[Jason McNamara]

Courses that Should be on the List

Ian, what about Royal Ottawa?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

You know I'm NOT insinuating you've nominated Scarboro for such a high ranking because of your own work. Top-15 is simply high billing. I guess we did have it in OUR top-15 Canadian courses here at GolfClubAtlas. I forgot. Either way, I'm going to try to visit Scarboro Wednesday, if possible.

Philippe,

Brilliantly candid comments as usual 

Jason,

I firmly believe Royal Ottawa has tremendous potential; very similar potential to Royal Colwood. Someone -- or a group of golfers -- at each of these clubs who see this potential need to emerge... 

[Ian Andrew]

Good call on Royal Ottawa

Bunkering is not so good - but I really like that course otherwise.

That's a top 50 for me.

[Gerry B]

a flawed list as usual

some observations:

cannot comment on #1 - local bias disqualifies me - however i hosted a member of 2 prominent us clubs this weekend who was blown away -played 3 days in a row and he liked the course more each time he played it. he has played virtually every course in the top 50 in the us plus many abroad as well as most of the hidden gems  - ie he knows what he is talking about.

beacon hall at #6 is a joke - it is good but there are many others that are better

scarboro and st thomas rankings are flawed  -way too low in the rankings  - was at scarboro on friday the recent work there is outstanding - nice job ian. top 15 might be a stretch but top 25 for sure. st thomas might be the most underrated course in canada that i have played - might be in my top 10.

beaconsfield and mt bruno are also ranked too low

have not played cataraqui -but heard very good things about it

[Mike_Clayton]

Jeff,

Royal Melbourne has been at the top of the rankings - alomst without debate forever.

Golf Australia (the magazine I write for) has a top 50 list which is good number for here. 100 (Golf Digest) is way too many because the second half of the list is comparing courses that are quite similar in terms of architectural merit.

Spring Valley is a solid course in Melbourne and right on the edge of the top 50.
Tom Doak gave it a 3 but we have done some nice work there that addressed one major criticism he had of the course  - doglegs with too short a shot to the corner.

I think its better than a 3 but that will give you some idea of the second 50.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike,

I think I've seen some photos of Spring Valley, but I don't have enough perspective on the course to compare it to Deerhurst Highlands -- Canada's #50. I've played Deerhurst twice though, and suspect I'd prefer Spring Valley!

As for #1, I'm thinking Royal Melbourne outdoes National GC of Canada; just a hunch 

[Bill_McBride]

The only two courses I've played in Canada are Capilano and Furry Creek. 

If there are six better courses in Canada than Capilano, they are truly wonderful courses.

I don't see Furry Creek on the list.     Great views.

What a contrasting two days that was.  Furry Creek on Wednesday, Capilano on Thursday.

[Greg Murphy]

I've played 17 of the courses Ian has mentioned. My top 10 of those 17, in no particular order, would include:

Banff Springs Golf Club
Blackhawk Golf Club
Wolf Creek Golf Course
Dakota Dunes Golf Links
Riverside Golf and Country Club
Essex Golf and Country Club
National Golf Club of Canada
Devil's Pulpit
Mad River Golf Club
Glen Arbour Golf Course

For me, the following 7 are a cut below:

Stewart Creek Golf Resort
Gallagher's Canyon
Waskesiu
Bell Bay Golf Club
Heritage Pointe Golf Club
Kananaskis - Mount Kidd Course
St. Charles

Stewart Creek is tremendously popular among traveling golfers making the trip to Alberta/BC for some mountain golf. So is Greywolf which I look forward to playing some day.

I had fairly high expectations of all of these courses before playing them. I enjoyed them all but Heritage Pointe, Bell Bay, Kananaskis and St. Charles were mildly disappointing.

It is very nice to see Ian and Rob (in his blog) mention Saskatoon's Riverside. I have played it a handful of times and can't say I've ever enjoyed a golf course any more than the Riverside. Ian's mention of Waskesui is nice to see too. It's like a trip back in time walking those grounds.

