  Unless there is a "consolation prize" around the green like a playable bunker shot if your tee shot fails to find the putting surface (that is the case at the 7th green at Olympic if the pin is anywhere but the back tier...you can go for the green (288 yds) and still manage to preserve a birdie opportunity from the bunker if you don't get all the way to the surface).

[Sean Leary]

Huck,

Let me give you an example of myself. I was playing Capilano two weeks ago, a course I had never played before. The 10th hole is a tough hole 465 ish, uphill, and I block my drive a bit to the right into the trees. I have 200ish, playing 225.  I have just made 6 pars in a row. I have some branches between myself and the green, so to get there, I figure I have to hit a big cut 3 wood to get to the green or greenside to make par. I of course hit it dead straight through some trees, and end up on 11 fairway.  Got lucky, had an open shot, hit it on the green, two putted for my bogey.  Find out on the next tee that it was a par 5. If I knew it was a par five, I would have layed up and punched out (which I had done on the first hole in a similar situation, being a short par 5). Par mattered.

To your point, the moral of the story is I'm not smart. But you knew that already.

But I think Tiger doesn't lay up with 6 iron (or whatever he hit) on day 1 of the open at 267. He may lay up to hit something just short of greenside, but no way he lays that far back, smart or not smart.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kevin:

I am not a tournament player, but I sometimes pretend to be one.

I do not know the Pinehurst hole at all.  But that never stopped me.  But my thinking would also require answers to the following questions:

1. How does the match stand?
2.  Is my opponent a big bomber?  How realistic is it that HE can reach the green?
3.  What is around the green - ie what actual risk is involved?
4.  How am I feeling and playing?  Is my wedge game solid?  Is my driving?

All of that will determine the choice for me.  And as you can see, that's three questions about the golfers or the match, only one about the golf hole.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

Let me give you an example of myself. I was playing Capilano two weeks ago, a course I had never played before. The 10th hole is a tough hole 465 ish, uphill, and I block my drive a bit to the right into the trees. I have 200ish, playing 225.  I have just made 6 pars in a row. I have some branches between myself and the green, so to get there, I figure I have to hit a big cut 3 wood to get to the green or greenside to make par. I of course hit it dead straight through some trees, and end up on 11 fairway.  Got lucky, had an open shot, hit it on the green, two putted for my bogey.  Find out on the next tee that it was a par 5. If I knew it was a par five, I would have layed up and punched out (which I had done on the first hole in a similar situation, being a short par 5). Par mattered.

To your point, the moral of the story is I'm not smart. But you knew that already.

But I think Tiger doesn't lay up with 6 iron (or whatever he hit) on day 1 of the open at 267. He may lay up to hit something just short of greenside, but no way he lays that far back, smart or not smart.

You answered that in the moral of your story.   

I think it also depends on WHY one is playing.  If it's just a kick around round with friends, then hell yes par matters more - you want the birdie.. that can also win bets, etc.  You play as you say in your post.  But if it's the US Open - or some other serious competition - well... I think the equation changes.  You play to make the best numerical SCORE, not a birdie or par or bogey.

And that is why I believe that if that hole at TP is 267 in round one - no matter what they call the par - Tiger still lays up, to his best wedge distance.  He assesses his best chance to make a 3 and plays for that.  The only way it changes is if the wind changes or something else makes the going for the green shot more doable.

TH

[Kevin_Reilly]

1. How does the match stand?

Anywhere from all square to up or down 2.  It is the third hole (let's skip for now the situation for the 36 hole matches or some horrific result like you discovered you or he has 15 clubs in your bag).

2.  Is my opponent a big bomber?  How realistic is it that HE can reach the green?

If he is, is he likely to go for it if you've hit a good layup?

3.  What is around the green - ie what actual risk is involved?

Yes, I'd like to know the same.  I mentioned the bunkers at Olympic #7 that prevent a really bad outcome.

4.  How am I feeling and playing?  Is my wedge game solid?  Is my driving?

Yes, everything is solid...you are in match play of the US Am!!!!

[Sean_A]

Kevin:

I am not a tournament player, but I sometimes pretend to be one.

I do not know the Pinehurst hole at all.  But that never stopped me.  But my thinking would also require answers to the following questions:

1. How does the match stand?
2.  Is my opponent a big bomber?  How realistic is it that HE can reach the green?
3.  What is around the green - ie what actual risk is involved?
4.  How am I feeling and playing?  Is my wedge game solid?  Is my driving?

All of that will determine the choice for me.  And as you can see, that's three questions about the golfers or the match, only one about the golf hole.

TH

AwsHuckster

I agree with you completely.  People are totally bamboozled by the concept of par - especially as most people are nowhere near scratch players!  I am not a smart player at all because I enjoy the "go for it" attitude too much, but that has nothing to do with par and everything to do with fun.  Now, if conditions are bad and I am on a tough course I have come much more to the realization that playing to the fat part of the fairway and worrying about the next shot when I come to it is smart for me.  Again, this has little to do with par or even trying to score as low as possible.  It has much more to do with not wanting to look for balls.  The older I get the more I object to ball hunting.

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Kevin:

Aha, so we are delving in fantasy (me playing in USAm).  I was trying to relate this to my own reality.  I have no answers as I surely cannot relate to how those guys play.  You need Andrew Biggadike or Matt Cohn or Jamie Slonis or the like.

BUT.. if you are willing to put this in my reality... let's say it's the Santa Teresa club championship, and they've moved up #3 up to 280 yards.  Perhaps you know the hole.. some here might.  OB right, road.  Trees right blocking this somewhat.  Slight dog leg right.  Bunker 40 yards short of green on right, then another greenside.  Trees and some bad rough left, with another greenside bunker left side. Street OB comes in close to the green on right.

Here's the thinking for me:

1.  First question regards who I am playing.  If he has no chance to make it that changes everything.  Let's say he's a strong player and a straight 280 yard drive through a 15 yard wide gap (or a 280 carry) is realistic for him.  In that case...

2.  On the one hand I don't want to let him breathe - I want to get him down and keep him down.  So it's rather tempting to go for the green and then when I succeed let him hang himself.  However, it's a pretty small gap to run one on, and that would be required for me.  Worst thing is I hit it OB or in trees and give him an opening.   SO... I'm pretty sure if I am up at all, I lay one out there to 80 yards or so (best wedge distance for me) and let him take the risk.

3.  The equation changes if I am down, particularly 2 down.  In that case he'll have the honor and the only way I don't go for it is if he hits a crappy tee shot.

Note I assume the risks around #3 Pinehurst are more than those at Santa Teresa!  But this is how I see it playing out for me.  It's all about the match and my opponent and my game.  Of course if the risks on a hole are such that it's a very very low percentage of ever reaching the green, then it would take a lot to take on that risk... I'm with you... even two down at that point, low percentage means low percentage, can't see doing it.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Kevin:

I am not a tournament player, but I sometimes pretend to be one.

I do not know the Pinehurst hole at all.  But that never stopped me.  But my thinking would also require answers to the following questions:

1. How does the match stand?
2.  Is my opponent a big bomber?  How realistic is it that HE can reach the green?
3.  What is around the green - ie what actual risk is involved?
4.  How am I feeling and playing?  Is my wedge game solid?  Is my driving?

All of that will determine the choice for me.  And as you can see, that's three questions about the golfers or the match, only one about the golf hole.

TH

AwsHuckster

I agree with you completely.  People are totally bamboozled by the concept of par - especially as most people are nowhere near scratch players!  I am not a smart player at all because I enjoy the "go for it" attitude too much, but that has nothing to do with par and everything to do with fun.  Now, if conditions are bad and I am on a tough course I have come much more to the realization that playing to the fat part of the fairway and worrying about the next shot when I come to it is smart for me.  Again, this has little to do with par or even trying to score as low as possible.  It has much more to do with not wanting to look for balls.  The older I get the more I object to ball hunting.

Ciao

Sean A - just do understand that these equations only factor in for me in competition or some other round where score or match MATTERS.  If it's just playing the game with buddies - which makes up most of my golf - then hell yes I too live to go for it - life is too short not to and layups are rarely any fun.  I don't like looking for golf balls either, but my answer there is to just NOT DO SO in iffy situations.  I have lots of golf balls and lesser amounts of patience.

TH

[Steve Kline]

You are approaching the match play/going for the green situation wrong. I don't think you should react to your opponent or what they might or might not do. You have to figure out what is the best way for YOU to make the best score possible on the hole. If you are good, long driver with a good short game you go for it. If you are shaky with the driver but have a great wedge game from 90-120 yards you lay up. Sometimes pin consideration and the ease of the up and down for a missed drive needs to be factored in. Also, you have to consider how well certain parts of your game are functioning at that time. For instance, going for the green at the 3rd hole of #2 and missing left is not good. So, if all your misses are going left maybe you don't go for it. You also have to consider your personality on the course - do you perform better playing conservatively or aggressively. But going for it for the sole reason that  your opponent knocked it on the green is generally a bad idea.