Rob mentioned Firerock in his blog. I played it a few days ago, without any expectations or prior knowledge of the course and was very pleasantly surprised. To me, it's a definite cut above, for instance, Heritage Pointe or Kananaskis.

[Jordan Caron]

Scott,

I recently entered the Gorge Vale Open a few weekends back and played it simply because I wanted to look into more of the architecture rather than worry about score.  Furber came in and re-did 16 greens and left #5 & #14 alone.  I believe he also added a few fairway bunkers and some new tees.  The course (especially the back 9) has a wonderful setting but I don't think it's better or more enjoyable then Victoria and Royal Colwood.   Furber put his trademark bunkers and green sites on the course and it just doesn't play or look better then before.  I had a chance to play Royal Mayfair last year and the members said the same things of Furbers work on and around the greens there. Why coures opt for re-designs of greens and not restorations is beyond me.   
Greens #5 and #14 have less contrived slopes on them and play much harder then Furber's greens.  Weather or not those two greens where original AVM greens, I don't know but they certainley have an old school feel to them just like #3 &#7 at Victoria. 

Still, it's a great layout and site, I just think it was a better test around the green before Furber put his hands on it. 

AS for the top 100 list, I have't played the top 10 but I have no idea why Shaughnessey is ahead of Blackhawk.  It's not even a contest.

[Jeff_Mingay]

When will we see some comprehensive restorative-based work done at Macan-designed courses?

I mean, all the Victoria clubs -- Victoria, Colwood, Gorge Vale -- and a number of clubs with Macan-designed courses in the US Pacific Northwest proudly reference Macan at web sites. Yet, no comprehensive restorative-based work... yet.

All over the USA, Ross-, Tillinghast-, Mackenzie-, Flynn-designed courses have been "restored". Here, in Canada, Thompson courses have been "restored". Nothing thus far at Macan-designed courses.

Which are the leading candidates?

I'd put Royal Colwood at the top of the list; and, trust me, the work required there is minimal and relatively inexpensive.

Perhaps this topic deserves its own thread, but which other Macan courses could be "restored" relatively easily and inexpensively?

[Sean Leary]

I don't see Furry Creek on the list.     Great views.

Bill,
Its just behind Silvertip at number 987.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I'd put Royal Colwood at the top of the list; and, trust me, the work required there is minimal and relatively inexpensive.

Perhaps this topic deserves its own thread, but which other Macan courses could be "restored" relatively easily and inexpensively?

But this restoration would require extensive use of a chain saw.  That can be very controversial!

[Robert Thompson]

The ScoreGolf TV show on the Top 100, which happens to have me as a pundit commenting on the list, along with Lorne Rubenstein and host Bob Weeks, is online here: http://scoregolf.com/video/index.cfm?event=Top-100-Golf-Courses-2008&pageXML=/articles/news/2008/August/Up-and-Down-Reaction-to-the-Top-100-and-Recapping-the-CN-Women-s-Open

So yes, Mr. Doak, there was a show on course rating!

[Don Hyslop]

  With 4 courses in the top 10 and 7 in the top 20, Stanley Thompson shows why he was honoured as a person of national historic importance in Canada.

According to Parks Canada a person may qualify for such an award if:
   "A person (or persons) may be designated of national historic significance if that person individually or as the representative of a group made an outstanding and lasting contribution to Canadian history."

Could a golf course architect ask for a better honour than to be recognized as someone who has made a lasting contribution to that country's overall history as a nation.

[Bill_McBride]

Frankly, if we could ever get them restored properly, there's probably a definite top-7 in Canada: Stanley Thompson's top-5 -- Jasper, Banff, St. George's, Capilano and Highlands Links -- plus Colt's Toronto and Hamilton courses. After these courses (properly restored), the debate can begin...