[Tom Huckaby]

You are approaching the match play/going for the green situation wrong. I don't think you should react to your opponent or what they might or might not do. You have to figure out what is the best way for YOU to make the best score possible on the hole. If you are good, long driver with a good short game you go for it. If you are shaky with the driver but have a great wedge game from 90-120 yards you lay up. Sometimes pin consideration and the ease of the up and down for a missed drive needs to be factored in. Also, you have to consider how well certain parts of your game are functioning at that time. For instance, going for the green at the 3rd hole of #2 and missing left is not good. So, if all your misses are going left maybe you don't go for it. You also have to consider your personality on the course - do you perform better playing conservatively or aggressively. But going for it for the sole reason that  your opponent knocked it on the green is generally a bad idea.

Steve - see my first set of questions to Kevin - that's a HUGE part of it for sure - in fact damn near all of it, I'd say.  I don't disagree with a word you write.

I would just add however that status of the match, or what my opponent can or can't do - does and should factor in.  It's about beating him as much as it is about minimizing my own score.  OH, the latter does tend to take care of the former... but still... ignoring the former isn't all that great of an idea either.

TH

[Kevin_Reilly]

But going for it for the sole reason that  your opponent knocked it on the green is generally a bad idea.

What if your opponent has a 10 ft putt for two?

[Mike Benham]

The USGA announced ...

Why is the USGA compelled to announce the shortening of the hole?  Are the also providing the hole locations (prior to the morning of) for the days that they will be shortening the hole?

Why not surprise the players ...

[Steve Kline]

But going for it for the sole reason that  your opponent knocked it on the green is generally a bad idea.

What if your opponent has a 10 ft putt for two?

How often are 10 foot putts made? 40% of the time? I don't know what the Tour average is but it's not as how as you would think? I still think you only go for it if you are capable of and comfortable with the shot not because your opponent hit it close. Otherwise you are more likely to screw up. If it goes against your abilities/typical strategy you are more than likely not going to pull off the shot. Then you opponent will have an easy two putt for a win. But, if your typical game is to lay up and wedge it in you will have a much better chance at three which is still likely to tie your opponent. Of course, if you have the ability to drive the green and you typically play aggresively then go for it.

On the particular hole we are talking about it is 336 yards. There is a cross bunker about 20 to 30 yards short of the green if memory serves correct. That means you need to fly it nearly 280-290 yards to have a chance to reach the green. Going over the green is absolute death unless the pin is in the very front. Left is not good - the bunker is deep and the green is deceiving in how much it runs away from you. Right would be the spot to miss but it is hard to get to because the angle off the tee is blocked by trees. And if you come up short in that cross bunker you have a long bunker shot to a skyline green where you know long is dead. I think hitting that green or leaving yourself with a relatively easy up and down is a pretty low percentage play.

A hole that could be interesting (a la 14 at Torrey Pines) is 14 at #2. There are  couple of cross bunkers that jut into the fairway but the possibilities of driving the green are much better. But there are still difficult up and downs if the green isn't hit.

[JohnV]

The USGA announced ...

Why is the USGA compelled to announce the shortening of the hole?  Are the also providing the hole locations (prior to the morning of) for the days that they will be shortening the hole?

Why not surprise the players ...

The USGA published the yardages for the course in advance and #3 had two yardages listed for it.  But, they did throw in a surprise as #13 was also moved up about 50 or 60 yards.  #3 didn't matter today as it was into the wind and I doubt many players tried it.  #13 was reachable I was with the Wesley Bryan and Jason Bittick match.  Bryan was 2 up coming to 13.  He laid up with an iron.  Bittick waited 5 minutes for the green to clear.  He hit it long enough, but was left and ended up at the far end of the left front bunker almost pin high.  The ball was well below his feet and he had to keep his right foot out of the bunker.  In the end Bryan made 4 and Bittick made 5 to drop to 3 down.  He lost 4 and 3 on 15.

[JohnV]

For all the details on the match I was with, see my blog:

http://freedrop.wordpress.com

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