Jeff, I am no expert at all in these matters, but didn't see a lot that needed to be done at Capilano.  It felt like playing in a time capsule.  Wonderful course, naturally some tree cutting could be part of an action plan.  I have no idea what the bunkers looked like long ago, but they were pretty good in 2004 when I played there.  I'll be interested in your thoughts on restoration of Capilano, and thanks.

[Sean Leary]

Frankly, if we could ever get them restored properly, there's probably a definite top-7 in Canada: Stanley Thompson's top-5 -- Jasper, Banff, St. George's, Capilano and Highlands Links -- plus Colt's Toronto and Hamilton courses. After these courses (properly restored), the debate can begin...

Jeff, I am no expert at all in these matters, but didn't see a lot that needed to be done at Capilano.  It felt like playing in a time capsule.  Wonderful course, naturally some tree cutting could be part of an action plan.  I have no idea what the bunkers looked like long ago, but they were pretty good in 2004 when I played there.  I'll be interested in your thoughts on restoration of Capilano, and thanks.

What did the trees look like long ago? That course was cut from a forest, no?

[Bob Jenkins]

Jeff, Bill, etc.

I was lucky enough to play Capilano a few weeks ago with John Mayhugh and Sean Leary of this group. It was my first game up there in 5 or 6 years and walking around it again reminded me of how special the place really is. Bill seems to agree.

I will always remember John Mayhugh's smile after putting out on 6, a short, downhill par 4 with an amazing green complex. John stood still, smiling and looking back up the hill, trying to remember details. The trick on that hole is to hit your approach short enough to get a kick forward, over a small collection area in front of the green. If you hit a short iron too far, it just stays in the collection area. Landing on the green can result in you rolling right over to the back, if the approach is not well placed.

Bill, regarding restoration, Capilano is basically true to its roots and has changed very little since Stanley Thompson designed the course. On the club website  www.capilanogolf.com  , under the course description, is information on the minor changes that have been made to the course over the years. I do believe, however, that the bunkers must have been restored to some extent as I recall playing there years ago and the bunkers then were not as impressive and unique as they seem to be now.

Capilano is a jewel.

[Ian Andrew]

These are construction photos from Capilano

This is the 15th


This one I'm not sure

[Rob Rigg]

In the grand scheme of things this question is fairly irrelevant but I am curious if anyone
has played both Summit and Rosedale?

I grew up caddying at Rosedale and playing at Summit but I have not been back to either in many years so am unsure if any major updates have occurred.

I always felt like Summit was one of the most interesting courses to play in Toronto because it has a gorgeous setting with many unique holes which you either love or hate (#6, #7, #11, #12, #16) along with solid starting and finishing holes and some really enjoyable elevated tee shots.

Rosedale, on the other hand, always played quite short with some very average holes, a lack of character and some course updates that never integrated with the original design.

Yet, Rosedale is above Summit in the rankings and I noticed that some of the responses rated Rosedale quite highly?

Do I have a selective memory combined with home course bias?

[Bill_McBride]

These are construction photos from Capilano

This is the 15th


This one I'm not sure

Ian, if the first photo is #15 (and I'm not sure it is, I seem to recall a mountain peak framed in the hole's corridor, don't you love Stanley Thompson), it must be #17.  Almost all the other holes either play down toward the harbor or uphill away from the harbor but the clubhouse hill blocks the view of the mountains.  The second photo is most likely #17.  #15 and #17 both play away from the clubhouse toward the mountain peaks.

Yes, Bob, I thought it was great and a jewel in its own class.  What a home course Capilano would be.

[henrye]

In the grand scheme of things this question is fairly irrelevant but I am curious if anyone
has played both Summit and Rosedale?

I grew up caddying at Rosedale and playing at Summit but I have not been back to either in many years so am unsure if any major updates have occurred.

I always felt like Summit was one of the most interesting courses to play in Toronto because it has a gorgeous setting with many unique holes which you either love or hate (#6, #7, #11, #12, #16) along with solid starting and finishing holes and some really enjoyable elevated tee shots.

Rosedale, on the other hand, always played quite short with some very average holes, a lack of character and some course updates that never integrated with the original design.

Yet, Rosedale is above Summit in the rankings and I noticed that some of the responses rated Rosedale quite highly?

Do I have a selective memory combined with home course bias?

I would say you're bang on Rob.  I've played both many many times and Summit is the better course.  Rosedale is a great club with an average course.  I'm actually amazed it makes the top 100.  Ben & Ian may disagree, but what do those guys know about golf architecture?

[Matthew MacKay]

HenryE, have you seen Rosedale since the renovation/restoration...it has certainly improved and is much more Ross-like. I do agree that Summit is a wonderful golf course and probably in a league with Rosedale.

I don't get too wound up by these rankings anymore...I've seen most on the list and know my own favorites; I'm cool with that. When you have a fairly small panel comprised of every type of golfer you're bound to get a dog's breakfast. I suspect very few courses are consensus picks as top 10, which is why I wish they would publish the points that each course garnered.

I posted these brief thoughts on Rob's blog last week...

Of those I’ve played…

Too High (to varying degrees): Beacon Hall, Crowbush, Royal Montreal, Rocky Crest, Taboo, Glen Abbey, Bigwin, Pulpit, Stewart Creek, King Valley, Glen Arbour, Copper Creek, Deerhurst, Deer Ridge, Angus South, Bayview

Too Low (to varying degrees): Muskoka Bay, Eagle’s Nest, Oviinbyrd, St. Thomas, Scarboro, Rosedale, Essex, Summit, Bruno, Ridge at Manitou, Cataraqui, Lookout Point, Laval Sur Le Lac, Wildfire, Thornhill, Mad River

Omissions: Kawartha, Royal Ottawa, Chateau Montebello, The Rock (yes, it still has a few wonky holes but most of it is very good), Cherry Hill, Grandview, Galt, Oshawa, Cutten Club (post-restoration), Highland CC (London), Islington

[henrye]

HenryE, have you seen Rosedale since the renovation/restoration..

Yes.  Apologize if you're a member.

[John Mayhugh]

Jeff, Bill, etc.

I was lucky enough to play Capilano a few weeks ago with John Mayhugh and Sean Leary of this group. It was my first game up there in 5 or 6 years and walking around it again reminded me of how special the place really is. Bill seems to agree.

I will always remember John Mayhugh's smile after putting out on 6, a short, downhill par 4 with an amazing green complex. John stood still, smiling and looking back up the hill, trying to remember details. The trick on that hole is to hit your approach short enough to get a kick forward, over a small collection area in front of the green. If you hit a short iron too far, it just stays in the collection area. Landing on the green can result in you rolling right over to the back, if the approach is not well placed.

Bill, regarding restoration, Capilano is basically true to its roots and has changed very little since Stanley Thompson designed the course. On the club website  www.capilanogolf.com  , under the course description, is information on the minor changes that have been made to the course over the years. I do believe, however, that the bunkers must have been restored to some extent as I recall playing there years ago and the bunkers then were not as impressive and unique as they seem to be now.

Capilano is a jewel.

What a thrill it would be to play Capilano every day.  It's definitely in my top 10 great vibe category.  I won't say too much more about it here as it's worth a more detailed post and photos of its own.

The sixth hole Bob mentioned.  This was the last of the downhill opening holes.  The landing area is not fully visible from the tee.  The hole was around 400 yards but played much shorter.


Here's the approach from the fairway.  Not that I was hitting from there.


Greenside bunkering from the left.


And from the back of the green looking back up towards the tee.  You can see a little bit of the green contours here.  Unfortunately the photos don't capture everything.

[John Mayhugh]

Ian, if the first photo is #15 (and I'm not sure it is, I seem to recall a mountain peak framed in the hole's corridor, don't you love Stanley Thompson)

Great memory.  Here's what the 15th looked like from the tee a few weeks ago.

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